"AestheticsInMotion" (aestheticsinmotion)
01/30/2018 at 22:54 • Filed to: None
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"AestheticsInMotion" (aestheticsinmotion)
01/30/2018 at 22:54 • Filed to: None | 3
| 24 |
I could cancel my order and get all the monies back from the turbo kit, save up for a few months and buy a brand new, built longblock with a cnc’d head, spec’d to handle sustained RPM of 8400, flowing 20% better than stock at minimum and built for 150 hours of track life, which basically means 7-9 years of normal daily driving and occasional racing.
The turbo kit is fantastic... But. It’s almost TOO good. Serious overkill for a stock engine. Should I wait on boost, and try the built engine route? On the plus side, it’s offered as a joint effort by the designer of the turbo kit (so literally the best person to brainstorm potential future ideas with) and the guy who designed the cnc head, Mr 949 Racing himself, who is a Miata genius. Designed my suspension, along with more race-proven parts for the greater Miata community than probably any other single person.
What I’m trying to say is... I know I’ll be getting the absolute best whether I get the turbo kit, or do the Longblock. Engine first (with standalone ECU) I’ll gain roughly 20hp with a decent tune, which is huge for a BP. Plus the aforementioned rev limiter increase. And it would quite literally be the best base for future forced induction, easily handling the 300hp I was gunning for with Ze turbo without breaking a sweat. While retaining OEM driveability and longevity. Gaaaaah there are too many choices. Nevermind
Im selling the Miata and buying a Corolla.
Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
> AestheticsInMotion
01/30/2018 at 23:12 |
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I’m a fan of getting as much power from natural aspiration as possible before considering turbos. A turbo on an engine not originally designed for it could be problematic.
DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time
> AestheticsInMotion
01/30/2018 at 23:19 |
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I’d do the long block! Having that high of a redline would be amazing! Plus I think the power delivery of this would be much more fitting for a Miata. I think a turbo would just be too much torque for it, while this would be like an actual race car.
You’d be like Tekumi but with a Miata!
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AestheticsInMotion
> DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time
01/30/2018 at 23:26 |
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I’m leaning towards the longblock. But it would 100% be turbo endowed at some point. My only drive in a turbo Miata was heavenly. 325hp at the wheels, fat torque curve on 275 tires.... Honda transmission. Good god that thing was the most fun I’ve had on 4 wheels.
StudyStudyStudy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/30/2018 at 23:28 |
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What are we talking about finance wise? Because if the built miata motor costs more than a couple grand we are in the “better to swap in another engine” territory. JV6 makes over 200hp stock with almost double the miata’s torque. K20 will rev to 8k+ happily while making even more power than the built motor making 160hp in the low spec and over 200 at the higher spec. Heck even a rotary engine could come into play, and those things rev to the moon.
Realistically it kind of depends on the health of your motor. If it is on its way out, then better to build from the bottom up, but if it still has life to give, getting a built motor now you kind of lose out on the value left in the motor. That’s what I did, I boosted first, and when the motor shows signs of wearing out is when I’ll look into a built bottom end.
gettingoldercarguy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/30/2018 at 23:29 |
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Driving in the mountains, you’ll appreciate boost. Also the added torque, even though not nearly as predictable in delivery as naturally aspirated will make any sideways driving antics you want to do more easily achieved.
Asidefrom that, the way the bmep from forced induction develops over the stroke is very different than naturally aspirated so it can be easier overall on certain bottom end parts.
The lack of need for revs with a turbo will bode well for reliability. If something does pop, a stock longblock is certainly cheaper than a built one.
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gettingoldercarguy
> Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
01/30/2018 at 23:30 |
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Do you even 323gtx bro?
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gettingoldercarguy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/30/2018 at 23:33 |
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Did you see the latest Grassroots Motorsports where they supercharged a Miata like yours for about $200?
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AestheticsInMotion
> StudyStudyStudy
01/30/2018 at 23:44 |
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Oh man, I know. I would view the built motor as step 1 of 2, the next being forced induction. Complete waste of money if I just left it NA since I’m not racing with class limitations, but it starts to make more sense with moderate to large power goals and OEM driveability in mind. I’m pretty deadset on going turbo, if for nothing else than to just experience the build, and this particular built motor + turbo kit should equal a very reliable setup with just about zero tinkering needed after initial setup.
Cost wise, at this point junkyard LS swap would probably make the most sense for 300hp. But I don’t feel quite knowledgeable enough to source all the parts and actually perform the swap, whether it’s an LS or a K swap. Plus the lack of space for a slow build. I’m willing to pay a bit more at this point for OTS components in a proven package with good support behind the build
I actually HAD a JV6 from... An Odyssey I think? That was the original plan, but you have to change around the steering geometry, mess with some suspension stuff and the current offerings for mounting solutions seemed to be pretty problematic, according to a few build threads I was following. That engine is going in a friend’s older Volvo now
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AestheticsInMotion
> gettingoldercarguy
01/30/2018 at 23:50 |
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Just checked it out! At least the beginning, that looks quite interesting. I’ll definitely be following along.
That said... He already has a $1200 standalone ECU and a few other supporting mods, along with what seems to be some pretty good fab skills. I’m guessing all in, fabbing things himself and sourcing any other parts from junkyards total will be $2000? An m45 blower on a 1.6 should boost hp by about 50-60 at maximum safe psi. Certainly not bad! But I’m hoping to do quite a bit more with this car. I would love to buy the cheapest miata I could find and do a junkyard build though... Someone give me some garage space please!
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AestheticsInMotion
> gettingoldercarguy
01/30/2018 at 23:52 |
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That last part is key. If I go the built motor direction before turbo, I’d try to have it done to be as reliable as possible, but.... God forbid something DID happen.... Yeah. Wouldn’t be able to just replace it
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AestheticsInMotion
> gettingoldercarguy
01/31/2018 at 00:02 |
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To be fair, it was at least transverse in that application, so didn’t have the terrible cooling woes of the Miata!
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gettingoldercarguy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 00:10 |
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Na build is very different than a turbo builds too.
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gettingoldercarguy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 00:41 |
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I bet you can get them used for cheap. Metal forming isn’t impossible with a vice and a few hammers. Brackets make out of polystyrene. attach to core piece with bolts so they’re already marked, heat up cheap knife to cut polystyrene plate. Make brackets that require more strength out of wood to test mount location. To form metal brackets, dremel if ballsy, machinist if spendy. Find welding class at community college and see if instructor can recommend talented student to practice.
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gettingoldercarguy
> gettingoldercarguy
01/31/2018 at 00:43 |
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You’ll also be one piece closer to your na or turbo builod if you buy the ecu.
sony1492
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 00:43 |
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I thought built na motors can be high strung and finicky.
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gettingoldercarguy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 00:44 |
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Yeah, but I think the engine can take it and has a long aftermarket history of being able to run hard even in high heat. This isn’t uncharted territory.
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AestheticsInMotion
> gettingoldercarguy
01/31/2018 at 00:53 |
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“welding class at community College...”
Be right back, looking at my local cc programs! Now I want to make brackets. There’s gotta be something I need brackets for...
I didn’t realize the price difference between the DIY point-to-point ECU and the Pro ECU was that much. Right on
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AestheticsInMotion
> gettingoldercarguy
01/31/2018 at 00:54 |
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Yep, the Megasquirt ECU is what I’ll go with regardless of other build plans. Just have to decide which of the 4 or 5 slightly different units to get
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AestheticsInMotion
> sony1492
01/31/2018 at 01:01 |
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Wait... Are you talking naturally aspirated or NA Miata. For the Miata, depends on application, and who built them, with what. These guys have built tons of motors that are an absolute dream in terms of driveability, and they’re anything but finicky.
If you mean naturally aspirated na miata engine... Yeah, if going for high power with the plan to stay naturally aspirated, definitely. Terrible for street use, I’ve only ever seen guys go this route for spec miata or just for bragging rights to have the most powerful NA build (which is like 190hp or something, for well over $15,000 invested. Practically useless in traffic. No thanks).
The engine I’d have built would be for eventual forced induction
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gettingoldercarguy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 01:11 |
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If you have the time you’ll love those classes. .You can do.so much more.
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sony1492
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 01:59 |
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I guess I read it wrong. I thought you were contemplating going for high naturally aspirated power and then going turbo on the same setup. Which i imagine would be least reliable way to go.
But your saying a mildly built (But still expensive) motor with an eye towards forced induction? I imagine it would make more sense to go turbo first and then move on to a special head once you start running too much boost/needing more power.
Just to continue muddying the waters. A v8 would be twice as smooth, provide low end torque, be more durable/reliable, and make more power(possibly, but at least 200 whp).
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AestheticsInMotion
> sony1492
01/31/2018 at 02:33 |
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Basically going all-in to make the best street motor in a turbo application. Strong enough to handle a high redline without fear of damage, literally the best head design available for the BP, forged everything blah blah blah. Pricey, but still way less than trying to build a high-power naturally aspirated BP.
Oh and I guess technically it would be a swap. Based off of the VVT 01-05 NB Miata engine which even when stock is already much superior to my current NA8. One issue is my current engine is pretty beat, the head definitely needs to be replaced. Hopefully not so for the block, but I haven’t really had a chance to look into it yet.
V8 would be wonderful, but the eengine/turbo is pretty simple to setup. The V8 swap... Even with plenty of examples nowadays there’s still a lot of fabwork that I don’t really know how to do. And lots of part sourcing I’m not comfortable with. I wouldn’t have the slightest clue telling a good t5 transmission apart from a bad one. And the Borg-warner is pretty great for low end torque in this application. Both tuned to their max potential, I’ve generally seen this turbo have much better torque figures across the board than any of the popular superchargers, whether it’s a cheap m45 blower or a full rotrex kit.
Here’s a quick glimpse... Same cnc head, very similar bottom end and the same turbo kit, with the slightly larger 6758. At 10psi it’s detuned quite a bit to give the transmission a chance. From what I’ve seen the 6258 I would add should give me almost the exact same curve as below, but with even quicker response and more low-end torque. And still be able to hit over 35ohp if desired, whereas the bigger 6758 does fine at the 300hp numbers seen below, but reaaaaally shines when you’re in the 375-450 range.
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StudyStudyStudy
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 14:21 |
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Hmm those kits aren’t as affordable as I thought they might be. If turbo is your end game then I would potentially play around with it now rather than later. The flow of the head isn’t as important with boost since you can just force more air by running higher pressure to a certain point. The better the head flows the more multiplicative it will be, but the line that crosses with diminishing return is probably on the high side. Also would be good to run into problems with the not as valuable block getting the tune and stuff sorted for base values before you put a very valuable built block in.
I would say if the plan is to lift it and still go off road a turbo may not be the greatest power delivery, like a sudden brake in traction I imagine is not as helpful. Have you considered superchargers? I suppose though you could run an electronic boost controller and ramp the boost on over the rev range with a different map.
MM54
> AestheticsInMotion
01/31/2018 at 19:34 |
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My 2 cents: Get the turbo kit, and use the difference in cost between that and the built engine to buy another stock engine. Turbo it as it sits, then rebuild the other one. When it’s ready and/or the stock one lets go, just swap it in - you’ll already have the plumbing and everything set up to go turbo on the built one.