Political Discussion on Flooding

"Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs" (yowen) 08/31/2017 at 14:46 • Filed to: None

6

51

The below article (in Dutch) translates to:

As government you have 3 options, prevention, modification of structures or rebuild afterwards. The Netherlands has over the centuries embraced the former. Houston has chosen the latter.

Texas operates as a classic example of a republican state. The freedom of the individual takes preference over the needs of the whole. Government interference is seen as harmful. For prominent politicians it’s political suicide to build something as major as a storm surge barrier or dyke.

Disaster response is an American manner of doing things. There is a structure for it. States can, during times of disaster, count on money from Washington.

My mom, who lives in the Netherlands (as did I for 14 years), sent this to me and it’s always interesting to read an international perspective on things. Especially when said perspective comes from a country that is known the world over for its expertise in flood prevention. We reached out to the Dutch after Katrina and I have ZERO doubt that Houston will be reach out post-Harvey.

It’s especially that last paragraph that gets me. We have billion dollar funds when it comes to aiding cities and regions post-disaster. But why aren’t those funds going to preventing the next big disaster? At some point this has to change. I just heard on the radio that 40% of businesses that close during a flood never reopen. I’ve heard figures into the tens of millions of dollars for what it would take to rebuild. After we’ve put our resources toward those affected by Harvey, we should be putting resources toward areas that could be next. But I fear we’ll do the same. We’ll wait for the next disaster and only THEN will we react.

I in no way want to belittle the bravery, compassion, badassery and collaboration that have been displayed by the Texans affected and by people throughout our nation who have rolled up their sleeves to assist in rescue, rebuilding and whatever else is needed. I just wish it hadn’t been necessary. We really get to know what people are made of, it brings out the best in us. But at what cost?

„Je hebt als overheid drie paden”, zegt Brand aan de telefoon. „Preventie, aanpassing van gebouwen en herbouw achteraf. Nederland heeft zich gedurende eeuwen het eerste eigen gemaakt. Houston kiest steeds voor het laatste.”

Texas handelt als klassiek-Republikeinse staat, zegt Brand. „De vrijheid van het individu krijgt voorrang boven het collectief belang. Inmenging van de overheid vooraf wordt als kwalijk gezien. Voor prominente politici is het electorale zelfmoord over zoiets ingrijpends als een stormvloedkering of een dijk te beginnen.

Rampenbestrijding is ook echt de Amerikaanse aanpak. Er bestaat een structuur voor. Staten kunnen bij een ramp rekenen op geld uit Washington.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 14:55

3

im in the netherlands.. had a guy on the news friday i think saying we are working on flood defenses (or planning them) since katrina.. but they can only make any progress in the imediate after math of a disaster as as soon as the media attention dies off so does the funding and political interest.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 08/31/2017 at 15:05

2

Makes sense, as the quote above says, it’s political suicide for politicians to invest in this if it’s not in the public’s immediate interest, it’s seen as government overreach.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:08

2

We’re not a preventative country, because that costs money. We’d rather play Russian roulette with the lives of the poor.

We do the same on everything, save pennies now only to cost us dollars later. It’s why I just had to replace the entire HVAC system on a school built 17 years ago (by a different firm).

TorqueToYield > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:09

1

Government overreach to prevent massive flooding and loss of life that government then needs to step in and clean up. Makes sense.

Can’t wait for the pull yourself up by the bootstrap Texans to turn down Federal and state aid so they can live the libertarian BS they talk about.

CobraJoe > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:14

6

We have billion dollar funds when it comes to aiding cities and regions post-disaster. But why aren’t those funds going to preventing the next big disaster?

Where exactly should some of those funds go?

The biggest problem with that article is the fact that Texas is 19 times bigger than the Netherlands, yet only 1.5 times the population.

That is an utterly massive area to protect, but without many taxpayers to pay for it. Say they did manage to completely prep Houston for the next 500 year flood, what happens when the next hurricane blows inland a little more? Or hits Mississippi instead? Or Florida? Or South Carolina? Or what if it’s the wind of a hurricane that causes the damage? Or a tidal wave? Or tornadoes? Or drought? Or earthquakes?

The Netherlands has some advantage, they know what to prepare for, and they have a smaller area of land to prepare. Trying to prep the entire coastline of the Gulf of Mexico to be ready for the extremely rare amount of rains that Harvey produced would be a very expensive project to complete and maintain and still might not prevent the next natural disaster.

I’d love to see better preparations to prevent the disaster that Harvey caused, but realistically it’s not possible. The best realistic solutions are to prepare local areas as good as they can, and to be better organized and prepared to help out.

For Sweden > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:14

2

Houston’s not built on land reclaimed from the sea, not that a sea wall would have helped against one-and-a-third meters of rain.

PatBateman > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:17

8

Houston is made for floods. The bayou system, levees, preventative reservoirs, and even the highway systems are all designed to channel unexpected rain waters out of the city as expeditiously as possible. Entire neighborhoods have massive earthen walls built around them to protect against river and creek flooding (the vast majority are expected to hold) in addition to multiple massive pumps that will remove water from their sewer systems.

Taxing authorities are made to make levees and improve upon them (“Levee Improvement Districts”), and they do a damn good job. The Army Corps of Engineers have helped design our infrastructure to handle the natural disaster possibilities, and I’m pretty sure that they aren’t a department of our “republican state”.

I was about to get angry about what this Dutch publication said, but then I remembered that I don’t care what they say, especially when it’s so willfully ignorant of the facts. Anyone else curious what would happen to Amsterdam if they got 50" of rain in three days + a storm surge?

PatBateman > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:19

0

No it’s not. It happens all the time down here.

For Sweden > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 15:19

1

Depends; are the wooden shoes treated against water? [ba dum tsh]

Nothing > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:21

0

I get the overall point, but using Houston as an example in regards to coastal flooding isn’t appropriate in this case. The main cause of the flooding was the massive amount of rainfall.

garagemonkee > For Sweden 08/31/2017 at 15:22

2

In the event of unexpected 800-year flooding, your shoes can be used as a flotation device.

PatBateman > TorqueToYield 08/31/2017 at 15:26

1

1. Keep your snarky political jabs to yourself until my neighbors stop losing their homes from rising flood waters/dying.

2. We get constant new flood and infrastructure improvement projects proposed and approved down here. We even pay more on our taxes to do it, and most of us do it gladly. No one commits political suicide by doing so.

PatBateman > For Sweden 08/31/2017 at 15:27

1

They’d be too high to get wet.

GET IT?!

#Icandostupidstereotypestoo

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 08/31/2017 at 15:33

2

Then the news is flooded, eh poor choice of words, dominated by stories of heroism and compassion. But it pains me that it could’ve all been avoided. The news media paints a picture of American bravery and tenacity, “we will rebuild” “we’re awesome” “America Fuck yeah!”.

And while that’s all true. Behind that is the hidden fact that it was preventable at least to some degree.

PatBateman > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 08/31/2017 at 15:34

0

Read my comment on this post.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Nothing 08/31/2017 at 15:34

0

Water management is still key to that. Isn’t it? The fact that Houston is in a low-lying area is still key to that isn’t it?

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 15:36

0

Point 2 is good to hear! I hope with lessons learned from this disaster they’ll continue that good work.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 15:44

2

“it’s so willfully ignorant of the facts”

This came from a professor at a Dutch university that works closely with Texas A&M on flood prevention. They know their stuff. And to call a country of which the vast majority of the population lives below water level ignorant is a stretch. This article I think is absolutely from a credible and well informed source.

I know it at times directly attacks ideas, beliefs and ways of doing things here in the US. But they are at times flawed.

I was somewhat ignorant of some facts, so i apologize for that. It’s great to hear that infrastructure has done a great job at mitigating the extent of the disaster.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > For Sweden 08/31/2017 at 15:47

0

Is that true though? Didn’t many bodies of water overflow due to the rainfall? Experts have stated that new sea walls and flood gates have been needed.

d15b > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:47

0

Unfortunately, that is now how Americans think.

For Sweden > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:49

0

The rivers spilled over their banks, but the solution to that would be sea walls along the river. I don’t think new sea walls will be needed, but repairs will certainly be needed after such a storm.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > CobraJoe 08/31/2017 at 15:49

2

Texas is 19x bigger, but are the flood prone areas 19x bigger?

“realistically it’s not possible”

It may not have been entirely preventable, but it’s entirely possible that the extent or impact of the hurricane could’ve been substantially mitigated with reasonable measures.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > For Sweden 08/31/2017 at 15:58

1

Yeah and really I won’t pretend to know what’s needed, nor can I say with certainty that they could’ve/should’ve done better. But there are certainly plenty of people out there that believe that to be true.

The reason I found it interesting is because the narrative presented fits in perfectly with what I’m seeing. We are reluctant to invest in infrastructure, it’s a fact, shit’s crumbling everywhere. On top of that our politics often favor short term goals that are measurable and visible to constituents. And I can’t help but think if that weren’t our way of doing things, the impact could’ve been lessened.

PatBateman > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 15:58

0

We’ve been upgrading our area for over a century. After the worst natural disaster in US history (Hurricane of 1900, Galveston), the city and state RAISED THE CITY 17 FEET and built a sea wall to protect the city from the surge. Our levee systems are constantly being reinforced and raised. Our bayou systems can be locked in certain places to reduce the amount of water that hits the rivers at one time.

Natural disasters happen, and unfortunately they cannot be fully predicted nor planned for. We’ll learn from this and make some changes to certain levees and bayou systems, just as we have after every natural disaster.

PatBateman > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 16:02

0

I didn’t call the country “ignorant”, I called the thought that Houston doesn’t prepare for floods proactively as “ignorant”.

Could I ask what they had to say about a category one hurricane decimating New Jersey? Did they criticize them for not having a seawall along their coast?

And I’ll continue to say that anyone who thinks that Houston doesn’t prepare for huge floods is ignorant of the facts.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 16:05

0

I agree with everything you’ve stated I don’t want to come in here pretending to be an expert. I presented the narrative because I think there is likely some truth to it. There’s truth to both sides of this.

We can never fully predict, but we can prepare and we did to a fairly great extent from the sounds of it. Given the narrative that was presented I’m sure more could’ve been done, but hindsight is perfect. We will learn from this and we will make improvements.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 16:09

0

That’s all fair. The only thing I wished to convey is that they are experts by necessity and have had and will continue to have valuable knowledge.

I know that Houston also by necessity HAS to prepare for flooding. The narrative I posted neither confirms or denies that Houston has done so. That’s probably mostly because I posted an excerpt. But I think there’s some truth to it and that is has prevented some preparedness from happening, but far from all of it. In part based on what you are telling me.

PatBateman > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 16:20

0

The impact was mitigated. We’re not all underwater.

It’s impossible to completely mitigate what just happened.

PatBateman > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 16:25

1

A publication in an area that gets 60% of the rain that Houston gets in a year is trying to say that Houston doesn’t prepare for flooding as well as they do.

K.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 16:35

3

I moved to Louisiana to help with recovery efforts following Katrina. Part of that was some collaborative work with the Dutch. I realized a few things.

The Netherlands have a looooong history of living on the water and dealing with floods. Much of their early economy was based on peat farming, which comprised much of the ground under their feet. They developed methods of harvesting (mining?) the peat which required the construction of dykes (levees) all around their land. They estimate that they have about 2,200 miles of levees.

Before we go any further on that, let’s consider the land area and population of the Netherlands. They have roughly 17 million people crammed into about 16,000 square miles. That’s slightly less than the population of Florida stacked into an area slightly larger than Maryland. That’s stuffing the population of our fourth most populated state into the boundaries of our 41st largest (9th smallest) state.

In other words, they have a LOT of people crammed into a relatively small area.

Their land is riddled with flood control structures and a complex organization of people to coordinate and control the operation of those structures. They have 22 levee boards with 11,000 employees and many more volunteers. That works out to be roughly five employees for every mile of levee.

Louisiana, a state that has three times the area of the Netherlands but one-quarter of the population, has 2,800 miles of levees. There are 23 levee districts employing less than 200 people. That’s one employee for every 14 miles of levee. That also doesn’t account for the many, many miles of private and local levees. 

And that’s just one state.

While I agree that there needs to be a lot more funding put towards our flood protection systems in the U.S., one of the things we learned by working with the Dutch post-Katrina is that our systems are fundamentally different. What works over there won’t work over here. We don’t have the same land area, we don’t have the same drainage area, we don’t have the same population density, and, even though we may have similar tax structures to pay for levee construction and maintenance, we don’t have the same level of funding.

TL;DR : People like to compare us to the Dutch when it comes to flood protection, but it’s apples and oranges when you compare population, land areas, drainage areas, and funding.

CobraJoe > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 16:44

1

It may not have been entirely preventable, but it’s entirely possible that the extent or impact of the hurricane could’ve been substantially mitigated with reasonable measures.

Do you really think that reasonable measures weren’t already in place? Any city that sees rain has some sort of system to deal with larger than normal rainfall.

Harvey was not a reasonable storm, it dropped the equivalent of an entire year’s worth of rain on Houston. If that 50 inches of rain is spread evenly across the entire area of Houston, that’s equal to roughly half a cubic mile of water, and that’s not counting surrounding areas. The whole reason why this is such a tragedy is because it’s a storm of such impossible magnitude.

It’s easy to say now that “They should have been better prepared.”, but why would anyone have said that before? If existing flood control systems have never been at 100% capacity, why would you spend money to increase them when you could spend that money on economic growth or helping homeless people or public transportation or police training or so many other things.

Sorry for the rant, I just get overly annoyed with armchair politicians.

duurtlang > TheRealBicycleBuck 08/31/2017 at 16:52

2

I don’t think anyone makes a direct comparison. The point of that article was that there are 3 strategies; prevention, modification of structures or rebuild afterwards. The US is said to be more likely than others to pick the latter. That’s not a necessary a good or a bad thing at all, it’s just different.

AestheticsInMotion > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 17:26

0

A vbq

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 21:09

0

the levees only work if the flooding is upstream of the area being protected. If the flooding from rain is what gets you the levees only act as mini resiviurs.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 08/31/2017 at 21:17

0

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/why-cities-flood/538251/

The major problems Houston faces is due to intense sudden rainfall, meeting a surface that has little permiability. Being flat as a pancake doesn’t help.

What should be pushed for is either homes on stilts or ones that can float when that sudden storm hits.

PatBateman > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/31/2017 at 21:27

0

Correct. And that’s what’s flooding areas around me right now: the water coming from upstream.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > PatBateman 08/31/2017 at 21:34

0

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/donald-trump-1/2017/08/30/chris-christie-dogging-cruz-oversandy-vote-going-let-get-away

Years ago the situation was reversed, entire comunities were devestated and a prominant politician from your state decided to make a name for himself.

Or the tornados in Ok

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/05/why-we-cant-forget-oklahomas-senators-voted-against-sandy-relief/315038/

If you can’t see the anger and resentment of folks in the Northeast at the hyocracy of polticans from your area,then we’re at an impass.

PatBateman > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/31/2017 at 22:14

0

Why does everything boil down to politics with some people? There people LITERALLY DYING A FEW FUCKING MILES FROM ME in flood waters. My house has been buzzed by about thirty military helicopters today, all carrying evacuees plucked from rooftops. The flood waters are still rising from rivers getting inundated by downstream flows a few miles from me to my southwest, and my CLOSE friends have had their previous-to-this-morning homes flooded with several feet of water today. And you want to bring up POLITICS?! Our suffering isn’t your political fodder and giggles. If people in the northeast point their noses in the air at us, it’s nothing new. I guess it just shows what kind of people live there. I wonder if they did it during Katrina?

And, quite frankly, if you can’t GET THAT, then we are absolutely at an impasse.

PatBateman > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/31/2017 at 22:15

0

Remind the people being carried by these Chinooks about politics right now. I’m sure they’d love to hear it.

PatBateman > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/31/2017 at 22:17

0

Haha!! I’m sure thes evacuees on this Super Stallion are dying to discuss congressional voting history with you right now. I mean, if they don’t agree, fuck them, right?

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/01/2017 at 08:17

0

Thanks for your thoughts! I think at the end of the day I certainly don’t want to see no preventative measures were taken and I certainly don’t want to imply that think we are stupid, I just think there is at least some truth to the narrative above, they we at least to some extent shot ourselves in the foot. There is a side that says we’ve done all we can and there is a side to this story that says we did nothing, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The truth is nuanced.

In large part I opened this conversation to learn, and I did!

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > CobraJoe 09/01/2017 at 08:23

0

I’ve told several people that I don’t pretend to be an expert. I mostly wanted to present this viewpoint and get people’s thoughts, knowledge and opinions. I’m really not taking sides here, I just thought it was an interesting article because it does strikes some chords with me as far as some things that frustrate me about the way we do things. So I think there has to be at least some truth to it.

I certainly don’t want to imply there is a complete lack of preparedness, but I think our politics and our mentality described above has to have had some effect here.

“when you could spend that money on economic growth or helping homeless people or public transportation or police training or so many other things.”

That first point, is part of our problem, we often tend to put economic growth before anything else.

But again, I don’t want to be confused with an armchair politician who pretends to know it all. I learned that a lot of really great things have already been done as far as preventative measures. More than I had thought. I’m glad I opened this conversation, because I got a much better understanding of Houston and Harvey. I’ve come to believe that the truth probably lies somewhere between the article I quoted AND the comments from people that say “what more could have been done”. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 09/01/2017 at 08:24

0

The thing is, we can build flood protection systems which would mitigate against really, really big floods, but those systems would be really, really big, expensive, and unsightly. The Dutch started out building in flooded areas, so they built with flood prevention in mind. In the U.S., we built in areas that didn’t regularly flood, so when the once-in a lifetime event came along, it caught everybody by surprise. Now it would be exceedingly expensive to fix it.

Oh, and NOBODY could mitigate against 50" of rain.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > PatBateman 09/01/2017 at 09:01

0

The title of the post is “Politcal Discussion on Flooding”.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/01/2017 at 09:52

0

> Oh, and NOBODY could mitigate against 50" of rain.

I think you can mitigate it, but I agree that you can’t entirely prevent adverse affects from that extreme of an amount of rain. 

PatBateman > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 09/01/2017 at 11:09

0

Yes! Yes it is! And do you think that those political discussions should be occurring quite yet?

CobraJoe > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 09/01/2017 at 13:26

0

I certainly don’t want to imply there is a complete lack of preparedness, but I think our politics and our mentality described above has to have had some effect here.

I’m not so sure you can make a blanket statement about preparedness on a national level. So many of these natural disasters are regionally dependent. The Gulf of Mexico and east coast has to worry about the possibility of hurricanes. The midwest has to worry about tornadoes. California has earthquakes. The rockies have potential for avalanches. There is no single nationwide preparedness plan that works for all of the possible natural disasters, so it is down to the cities and states to determine what they need. On a national level, that might look like nothing has been done to prepare, but there are also federal grants to help local areas prepare for disasters. Sometimes it’s so local that even federal grants aren’t necessary. I’m not even sure if it’s required by code, but here in Nebraska, almost all houses (except for trailers) have a solid basement, and that’s the best way to be prepared for a tornado.

Economic growth is important to preparedness too. Tax revenues help pay for the large projects that help prevent flooding (or whatever), new structures have to be built to updated codes which might help control water flow or be safer in a storm or earthquake, even large buildings like stadiums can be used as emergency shelters when the fecal material really hits the fan.

I’ve come to believe that the truth probably lies somewhere between the article I quoted AND the comments from people that say “what more could have been done”.

The best solution always somewhere in between what was thought to be best and what actually would be best. It’s always more difficult to predict what you will need than it is to see where it all went wrong.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > CobraJoe 09/01/2017 at 14:05

0

On a national level? I though we were talking about Harvey in Houston. That’s where I think some of our politics and mentality have gotten in the way of being more prepared than we are. I’m sure parallels can be drawn to any other disaster or tragedy.

I’m talking about the mentality of “oh there is a disaster relief fund, so we’ll behave accordingly when it comes to infrastructure and construction”. I’m talking about the mentality of only taking on projects if they aren’t tantamount to political suicide. I’m talking about shortsightedness in the name of business and short terms success and profits.

Do I think this is unilaterally happening in EVERY case at every level? No I do not, not at all. This country is not completely devoid of good people doing the right thing. But that narrative struck a chord with me, because I’m pessimistic enough that we at least to some extent behave in this fashion.

CobraJoe > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 09/01/2017 at 14:54

0

The blanket statements and other comments made it sound like all American cities and states are in a similar mindset. I was trying to point out that you can’t see the preparation at that level because regional precautions are necessary instead.

I’m talking about the mentality of “oh there is a disaster relief fund, so we’ll behave accordingly when it comes to infrastructure and construction”. I’m talking about the mentality of only taking on projects if they aren’t tantamount to political suicide. I’m talking about shortsightedness in the name of business and short terms success and profits.

I really don’t believe that’s the mentality. If there’s a demonstrable need or even a plausible worry, there is money available at the city, state, or federal level to help protect people. There are full agencies, like the Army Corp of Engineers dedicated to prevent as many disasters as they can (they had to work practically nonstop overtime a few years ago when the Missouri River flooded).

Any politician who goes through the correct channels with proper documentation about the threat shouldn’t be in any worry for their career. The only politicians who truly get into hot water because of a public safety project are corrupt, go way over budget, don’t get the job done, or are pushing some other agenda.

But that narrative struck a chord with me, because I’m pessimistic enough that we at least to some extent behave in this fashion.

I’m optimistic enough to trust the people involved to choose what they believe is best for each situation, but realistic enough to know that they still need to be watched, and that shit can still happen to even the most well prepared.

We absolutely have problems in our current political structure and mindset, but the level of preparation for future natural disasters is rather low on that list, and not because the other problems seem so extreme.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > PatBateman 09/01/2017 at 20:56

0

Did I say people were thumbing their noses at the people of Texas? No, I said “resentment of folks in the Northeast at the hyocracy of polticans from your area” Nice straw man. Nobody is giggling about what is going on.

During Katrina, representatives in the Northeast supported their fellow countrymen   https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/109-2005/h549 there was not a single “nay” vote compared to 67 during Sandy. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/113-2013/h7

The discussion of aid should be brought up for a variety of reasons.

1) Its urgently needed, so that it can be set asside and ready to be used where it will be needed. “ Christie: “Thirty-one days for Andrew victims. Seventeen days for victims of Gustav and Ike. Ten days for victims of Katrina. For the victims of Sandy in New Jersey, New York and Connecticut, it’s been 66 days, and the wait continues.”

To your response “And do you think that those political discussions should be occurring quite yet?” would you like to wait 2 months like after Sandy?

2.) Size: the aid package is estimated to be 125-175 billion, this won’t appear out of thin air, so we need to get the money allocated ASAP.

3 a) Congress is in the middle of setting the 2018 budget and if a budget isn’t addressed, a governement shutdown could be disastrous to the recovery/rescue/cleanup.

3 b) Before Harvey, the administration wanted to cut 876 million from FEMA budget.    http://jamiedupree.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/30/before-harvey-congress-planned-876-million-cut-in-fema-disaster-relief-funds/

4) “Both senators from Texas sent a letter to President Trump on Friday (aug 25) pushing him to declare a natural disaster for the impending landfall of Hurricane Harvey in order to unlock federal resources.” The discussion of relief funds started before Harvey even made landfall.  

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/texas-sens-ted-cruz-and-john-cornyn-write-to-trump-asking-for-major-disaster-declaration-as-harvey-approaches/article/2632613

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/08/then_and_now_the_texas_lawmakers_asking_for_aid_af.html

“ If people in the northeast point their noses in the air at us, it’s nothing new. I guess it just shows what kind of people live there.” That isn’t being very excellent to one another.

PatBateman > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 09/01/2017 at 21:46

0

It’s not a straw man. Go up to the original comment that I answered. Snarky “bootstraps” comment. Then you jumped in. Welcome.

Dude, I’ve been volunteering all fucking day long helping those in need. Tomorrow, I’ll hopefully be driving aid to harder hit areas in deep east Texas. I’m quite frankly too tired to give a shit about politics or whatever people in the northeast, for whatever reason, feel about Texans. I could give less than a shit about whatever they’re going to argue about in DC. Give us a package, don’t give us a package, what the fuck ever.

If there’s several billion dollars of pork in the bill, tell your senator to vote “no”. I’ll do the same.