"Wheelerguy" (wheelerguy) 08/31/2017 at 02:40 • Filed to: None

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This is how we’re gonna get radicalized: by Christians who did nothing, and Muslims who did something. /s

Understand this: I know it was just that one church. I’m certain others were willing and ready to take in inundated people, that they helped. They made a difference, and God bless them.

But I just sure hope other churches, other business realize that their god, which they believe in, will have them denied passage to heaven because of their actions. This also goes to their sympathizers, and others who just simply won’t ever help the ones who are in deep in floodwater.

I’m a Filipino. Floods like this are nothing new here in the Philippines—heck, at the back of my mind, I’m TopGear-laughing at the fact that for once you guys get to experience what we experience—and we’ve learned our lessons enough that we’ve been able to do the right thing before, during, and after a storm. OK, sure, I’ll give it to you that we’re no better as disaster preparedness than you lot, and believe me, we’ll forget about our own measures in 3 years time. But you guys have had Sandy, Katrina, Andrew. Those three storms could have crippled the Philippines.

Maybe the problem is that you’re the United States. You’re the most powerful country in the world. You’ve got an army, a National Guard, a police that’s enough to rule the world. You think you can take a hit. For us here, we can’t afford another Haiyan/Yolanda. We can’t afford a hyper-typhoon or two hitting our eastern seaboard because that will just fucking incapacitate us. You can. And you got complacent.

It doesn’t really help that other people are using this hurricane to further their agendas. We have that too here in The Philippines, but at least we just focus on getting everything back up first. Hell, even TV stations here have foundations that help out immediately after typhoons. They harp about their help everytime they do, but at least they do something to help the affected citizens.

I guess... I guess it might just take something past Haiyan hitting NYC or NOLA or Florida or the Caribbean before everyone wises up. I won’t wish such a hurricane on any country—I’ve seen what it did to Eastern Visayas and I can’t imagine what would happen had it gone up north to Metro Manila—but things need to change.

I have another burner, try to guess it! > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 02:50

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It’s a stretch to call Joel Osteen’ s “church” a church. It’s just a little bit of paperwork away from an outright scam.

Berang > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 02:57

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Americans love to shit on Christians, when they want to look progressive, because Americans are familiar with Christianity. Christianity in most of its forms is popular here, so people are well aware of its faults, inanities, charlatans, etc. But only the shallow point to other religions (which they invariably have little to no experience with) and bleat on about how those religions are so much better. It’s the same thing with the person who is sure their country is the worst in the world, and every other one is far more enlightened, developed, tolerant, etc., no matter how enlightened, developed, and tolerant their own country is.

Generally speaking though, it is unquestionably a mathematical certainty that more Christians are helping out in this disaster than non-Christians. More than 70% of Americans identify as a Christian of some sort. Whereas Muslims make up less than 1% of the population. Heck even Judiasm which is looked at generally as the “other” “big” religion only accounts for like 2% of Americans. So implying Christians are doing nothing... well it has no basis in reality, just a basis in wanting to make smartass remarks on twitter for internet ass-pats.

(Full disclosure: I am not religious, and only care about this insofar as twitter is full of shit)

Tristan > Berang 08/31/2017 at 03:09

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This is the best way I’ve ever seen this articulated. Thank you.

Berang > Tristan 08/31/2017 at 03:18

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To be honest, I’m just super fucking tired of “atheists” who just hate Christianity. But for some reason, despite being “atheists” are just ok with kissing the asses of any other religion on the rare chance it does something not shitty.

duurtlang > Berang 08/31/2017 at 03:45

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Having never grown up in any religion I don’t hate any group, I only very strongly dislike specific excesses. Having said that, in some ways religion is like smoking. The strongest anti-smoking advocates seem to be former smokers. The strongest anti-(religion X) seem to be former members of that specific religion. As you’ve pointed out, the vast majority of Americans is Christian or at the very least have grown up around Christianity. As a result atheists in the US tend to be former-Christians, and thus are frustrated about Christianity the most. It’s totally logical.

Beyond that, let’s say you’ve got a problem with Christianity and with Islam and you live in the US. As in, a 70% Christian and 1% Muslim country. Virtually all your political leaders adhere to Christianity and virtually none are Muslim. Do you rebel against Christianity or Islam? Given this context singling out Christianity is nothing but logical too, isn’t it?

Where I grew up, the Netherlands, it’s very different. The percentage of Christians has dropped dramatically the last century; as a well educated 34 year old I know of exactly zero people under 50 who attend church (excluding funerals and maybe 1 in 5 marriages). People who believe in a personal god, I know of zero (under 50). Yet, we do have a very visible Muslim minority. ~40% Christian (mostly old people), 5% Muslim (frequently younger people), ~5% ‘other’, ~50% ‘none’. You sense this in society. Kids don’t rebel against Christianity anymore, unless when they grew up in a strict Christian family.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 07:08

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Mate. That is a spectacular piece of writing that deserves to go far further than this particular corner of the internet. So many kudos for the lesson that everyone should at least think about, religious or not. Not enough stars in the firmament.

Sovande > Berang 08/31/2017 at 07:15

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It’s pretty easy to hate Christianity. The shear hypocrisy of the whole religion is staggering. Fuck your neighbors wife on Saturday and then repent on Sunday. On a grander scale: The Crusades, The Inquisition, Westboro Baptist Church, etc. More lives have been lost to the spread of the teachings of Jesus Christ than anything else in the history of mankind. Love thy neighbor, unless they are different at which time tell them to convert or be killed. Weird religion, man.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Berang 08/31/2017 at 07:17

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The problem is that the US doesn’t think about how it looks to those viewing in the outside world. There are a lot of Muslims in the outside world (let alone the rest of us). And their media is no better in standard than the US media. Think on that if you will...

Party-vi > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 08:03

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I bet it was really easy to type this up while your house wasn’t flooded and you weren’t sitting in an emergency shelter. But that’s none of my business.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 08:15

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EL_ULY > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 09:14

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Down on the ground here, everyone is helping out everyone. Once home, that’s when we hear about agendas and who said what on TV and online.

fintail > duurtlang 08/31/2017 at 09:16

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Too bad the younger part isn’t 0%. Going to be some fun demographics there in time.

EL_ULY > duurtlang 08/31/2017 at 09:17

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A lot of Americans to me, especially in the south, pretend to be Christian only when it’s convenient.

“Praise God and Jesus you got moved up to executive assistant” or “Thank Jesus that we got the best deal on this RV. I told you that what Jesus wants and what he decides is always what’s best”

As soon as they get out of their super-church

“Fucking (ethinic group). I bet they are of to cause trouble”

“Duuuude, did you seen that new girl they hire’d ass and tits?”

duurtlang > fintail 08/31/2017 at 09:31

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With the college educated younger demographic, excluding those from a non-western immigrant background, I think the percentage believing in a personal god is a single digit and has been for some time now. It’s never going to be zero, but I think it’ll eventually (many decades from now) become nothing but a rounding error away from zero.

Even among self reported Christians the true believers aren’t that prevalent anymore. Take my (German) girlfriend for example. She identifies herself as a Christian, but that’s from a cultural Christian perspective. A culture she was brought up in and never rebelled against. She’s got a PhD, she doesn’t actually believe in god, let alone the Christian one.

Jayhawk Jake > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 09:34

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I’m a Filipino. Floods like this are nothing new here in the Philippines—heck, at the back of my mind, I’m TopGear-laughing at the fact that for once you guys get to experience what we experience—and we’ve learned our lessons enough that we’ve been able to do the right thing before, during, and after a storm. OK, sure, I’ll give it to you that we’re no better as disaster preparedness than you lot, and believe me, we’ll forget about our own measures in 3 years time. But you guys have had Sandy, Katrina, Andrew. Those three storms could have crippled the Philippines.

Why do people keep acting like this was just another storm?

My parents live in Houston, this was by far the worst storm they’ve seen in 30 years. While I don’t doubt that the Philippines would have struggled with the storms you mentioned it’s not like people aren’t struggling with those in the US. You’re just looking at the country on the whole instead of the small localized areas affected by the storms. Houston is going to take weeks, months, even years to recover from this especially as a lot of the worst hit parts of the city are low income, disadvantaged populations. It could be argued that the city wasn’t prepared, but how do you prepare for the largest single rainfall in recorded US history?!

And as much as I have zero respect for Osteen, storm response withstanding, it’s really ignorant to act like his actions are representative of a larger Christian population. And it helps no one to pretend that the response to the storm is partisan in any way. The thing is it doesn’t matter what people hundreds or thousands of miles away are saying or doing. We are seeing countless images of humans helping humans, regardless of race or religion. The lines of volunteers at shelters are as long as the lines for food. Millions upon millions of dollars were raised before the sun came out over Houston.

You accuse people of using the storm to push an agenda yet here you are, an outsider, pushing your own agenda. Think about what you’re doing and ask if it will have a positive impact.

duurtlang > EL_ULY 08/31/2017 at 09:37

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Hypocrites. I’ve got no problem with believers, but I do have problems with severe hypocrites. Cherry picking scripture to support their biases and ignoring everything else. Or, you know, forgetting the golden rule.

EL_ULY > duurtlang 08/31/2017 at 09:45

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One can make that same case when it comes to the popular issues like race, political parties, etc.

It honestly hurts my brain lol. Some make it so flippin obvious.

EL_ULY > fintail 08/31/2017 at 09:46

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can’t wait :]

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Sovande 08/31/2017 at 09:53

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The religion itself isn’t hypocritical, it’s the people practicing it that are. The religion itself teaches tolerance, love for your neighbor, helping those in need, and just generally being a good person. Many of the people practicing it however single out very specific passages and take them out of context and then go on their own little crusade against whatever it is that they feel is unholy or whatever.

I grew up in the deep south; basically raised in a church. My grandfather was a minister and my mom was very involved in the goings on of the church. But I’m not out there condemning people who are of a different religion or gender or sexual orientation. What I got out of church was a pretty simple message: “Be good; do good; don’t be a dick.” That’s the motto I try to live by. I’ve never read anywhere in the bible or any other religious book that it’s ok to go out and hurt other people because they don’t conform your religious ideals. The whole “Judge not, lest ye be judged” line stands out here.

TL;DR - Religion isn’t bad, but some of the people practicing it are. Religious or not, just try to live your life as a decent human being. Be good, do good, and don’t be a dick.

Sovande > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 08/31/2017 at 10:20

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A good point, and I am sorry I didn’t make the distinction clear.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 10:33

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I’m really confused on your endgame here. Are you out to condemn Christianity? Or are you out to shit on the US? Or is this some very strangely worded PSA on hurricane/typhoon preparedness?

The tweet you shared, seems to be a comment directed at the actions of Joel Osteen’s “church” and it’s attempt at avoiding helping people. It’s not something that’s condemning all Christian churches or saying that only the mosque opened it’s doors to help people while no Christian church did. The actions of one church, if you can even really call it that, do not speak for the entire Christian religion as a whole. (Also, calling whatever happens in Joel Osteen’s building “Christian” is a bit of a stretch). I live 1100 miles away from Houston and my church is doing what it can to help out the people in Houston. Whether that’s gathering supplies to be sent out or gathering donations for the Red Cross.

Sure, there are plenty of people who claim to be Christian but are really just hateful human beings who pick and choose passages from the Bible and use them out of context to push whatever hateful message they have and claim it’s their “religion”. But not all Christians are like that. Heck, most aren’t like that. You just don’t hear about them because they’re not doing something newsworthy. They’re not announcing their good deeds as being related to being a Christian. They’re just out their helping because it’s the right thing to do, regardless of religious beliefs.

I grew up in the deep south and was raised in church. But you don’t see me out there trying to tell woman what they can and can’t do with their bodies, or telling people that their sexual orientation goes against something they don’t event believe in, or that they’re wrong about what gender they identify as. I’ve been going to church for my entire life, so a little over 28 years, and the general message I’ve gotten that I like to live by is this: “Be good; do good; don’t be a dick.” And that’s the general attitude of most people that I go to church with. We’re not out there trying to convert people or shoving Bibles down peoples throats. We’re just trying to help people when we can because it’s the right thing to do. And I feel that you’ll find that’s the case with most people who follow a Christian faith of some form. So, before you go on and post something like this again, ask yourself “Am I being a dick?” If you answer yes, then it’s probably not good to post that.

\endrant

Anyways, stay well man!

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Sovande 08/31/2017 at 10:45

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No worries man. The way Christianity gets advertised these days with people like the Westboro Baptist Church and all the anti-LGBTQ protests and everything else, I can easily see where people can get that idea. I just want people to know that that’s not the norm for most people who identify as Christians. But stories of normal people being decent human beings don’t bring in viewers or the ratings, so you get the shock pieces in the news instead.

I have another burner, try to guess it! > EL_ULY 08/31/2017 at 10:55

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That’s most of everyone regardless of religion or nationality.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 11:50

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Not going to touch on anything else I already see in the comments. However I will throw in some personal feelings of sadness I’m trying to deal with right now seeing the level of outpouring support for Harvey victims and 24/7 news coverage, and absolutely zero concern shown by anyone in the public spotlight (or news) of the devastation in India, Nepal, and Bangladesh. Over 1,200 (yes, twelve hundred) dead, many millions displaced and having lost even the little bit in life they had (no, insurance isn’t a thing when you can only afford meat once a year), and entire harvests destroyed. These were some of the poorest people in the world to begin with. Being from the Philippines you’ve likely witnessed the type of poverty I’m referring to, but most people in the western world really have no understanding of the types of poverty that is just complete normal baseline life to these people – before all this devastation being thrown on top of them too now.

Of course people react more to what’s closer to home. I get it. Absolutely. But survey a thousand random Americans right now – I’d be willing to bet that over 99% of people aren’t even aware of the level of destruction in Asia currently. Yes – I’m probably particularly moody about this being a South Asian immigrant to the US. My country has gone through horrible things in decades past as well (from civil war, to tsunami, to ever worsening monsoons and landslides too) – and these people whose lives have been destroyed, very well could’ve been my family if this flooding happened a couple of hundred miles in a different direction.

While life can be beautiful to those amongst us who are fortunate, the world just sucks, and that in and of itself is why I can’t prescribe to any religion claiming a higher power with some great master plan. If all this destruction – from Harvey, to the monsoon floods, to anything else any of us are grappling with – if that’s part of this so called master plan, I want nothing to do with this “god”. Let’s be good to each other, our communities, and do what we can to help (or at the very least acknowledge) the suffering of others out there in the world.

dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 11:56

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Houstonian and Christian here (my family used to live in Manila, and my Dad actually helped coordinate relief efforts for Haiyan) : Joel Osteen is a bad Christian, and it’s unfortunate that he, of all people, seems to be the face of Christianity in this disaster.
I know the pastor of this church:

http://www.squareinchhouston.org/

It looks like this is the organization that’s coordinating their efforts:

The Forge for Families

EDIT: This is him:

I went to college with him. He’s Nigerian born, did an engineering and business degree in 5 years and then decided to become a pastor. This is actually a pretty unusual photo because most of my memories are of him smiling.

fintail > duurtlang 08/31/2017 at 11:58

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People looking to the future might also want to pay heed to birthrates. It’s not the college educated agnostic or secular people who have the highest numbers, rather, those who are enthusiastic about less than evolved movements. I don’t see the numbers really declining, especially in a timespan of say a half century at once. A few of those timespans may result in a new reality.

I consider my cultural background to be Christian (and lots of Catholic, I even have a bishop in the family a few generations back), but I have never attended church outside of a wedding or rummage sale, have never read a revered book, and don’t really believe the tales. My mom was brought up in a Catholic household, and for whatever reason, she didn’t want any part of it for her own family. Funny thing, without it, her kids didn’t turn out different than had they been taught the alternative.

dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 08/31/2017 at 12:13

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I grew up in SE Asia, so I have seen the kind of poverty you’re referring to.

As for the destruction being part of God’s plan, I think you may be missing the forest for the trees.

The Earth is what it is: it’s had storms, and weather and earthquakes since it was formed. If it didn’t have those things, it would be a dead planet. Volcanism, plate tectonics and water are all things that allow the Earth to sustain life.

But the reason that the storms are so devastating is a) there are a ton of people and b) there’s fuck all for infrastructure. Stormwater mitigation? What’s that? Building codes? Who needs em?

I’m not trying to place blame here, or perhaps more accurately, I’m placing the blame where I think it ought to be: with the people who are responsible for the sad state of affairs that the poor live in globally. Unfortunately, the West in general, and the United States in particular bear a great part of this blame, although most of the people responsible are long dead.

I guess my point is that rejecting divinity doesn’t really get you anything on the problem of evil. Without God, there are still just as many evil people. Without God, tornadoes are still just as destructive.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter 08/31/2017 at 12:20

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I completely agree with what you said. It’s literally my point – so many people sit idly by and anything they don’t want to deal with is “God’s plan”, and they send “thoughts and prayers”. That’s simply not enough is all I’m saying. It’s a cop out. I’m just calling them out on that shit – if this is your god’s plan, I don’t want to be part of it. Hurricanes and floods and volcanoes and everything are part of nature – and our actions or inactions play a part in all that as well. Just saying it’s beyond our control and laying it all on god is a shitty thing to do.

Where did you grow up? Looks like you’re in CO now? I grew up in Sri Lanka and live in Portland, OR now (by way of Utah and the Bay Area).

Berang > Sovande 08/31/2017 at 14:25

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Wait till you learn about other religions... the crusades, relatively speaking, were nothing.

Sovande > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 08/31/2017 at 15:04

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Eh. Not sure I agree. The pattern of abuses and atrocities committed under the auspices of the Christian faith lead me to believe that it’s not an overly good organization, on the whole. My suspicion is the nice “good” Christians are the outliers, not the norm.

dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 08/31/2017 at 17:57

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Vietnam. My parents moved to the Philippines after I graduated, but I would go back there for holidays, etc.

My Dad actually was running a company making fuel injector kits that he was marketing in Sri Lanka.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter 08/31/2017 at 18:22

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Small world…My brother and his family currently live in Vietnam (Hanoi). We were hoping to visit this year but couldn’t make it happen – hopefully someday before they move someplace else!

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Wheelerguy 08/31/2017 at 20:29

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“I don’t have a problem with god, its the fanclub...” - George Carlin.