fighting hate with love (politics)

"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove)
08/28/2017 at 13:28 • Filed to: brillant ideas

I love this idea. From !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! editorial page:

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How to back neo-Nazis into a corner without violence

3 days ago

As a licensed professional counselor in Texas, I have come to the conclusion that America has an anger management problem when it comes to dealing with hate groups. We resort to finger-pointing, more violence and outrage. I have a solution to this dilemma that is called Operation Paradox.

What is Operation Paradox? First, put the hate groups in a position that sets up a discrepancy, a paradox. Ask businesses, individuals or peaceful organizations to donate money for every minute that the hate group publicly demonstrates.

A variation of Operation Paradox exists in !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , which attracts neo-Nazis each year for a march through town commemorating Adolf Hitler’s deputy. Townspeople came up with a humorous counterprotest that pokes fun at Nazis. Instead of generating hate, residents and businesses pledge money for every meter the neo-Nazis walk. The donations go to Exit Deutschland, a nongovernmental organization that helps neo-Nazis put aside their hate.

Here in the U.S., let’s say, the Ku Klux Klan demonstrates publicly for 120 minutes in a public park. Ten businesses pledge to donate $5 for each minute the demonstration takes place. The hate demonstration thus generates $6,000.

The money goes to groups such as the United Negro College Fund in the name of the Ku Klux Klan. Make sure to let the hate groups know the plan so they understand they are now working against their own racist agenda.

Just imagine how the KKK members will feel when they discover that instead of trying to shut down the demonstration, we are encouraging it to go on and on, to fund something that the hate group does not support. They are faced with a dilemma.

If they demonstrate publicly, they will fund an agenda that turns their stomach (for example, the United Negro College Fund, the Southern Poverty Law Center or the Anti-Defamation League). If they don’t demonstrate, their message of hate is contained. No constitutional rights to demonstrate have been denied. The lesser of two evils is their only choice left.

The paradoxical intervention has taken place. The hateful energy is reversed or neutralized.

Operation Paradox takes the fun out of being hateful and racist and picking on law-abiding people from diverse backgrounds. It also cools the jets of counterprotesters who had no other alternatives to solving a dangerous and combative situation, thus making for a more peaceful community.

The organization, communication and planning necessary for this approach to be meaningful provides reasons for whole communities to work together for the greater good. Individual feelings of helplessness are gone.

The belief that the government has to fix everything begins to change. Citizens, police, politicians, businesses and charitable organizations take responsibility and are empowered. Anarchy is replaced with peace and integrity, in turn making America, as a whole, great again.

Scott Smith is a counselor in Flower Mound. He wrote this column for The Dallas Morning News. Email: sspfdovercounseling@yahoo.com

DISCUSSION (51)

For Sweden > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:32

The people in Berkeley taught me that the best way to fight fascism was to beat up journalists.

Chariotoflove > For Sweden
08/28/2017 at 13:37

That could work too. No one likes them anyway.

For Sweden > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:39

You may have a point. The first thing the Soviets did to keep the Nazis from coming back was to block a free press.

Chariotoflove > For Sweden
08/28/2017 at 13:42

Yup, and look how well it worked out.

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:43

Nice! I love this idea-

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW
08/28/2017 at 13:44

We create the society we want instead of fighting against the society we don’t. So much more effective.

fintail > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:45

I doubt the wackjob right can think that far ahead, or that broadly.

None of it will matter as long as the current regime is around, anyway.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:45

I thought that was Mr Bean.

Powershiftmedia-ResidentDSMGuru > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:48

I think this is a truly great idea!

WilliamsSW > Shamoononon drives like a farmer
08/28/2017 at 13:48

hehe - I did too, at first glance-

Chariotoflove > fintail
08/28/2017 at 13:49

No no, you’re not getting the thrust of the article. The government has nothing to do with the equation here. It’s people building the society they want instead of railing against the one they hate.

I doubt the wackjob right can think that far ahead, or that broadly.

That may be comforting to say, but never underestimate your opponent.

Chariotoflove > Shamoononon drives like a farmer
08/28/2017 at 13:49

That would be an even better pic.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:50

I will support anything except marrying a Pontiac Montana.

Chariotoflove > Powershiftmedia-ResidentDSMGuru
08/28/2017 at 13:50

I’d contribute to this. Kinda of like a walk-a-thon for peace.

WilliamsSW > fintail
08/28/2017 at 13:50

ah, but it does give additional strength to groups that need it, so it helps, whether the wackjobs figure it out or not.

Chariotoflove > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
08/28/2017 at 13:51

Y U so full of h8?!

WilliamsSW > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:52

And anything that builds strength in the groups opposing these people is a +++.

Chariotoflove > WilliamsSW
08/28/2017 at 13:52

Exactly.

fintail > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:53

I must have worded that clumsily. I didn’t mean the government was playing a formal role. I mean it will be hard to have a massive optimistic movement with the trash in control right now - easily the most repugnant regime in any of our lifetimes. Every time the Orange Menace blows his dog whistle to tiki torch nazis and Jim Crow statue embracers, it will go off the rails. It is mentally exhausting.

I can’t see the ACLU or SPLC receiving money via any cause actually slowing down these idiots. Many of them probably can’t even grasp the arithmetic behind it.

It’s a nice thought though, I agree.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:53

Because I’ve driven a Pontiac Montana.

fintail > WilliamsSW
08/28/2017 at 13:54

That would be the positive, indeed.

Chariotoflove > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
08/28/2017 at 13:54

That’s fair.

benjrblant > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 13:55

My only hope is that the ten businesses do not become a target themselves.

WilliamsSW > fintail
08/28/2017 at 14:00

I get where you’re coming from, but I think Cheetolini and his ilk give motivation to the other side, as well. And the ACLU and SPLC are doing a lot of the front line work in this fight - they’re getting my $, and I admit I wasn’t giving to them before 11/9.

I tend to think that this too, shall pass - but if we’re all passive, then no, it won’t.

Chariotoflove > fintail
08/28/2017 at 14:01

Don’t ascribe so much credit or power to the administration. He’s not a fuhrer. He doesn’t have brown-shirted goon squads. This is our country, and we can make of it what we want. No really, we can! Start thinking of ways we can promote love instead of ways to fight hate. That’s why I wanted to share this article with you.

Chariotoflove > benjrblant
08/28/2017 at 14:04

Hate and scapegoating is not entrenched and widespread enough in our society to make that a really danger. Actions of individual hate groups could happen, but it would only marginalize them further and hurt their cause.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 14:06

It sounds like a good idea, but the author provides evidence in the third paragraph of this article that it doesn’t work.

A variation of Operation Paradox exists in Wunsiedel, Germany, the location of the former grave of Rudolf Hess , which attracts neo-Nazis each year for a march through town commemorating Adolf Hitler’s deputy.

Despite the donations, they still have neo nazis marching through their town every year to pay homage to one of Hitler’s henchmen. That doesn’t sound like it is working to me.

Germany does give us a pretty good example of how to deal with these nazis, and it doesn’t involve hugs, kisses, or donations. It would be great if the world was all peace, love and unicorn farts, but unfortunately it isn’t.

What I find very interesting is a whole lot of people who have no problem using violence against the like of ISIS (and rightfully so), suddenly becoming peaceniks when nazis are involved. Very interesting to me indeed (I’m not accusing you of this, but it’s a pattern I’ve been seeing with many over the last few weeks).

Don’t get me wrong, I would love it if simply donating to organizations could rid the world of racial/religious/ethnic supremacists. Unfortunately that just isn’t the case.

m-b-w loves his SUBAROO > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
08/28/2017 at 14:16

I’m pretty sure its actually a chinese market Buick GL8.

Kinja'd!!!

What is basically a Chinese made Pontiac Montana is even worse than the shitty Montana that we know..

Chariotoflove > DipodomysDeserti
08/28/2017 at 14:20

Just because the tactic hasn’t wiped out all nazi demonstrations doesn’t mean it isn’t effective. A parallel analogy would be stopping your chemotherapy because it hasn’t eradicated all the tumor.

Violence committed internationally by countries or organizations must sometimes be met with violence in self defense. That’s why even peaceful nations need armed forces. Here in our country, domestically, organizations that commit violence are to be met with force from our civilian police force. That is the legal and accepted route for confronting violence. Taking to the streets to fight offensive groups, as some here have championed, only causes more violence and degrades the legal system that protects our society from them.

fintail > WilliamsSW
08/28/2017 at 14:30

I’d like to think so. It just seems to be getting even dumber and dirtier now. Maybe it has to get worse before it gets better - it won’t take much for the latter.

For Sweden > DipodomysDeserti
08/28/2017 at 14:31

Unfortunately, it’s hard to defeat domestic terrorism by dropping MOABs.

WilliamsSW > fintail
08/28/2017 at 14:40

I think there’s a lot of truth to your last two sentences. Some days it’s hard to be optimistic, other days I see sunlight through the clouds.

I like to think that something good will come of this - perhaps a leader or movement who can unite us (or at least most of us) instead of divide us. The country is hungry for that.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 14:41

He didn’t demonstrate in the article that the tactict was at all effective. The only example he gave was one of ineffectiveness.

Historically, police forces, especially in the south, have been used to uphold white supremecy rather than fight it.

Kinja'd!!!

The promise of hope and change may have worked on the Obama drones, but I’m an evidence based thinker, not a “hope” based thinker.

DipodomysDeserti > For Sweden
08/28/2017 at 14:42

Fortunately for us, there are a lot of options in between.

Chariotoflove > DipodomysDeserti
08/28/2017 at 15:00

These arguments are specious. Your conclusions do not follow from the examples you cite. The example in the editorial did not say whether or not the nazi rallies in that town got smaller or bigger; so, you cannot conclude that the effort was ineffective. Further, there are collateral benefits to the community from undertaking this enterprise aside from their direct effects on the behavior of the nazis. These were described in the article.

Secondly, your example of how police forces have enforced racist activity in history has no bearing on today, unless you have evidence of our police forces actively perpetrating a racist agenda as part of an organized policy. Using that argument is similar to how people at college, when they fond out I was catholic, would tell me that my church persecutes people because of what happened during the Spanish Inquisition.

I am not sure what you are trying to put forth other than to shoot down the idea of the person who wrote the article. If you have other positive paths of action to suggest, then by all means follow them. If you are somehow a proponent of the philosophy of private citizens taking to the streets to physically confront these hate groups, then you will not find agreement from me.

Future next gen S2000 owner > DipodomysDeserti
08/28/2017 at 15:15

...violence against the like of ISIS (and rightfully so), suddenly becoming peaceniks when nazis are involved.

That’s a pretty big comparison. One is actively murdering innocent people. The other, while awful, hasn’t claimed responsibility for running down people in an unsuspecting crowd. Please don’t construe this as to point out the neo-nazi that ran into the crowd. I’m just conveying the difference between anger protestors and people trying to shop. ISIS does this regularly. Neo-nazis aren’t. But maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the KKK is still burning houses and lynching people.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 16:34

These arguments are specious.

That’s the argument I was making about this article. It’s a great idea, but he offers no evidence that it actually works. The only evidence he offers is that the town still has nazi rallies in it. 500 nazis just rallied in Berlin to celebrate Rudolph Hess. That doesn’t look like success to me.

Further, there are collateral benefits to the community from undertaking this enterprise aside from their direct effects on the behavior of the nazis.

Very true. I would argue that no collateral benefits could surpass not having nazis march through your town.

No, that’s not at all the same. No one is expecting the Catholic Church to protect religious minorities, and even if they were, the Spanish Inquisition was 500+ years ago, not sixty years ago. Unlike local Southern PDs, the Catholic church is an entirely different organization today.

A better example would be if the state put the Catholic Church in charge of local children protective services. It would be unreasonable to expect the public (specifically members of the public who were abused by the Church) to trust such an organization with protecting children. While not all clergy were guilty of abusing children, the systematic abuse that took place would make it impossible for the general public to entrust them with such a task. Only the most virulent supporters with think that would be a reasonable request.

Also, what school did you go to, Baylor?

Powershiftmedia-ResidentDSMGuru > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 16:41

Right! World needs more love these days. No more political and racial divides.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > For Sweden
08/28/2017 at 16:51

“The people of Berkeley” eh?

Love how when it comes to actual fucking Nazis and white nationalists there are “plenty of good people” on that side, and we’re not supposed to prescribe all blame to the entire group. And I’m happy to oblige – the asshole who drove through a crowd and killed a woman is a terrorist, in addition to being a Nazi …but sure, all the other Nazis aren’t quite as bad as him? I guess we should bake some cookies for them. Same goes for all the other marchers with torches…great job, all – only SOME of you decided to beat people up or circle historically black neighborhoods or churches armed to the teeth, threatening to destroy them. The rest of you were just simply OK with it and kept chanting “jews will not replace us”! I’m certainly happy to judge the individuals in these cases…so much nuance to be had!

Let’s get back to Berkeley now – there were literally THOUSANDS of peaceful marchers getting together in solidarity with zero violence. And then those despicable losers covered in black showed up and ruined everything. The other marchers went out of their way to stop them. We continually speak out against them – that their violence is unwanted and destructive – that unless we are beaten first (as in Charlottesville) then there is no need to react with violence. However now all those thousands of peaceful people in Berkeley are lumped together as “the people of Berkeley” who are apparently all a bunch of anarchist hooligans?

Very rich of you to say.

For Sweden > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
08/28/2017 at 17:01

If you read what I actually wrote, I said “The people in Berkeley.” Don’t misquote me.

Chariotoflove > DipodomysDeserti
08/28/2017 at 17:13

You keep talking past what I’m saying and fail to address my points. You don’t offer any evidence that the peaceful methods suggested don’t help to curb hate groups, but you insist that they are ineffective. You don’t offer any evidence that present-day police departments enforce a racist agenda, but you assert that they are incapable of dealing with (or unwilling to deal with) racist activist violence. You also don’t offer any constructive solutions for dealing with hate groups. It’s like you’re having an independent conversation with someone in your head who is not me. So, I’d appreciate it if you would have any further discourse on this with that person and not type it out to me.

And no, I did not go to Baylor, for whatever that is worth.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > For Sweden
08/28/2017 at 17:22

You’re right, I did misread that. Perhaps I was overly agitated by everything I’ve seen in the news – and your comment still does sadly show much damage that small minority of absolute douchebags has managed to create – completely drowning out the peaceful message against hate from many thousands of people across the Bay Area this past weekend.

For Sweden > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
08/28/2017 at 17:25

The damage is indeed real. People need to speak up against the “liberals get the bullet too” crowd that loves to force themselves into activism.

Here’s one example from a reporter last weekend:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

DipodomysDeserti > Future next gen S2000 owner
08/28/2017 at 18:10

Oct. 9, 1995. An Amtrak employee is killed when a train derails near Hyder, Arizona because the track it’s traveling on has been sabotaged. The perpetrators are never found, but anti-law enforcement propaganda messages from the “Sons of Gestapo” are found near the scene.

April 12, 1996. A neo-Nazi named Larry Wayne Shoemake, who is found to have owned at least 22 firearms and an estimated 20,000 rounds of ammunition, kills a black man in a random Jackson, Mississippi attack.

July 27, 1996. A bomb set by Eric Robert Rudolph, who is affiliated with the “Christian Identity” fundamentalist movement, kills one person at the Atlanta Olympics.

Jan. 29, 1998. Another bomb set by Rudolph kills a man at a Birmingham abortion clinic.

May 29, 1998. Three militia sympathizers named Alan Pilon, Robert Mason and Jason McVean fire 29 shots at a Cortez, Colorado police officer who is trying to apprehend them because they’ve stolen a water truck, killing him. The three evade capture but are believed to ultimately have died in the desert wilderness surrounding the crime scene.

Oct. 23, 1998. With his wife and children nearby, an abortion provider in Amherst, New York is shot and killed through the window of his home by James Charles Kopp.

July 1, 1999. Brothers Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams, who also have connections to the “Christian Identity” movement, kill a gay couple in Redding, California.

July 2–July 5 1999. Neo-Nazi Benjamin Nathaniel Smith kills black basketball coach Ricky Byrdsong and and a Korean graduate student and wounds nine other non-white victims in a three-day shooting spree.

Aug. 10, 1999. Neo-Nazi Buford Furrow kills a Filipino immigrant after firing 70 shots inside a Jewish community center near Los Angeles.

April 28, 2000. An unemployed immigration attorney named Richard Baumhammers who believes “non-white immigration” should be banned shoots and kills five people in the Pittsburgh area.

Sept. 15–Oct. 4, 2001. Mark Stroman, a lifelong criminal with connections to the Aryan Brotherhood, shoots three South Asian men in the Dallas area—killing two—in what he describes as revenge for 9/11.

Dec. 8, 2003. Steven Bixby kills two police officers in Abbeville, South Carolina during a dispute over the state’s decision to use a 20-foot strip of the Bixbys’ land to widen a highway.

May 24, 2004. Wade and Christopher Lay, a father-son pair obsessed with the 1993 government siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, kill a bank security guard in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

July 27, 2008. Jim David Adkisson shoots and kills two people during a childrens’ performance of a musical at a Unitarian Univeralist church in Knoxville, Tennessee, telling police that he intended to target individuals who had voted for liberals and Democrats.

Jan. 21, 2009 . Neo-Nazi Keith Luke rapes and kills an immigrant from Cape Verde in Brockton, Massachusetts, then kills a 72-year-old homeless immigrant.

April 4, 2009. Richard Andrew Poplawski, a frequent poster on the white supremacist Stormfront website who apparently believes a national “gun ban” is imminent, kills three Pittsburgh police officers.

April 25, 2009 . Joshua Cartwright kills two Okaloosa County, Florida sheriff’s deputies. Per a police report, Cartwright’s wife says he was paranoid about the U.S. government and “extremely disturbed” by Barack Obama’s election.

May 30, 2009. Shawna Forde, Albert Gaxiola, and Jason Bush kill a Latino man and his nine-year-old daughter in Arivaca, Arizona during a robbery intended to raise funds for the “Minutemen American Defense” group.

May 31, 2009. Scott Roeder kills Dr. George Tiller, an abortion provider, in the Wichita, Kansas Lutheran church where Tiller serves as an usher.

June 10, 2009. An 89-year-old white supremacist named James von Brunn kills a security guard at the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. from point-blank range.

Feb. 18, 2010. Joseph Andrew Stack flies a plane into an Austin, Texas IRS office, killing one person.

May 20, 2010. A father-son pair named Jerry and Joseph Kane (who conduct “seminars” about how “sovereign citizens” can evade debt) kill two West Memphis, Arkansas police officers.

Sept. 26–Oct. 3, 2011. Avowed white supremacists David Joseph Pedersen and Holly Ann Grigsby kill Pedersen’s father and stepmother in Washington, a man they believe is Jewish in Oregon, and a black man in California.*

Aug. 5, 2012. A white supremacist named Wade Michael Page kills six people at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin.

Aug. 16, 2012. “Sovereign citizen”-movement adherents Brian Smith and Kyle Joekel, who are now awaiting trial, allegedly kill two Louisiana sheriff’s deputies in a trailer-park ambush.

Sept. 4, 2012. Christopher Lacy, a software engineer who lives in a rural trailer and apparently sympathizes with the “sovereign citizen” movement, shoots a California Highway Patrol officer who dies the next day.

April 13, 2014. Frazier Glenn Miller, a 73-year-old with a long history of KKK activity, kills three people in the area of a Jewish community center and Jewish retirement community in Overland Park, Kansas.

June 8, 2014. Jerad and Amanda Miller kill two police officers in a random attack at a pizza restaurant in Las Vegas, then kill a customer at a Walmart. The Millers had spent time on Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s property during protests related to Bundy’s dispute with the federal government.

Sept. 12, 2014. Eric Frein allegedly shoots and kills a Pennsylvania state trooper; he’s caught 48 days later after hiding from authorities in “survivalist” fashion in a rural area.

June 17, 2015. Dylann Roof murders nine people at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina.

July 24, 2015. John Russell Houser, a 59-year-old man with a history of expressing extremist and anti-feminist beliefs, kills two women at a screening of the Amy Schumer comedy Trainwreck in Lafayette, Louisiana.

Nov. 27, 2015. A 57-year-old religious fanatic named Robert Lewis Dear shoots and kills three people, including a police officer, at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs.

March 20, 2017. A 28-year-old white supremacist named James Harris Jackson stabs a 66-year-old black stranger to death in midtown Manhattan.

May 26, 2017. Two men are stabbed to death on a light-rail train in Portland, Oregon by a “known local white supremacist” named Jeremy Joseph Christian.

Aug. 12, 2017. A white supremacist named James Fields Jr. attending the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, allegedly runs over and kills an anti-racism protester.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove
08/28/2017 at 18:25

I literally quoted what you wrote and responded directly to it. I even offered up specific example (500 strong Nazi march in Berlin in celebration of Hess) to show how the donation campaign mentioned in the article you cited was ineffective. You’re obviously trying to keep those blinders on pretty tight. As far as policing goes, I was making the point that southern police departments have a horrible track record in regards to policing white supremacists, and therefore can’t be trusted. If you need some examples of racist police departments, I’ll leave you with one from my home county.

Kinja'd!!!

Charged, convicted, and pardoned. But yeah, we are supposed to trust these guys to protect communities from the racists. I could list out all the unarmed black men that have been killed by cops over the last year, but that would probably be a waste of time. Good luck with your donation campaign. You will you be donating to?

Future next gen S2000 owner > DipodomysDeserti
08/28/2017 at 18:31

Still different than ISIS. ISIS has a chain of command and has conducted military offenses to gain ground in the region they claim to be theirs. Neo-nazis aren’t openly attacking the capital of Georgia in an effort to create a country, murdering those opposed to them while the try to do it while simultaneously planning mass murder events at locations around the globe.

Apples and oranges. Those examples you site are horrendous acts but they are not the same.

Dusty Ventures > Future next gen S2000 owner
08/28/2017 at 20:50

In the three days after Dillon Roof shot nine people in a North Carolina church three black churches in three states were set on fire. They’re still out there and they’re still active.

Dusty Ventures > Future next gen S2000 owner
08/28/2017 at 20:58

“Planning mass murder events”

Dusty Ventures > Shamoononon drives like a farmer
08/28/2017 at 21:01

I thought it was Pee Wee Herman

DipodomysDeserti > Future next gen S2000 owner
08/28/2017 at 21:41

Neo Nazis blew up a federal building in Oklahoma in order to precipitate a race war in the hope of sending America into chaos. Might want to read The Turner Diaries before you start talking about the motives of neo nazis.

Those examples you site are horrendous acts but they are not the same.

Why is a neo nazi killing an immigrant, a cop, a POC or an abortion clinic doctor different than a muslim extremist killing someone?

Future next gen S2000 owner > DipodomysDeserti
08/29/2017 at 10:53

When neo-nazis march a thousand or more strong into Charleston, execute every man, woman, and children that doesn’t conform to their belief system. When they force fully sieze and occupy an entire state against the armed response from the federal gov’t. When neo-nazis start executing thousands of members of their own race that aren’t extreme enough in their views.

Then we can talk about equivalency. Until till then, I view continue to view them as different levels of evil.