What would you do, Oppo? [UPDATE]

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
08/18/2017 at 12:33 • Filed to: None

Milky’s !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! reminded me of this intersection in North Austin. Two lanes turn right onto the frontage road (feeder, access road, call it what you like) of a major highway. The left-hand right turn lane is designed so drivers can quickly move to the left on the frontage road to access the highway. The right lane of the right turn lane stays on the frontage road. The intersection does not have a NO TURN ON RED sign, but the three red lights controlling this turn have been changed from a simple red (as shown) to three red arrows. In my mind, a red right turn arrow functions like a left turn arrow, which means there is no movement on red, but pretty much everybody (except me) turns on red. What would you do?

Update: TheRealBicycleBuck found the relevant Texas code. It turns out I was right all along!

“When the separate right-turn signal face is providing a message to stop and remain stopped, a steady right-turn RED ARROW signal indication shall be displayed if it is intended that right turns on red not be permitted (except when a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication) or a steady CIRCULAR RED signal indication shall be displayed if it is intended that right turns on red be permitted.”

DISCUSSION (60)

PartyPooper2012 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 10:59

That there is a no turn on red. I have a somewhat similar situation.

There is a LED sign with wording that says no turn on red. I have no idea if it’s a legal sign. Everyone blows right through it. I sit and wait. My logic is - if town spent money putting it up, sure as shit, they gonna want their municipality cops enforcing those rules.

Kinja'd!!!

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:00

You’re right, the majority is wrong. But what’s annoying about that intersection is that it *appears* to me that the only reason there’s red arrows is because there’s 2 turn lanes. It seems like it’s automatic that right on red (or left on green w/o an arrow) is prohibited wherever there’s 2 or more turn lanes - and I’m not sure why.

In my area (Chicago burbs), we have some intersections like yours where the far right lane can turn on red, but not the next one over - so, of course, everyone turns right on red from either lane...

Wagonlife740 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:00

I guess if there are no cops around, I would turn on red if I was in the far right lane, but not if I was in the left right turn lane.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:04

If there’s traffic lights specifically targeting those lanes, the red applies to those lanes. So no right on red.

With that being said... If I lived there, and knew the traffic patterns and peoples habits, then I’d probably just turn like everyone else does as long as there were no cops. As a visitor, I’d wait at the light.

Milky > WilliamsSW
08/18/2017 at 11:06

I did not know the 2 lane rule. Well that explains the intersection I posted about.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
08/18/2017 at 11:06

I wait for the light. I’m a prude. Besides, that’s a crazy intersection. The cars coming up the frontage road from your left are coming uphill so they’re hard to see, there are cars coming out of the u-turn under the highway trying to move all the way right to access shops. I’m convinced that the traffic engineers added the red arrow to keep more cars out of the mix.

ttyymmnn > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:09

That is a legal sign, and you would be cited if caught turning on red.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:10

If there is no “no turn on red” sign, then go for it. The red right arrows don’t mean anything to me other than there will be a right turn arrow when the light changes. If they don’t want you to turn on red, then they can add the sign.

WilliamsSW > Milky
08/18/2017 at 11:11

Just to clarify, when I say ‘rule’, I don’t mean that there’s a law on the books - it just seems to me that virtually every intersection like that has ‘no right on red’ signs around my area, at least for the left-most turn lane, and usually both.

Wagonlife740 > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
08/18/2017 at 11:11

Yes.... I’ve almost caused accidents for obeying traffic laws before. Sometimes locals just have a weird unconventional way of treating a specific intersection that doesn’t abide by the law, but its sooo normalized that even cops do it.

ttyymmnn > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc
08/18/2017 at 11:11

I see your point, but then why did they replace the regular reds with red arrows? As with the left turn, the arrow prohibits specific movement.

Wagonlife740 > Wagonlife740
08/18/2017 at 11:13

...like a single lane wide enough for two cars for instance. People just sneak an imaginary right turn lane in there and in my town that is completely normal. Or when turning left and oncoming traffic is heavy, you can roll into the middle of the intersection and continue on when it turns red here in southern Wisconsin. Try that in Saginaw area Michigan and people don’t like it.

PartyPooper2012 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:15

What makes it legal? I thought street signs were supposed to be white, yellow or green. Sometimes red, orange, black and white etc.

I don’t remember studying LED lights when I was taking my road test. Do you know where I can find more info on it?

ttyymmnn > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:17

A sign like that can be turned on or off depending on the time of day. For example, during rush hour or in the morning while kids are walking to school and crossing the street, the sign is on. During times of reduced traffic flow, the sign is turned off. I have seen this many times and in different states. It’s better than a sign that reads, “No turn on red during these specific times” because nobody pays attention to the times.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:18

Here’s a similar situation, but with much better signage:

Kinja'd!!!

As my daughter learns how to navigate our world, I’ve been trying to teach her caution and patience. It’s better to be patient and wait for the green than to make a right on red and get hit. I’ve been letting her make the call.

A few days ago she almost turned right on red in front of a speeding car. It’s one of the few times I’ve raised my voice at her while she’s driving. Now I don’t allow her to turn right on red at all.

In your situation, I’d just wait for the green.

PartyPooper2012 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:20

yeah. I can see that. however, this sign is always on. Day and night. Its on an off ramp. I guess municipality reserves the right to flip it off when they see fit.

My whole thing is I have never see that sign in a traffic sign manual.

http://www.trafficsign.us/alphalist.html

facw > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:23

I’d never even consider a red arrow to mean to turn on red. If they wanted to say no turn on red, they’d put a sign. You equate with a left turn arrow, but the situation isn’t really the same (also TX seems to put a sign for every left turn arrow/yield on green/etc.). As long as there’s no “no turn on red” sign, I’m assuming its allowed.

ttyymmnn > facw
08/18/2017 at 11:25

We’ve got a sheriff’s department motor officer on our neighborhood message board. I’ll see what he says.

ttyymmnn > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:26

That sounds like an argument to take to traffic court. IMO, if the sign says don’t turn, I don’t turn.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:27

Is that in Knoxville at Cumberland Ave and University Commons/Walmart?

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/18/2017 at 11:28

It’s better to be patient and wait for the green than to make a right on red and get hit.

So. Much. This.

What does the lower sign on the left read? I can’t make it out.

jvirgs drives a Subaru > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:28

Those intersection designs are always tricky. In Virginia, you can make a right turn on red at any intersection that does not have signs otherwise limiting it. Normally, the intersections that I’ve seen with dual right turn lanes, the left most right turn lane is normally a “no right on red” where the right most lane you can make a “right on red”. This is one of those intersections that they should have additional signage to clarify.

PartyPooper2012 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:30

I can write same on cardboard and hang it on a pole. Would you follow it? I can make it a bit fancier with LED lights and solar panel. Hang it on a pole and it will say turn off radio in this town. Do you follow it?

PartyPooper2012 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars
08/18/2017 at 11:30

wow... nope. New England area.

ttyymmnn > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:31

Now you’re just being silly. Ignore the sign if you like. When I drive through your town, I will obey it.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:32

Sorry about that. Enhance!

Kinja'd!!!

No turn on red from this lane.

PartyPooper2012 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:33

I am not suggesting breaking the law. I am simply stating that is not a standard sign and one could make a case for its illegitimacy.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:38

It looks just like the intersection I mentioned. There’s train tracks that run parallel to the road so that light is there for the 2-5 times a year a train uses them.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:44

That changes the picture. Best to sit tight on that one. I typically take “no right on red” with a grain of salt because a lot of ours are pretty stupid... still I usually wait anyway because it’s just not worth the chance of a ticket unless I’m in a SERIOUS hurry.

Anyway, here’s an example of one of the stupid ones:

Kinja'd!!!

Red line is the no turn on red. It only goes onto the highway. There’s no option of going straight through or turning left. Sightlines are good. WHY!?!?!?

Not the only bit of bizarre this spot has, either...

Kinja'd!!!

Reading the red spots left to right:

- One of the two available lanes turns off at an all-way stop.

- The road remains two lanes wide.

- The left lane, the one that was taken out of play by the turn lane, pinches off the lane that came through—even though the road doesn’t actually narrow.

- After making the right turn onto the ramp, it becomes two lanes again—so there was no reason to end the lane before the turn (especially since there’s no turn on red)—and then back to one again on the other side of the bridge. You also may notice that only one lane comes through from the road entering at the top of the picture.

The blue is just calling out the apparent left turn lane for the traffic exiting the highway. That doesn’t happen. There’s no turn allowed, and hasn’t been for at least 15 years. I think the initial idea was to punch the road through further, but the project is basically dead as far as I can tell. There hasn’t been any work in years... by the time they get back to it (if they do) the whole place will need resurfacing anyway. They should really just bite the bullet and clean up the rough edges to make it work properly as it is instead of leaving their construction debris in the hopes of one day resuming the project.

...

Wow this turned out big. I should have just made a new post. Sorry ‘bout dat

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:44

Here’s what the Texas Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices has to say on the matter (page 499):

If it’s a red arrow, you are not allowed to turn on red unless there is a sign stating otherwise.

Svart Smart, traded in his Smart > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 11:47

In Washington, you can turn right on a red arrow after coming to a complete stop and making sure the intersection is clear. I would assume the same thing is true in Texas, but I would check the state law before driving there.

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/18/2017 at 11:48

Well, there you go. Thanks for looking that up.

ttyymmnn > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 11:49

You are correct.

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/18/2017 at 11:50

You’d think it would say, NOT OKAY ON RED. I’m a stickler for parallel construction.

TheRealBicycleBuck > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc
08/18/2017 at 11:51

Depends on the state. In Texas, a red circle light means right-on-red is legal. A red arrow means you aren’t allowed to turn right on red.

https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/trf/tmutcd/2011-rev-2/4.pdf Page 499

TheRealBicycleBuck > WilliamsSW
08/18/2017 at 11:52

In Texas, red arrows mean no right on red unless there’s a sign indicating otherwise. If the light is a circle, right on red is permitted.

TheRealBicycleBuck > facw
08/18/2017 at 11:54

I just found out that in Texas, a red arrow means no right on red. A red circle means right on red is permitted.

https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/trf/tmutcd/2011-rev-2/4.pdf (page 499)

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Wagonlife740
08/18/2017 at 11:54

Nobody around here stops completely at stop signs (except high traffic 4-way stops). Including me. I’ll admit that. Used sparingly with good judgment, they’re good. Put in too many and it’s a royal pain in the ass... and they get ignored. But usually that “rolling stop” is where you can feel the brakes getting one last bite so you know it’s juuuust about stopped, then going.

Now then.

There’s a district fairly close where if you even do that (apart from, again, high traffic situations) you’re holding up traffic. There’s a ton of stop signs and speed bumps, so it seems people are just collectively sick of that shit. Also the roads are wide and for the most part have good sightlines. The basic practice is you coast up to the intersection, and set yourself a go/no go line looking for cops. If there’s a cop you lock them up, if no cops you warm your brake lights for a couple seconds and hit the gas. When in Rome, baby...

facw > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/18/2017 at 11:57

Doesn’t this sound like you can make your turn though?

When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication, vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow signal indication, after stopping. The right to proceed with the turn shall be limited to the direction indicated by the arrow and shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a STOP sign.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/18/2017 at 12:00

Gotcha, see I wouldn’t know that as an out of state person, I guess the whole sign with words thing doesn’t play so well down there ;) I keed, I keed. But good to know nonetheless.

Aremmes > PartyPooper2012
08/18/2017 at 12:02

That’s a blank-out sign. MUTCD Chapter 2B Section 54 , option 5.

PartyPooper2012 > Aremmes
08/18/2017 at 12:08

Yeah. That section talks about it being operational during certain hours or certain cycles of signal. This puppy is up there on at all times.

Seems like a long shot, but maybe. Just maybe one could get out of that violation on technicality.

Scary__goongala! > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 12:15

When in doubt, drift through the intersection at full tilt.

TheRealBicycleBuck > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc
08/18/2017 at 12:25

Sorry, this is wrong. It’s the other way around. From the Michigan Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices (Page 479):

No right turns on red arrows unless there’s a sign saying it’s ok.

Nibby > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 12:34

Teleport.

TheRealBicycleBuck > facw
08/18/2017 at 12:36

From the previous paragraph:

“Vehicular traffic facing a steady RED ARROW signal indication shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make another movement permitted by another signal indication....”

And now from the paragraph you quoted:

“When a traffic control device is in place permitting a turn on a steady RED ARROW signal indication....”

It’s pretty clear that another traffic control device must be in place which allows the movement when the red arrow is displayed. For example, a sign saying it’s ok to turn right on red:

Kinja'd!!!

This was pulled from my previous example where the right lane can turn on red, but the left lane cannot.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
08/18/2017 at 12:43

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

No worries.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Svart Smart, traded in his Smart
08/18/2017 at 12:48

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. Washington adopted the FHWA manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices. Right on red arrow is only allowed if there is additional signage indicating it is allowed.

If the light is a red circle, right on red is allowed unless there is additional signage prohibiting the turn.

Takuro Spirit > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 12:51

After thinking it was only legal to turn right on red from the INSIDE lane here in WI, I read the code and found ‘once you come to complete stop’ you can proceed to turn right on red from EITHER lane, provided there are no ‘NO TURN ON RED’ signs.

awmaster10 > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 12:54

I hate signs with written time periods listed. Especially if its different based on day. I sit at the right turn for like 10 seconds reading it and then by the time I realize I can turn on red its green.

ttyymmnn > awmaster10
08/18/2017 at 12:56

There’s one of those at my boys’ middle school to protect the kids as they walk to school. It always takes me forever to figure out what time it is.

awmaster10 > WilliamsSW
08/18/2017 at 12:57

Do they at least sweep over to the far lane? It would be a shitshow if both lanes were making rights on red but into the same lane sometimes.

wiffleballtony > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 12:59

Shoot the hostage

Kinja'd!!!

WilliamsSW > awmaster10
08/18/2017 at 13:18

They do. I think your concern is the reason why there’s usually a ‘no right on red’ sign when there’s 2 (or 3) turn lanes, but the same issue holds true when cars are turning right on green, too.

In my experience, the outside lane is generally pretty good about staying wide on the turn - it’s brain dead folks in the inside lane sweeping wide that can cause issues.

Berang > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 14:09

I’ve noticed around Austin that a lot of left turn lanes are having their green lights (functionally) replaced by flashing yellow arrows, and signs telling left turners to yield to oncoming traffic. Because apparently that’s just how fucking stupid Texas drivers are. They can’t make a left turn without a sign telling them how to do it while they’re doing it. Or maybe it’s for all the californians... in any event I don’t think I’ve been in a state with more clueless drivers on the road.

ttyymmnn > Berang
08/18/2017 at 14:11

I started noticing that first in Round Rock. Honestly, I find it more confusing. But I guess “left turn yield on solid green” is too much to contemplate.

Berang > ttyymmnn
08/18/2017 at 14:17

I’ve literally never seen it in any other state, so the first time I saw it here I was kind of astonished that anybody thought it was necessary.

ttyymmnn > Berang
08/18/2017 at 14:22

Somebody probably thinks they are helping.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/18/2017 at 14:43

Oops. Thanks for the info.

His Stigness > Berang
08/18/2017 at 18:13

I think we actually have a sign when the left turn is green but not an arrow, but it’s on a signal that can also have a solid yellow green arrow.

Found it!

Kinja'd!!!

So at the start of the cycle we get a green arrow and can go, then a yellow arrow, and then just the solid green arrow remains at which point we must yield.

And that sign and signal never confuse people, which is shocking.