Gestapo Creep (politics)

"Your boy, BJR" (jerseyshoreben) 08/15/2017 at 19:00 • Filed to: None

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

This guy really sucks. If you agree with the statements he made here, you suck too.

...I got nothing else.

Berang > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:06

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Things I hear trump saying in the future:

“Why is Lincoln the good guy? He started the civil war!”

“Sure, Hitler was bad, but it was a WORLD war, everybody was fighting!”

For Sweden > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:09

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This was his Chief of Staff during the press conference:

That is the look of a very disappointed parent.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:09

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Walking back a statement which already came 2 days too late...

What the actual fuck even is this alternate universe we’re in?

For Sweden > Berang 08/15/2017 at 19:15

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“The worst thing Hitler did was break the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. He was a terrible deal maker, just terrible. Nothing like me. I keep my deals, because I make the best deals people. The best deals.”

PS9 > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:16

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Or the look of someone mentally preparing their resignation. He’ll know it word for word by the time it needs to be typed down.

PS9 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 08/15/2017 at 19:20

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Don’t think about the folks living in that alternate universe where Earthgov has licensed it’s FTL tech to the rest of the galaxy with an annual profit of one hundred trillion trillion trillion dollars, and everyone on earth drives supercars and manual wagons. And every major city has an awesome racetrack in it...

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Berang 08/15/2017 at 19:21

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These are slightly different. Lincoln did sort of start the war, but it takes two to tango. The Confederates should have just cut the Union fort off. Lincoln should have, in turn, cut the south off economically. Slavery was already dying and had maybe 30 years, at most, before it became completely unsustainable. It died in the North and England because it was more expensive than paying poor people to work while living in abject poverty (as seen today in most of the world; not really that different from slavery except that the ownership class has zero concern for the wellbeing of the impoverished people that work for them).

Lincoln was a war monger and the Confederacy was stupid in not obliterating the Union government when they had the upper hand (and taking the north in the process). The problem was that the aims of both were asymmetric.

Hitler, on the other hand, was rather shady and attacked other countries.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:22

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And in before someone says he eventually condemned the Nazis, it’s kind of like when Sandusky was point blank asked if he was attracted to little boys and he waited to answer, if you automatically don’t condemn it, there’s a solid chance you are scum of the earth.

PS9 > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:22

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“Sure, voldemort tried to kill harry potter. But he caused Voldemort all sorts of trouble when he grew up! Do the alt-death eaters who tried to kill voldemort every chance they got carry any guilt? There’s violence and death on many sides! Many sides!”

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:24

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You can’t be borh a good American and a nazi/confederate nostalgic.

We literally had wars over this shit. The whole world was involved in the last one.

People should be able to comprehend this, once and for all.

For Sweden > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/15/2017 at 19:25

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The Confederacy literally fired the first shots.

For Sweden > PS9 08/15/2017 at 19:26

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Harry Potter fought to keep open a segregated school that only catered to those with the right genetics.

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:27

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That is the look of a very disappointed parent.

An interesting statement. Whenever I chastise my boys about doing something stupid, the first words out of their mouth is always the name of one of their brothers. “It’s not bad what I did because they do it too.” The word “puerile” doesn’t do this justice.

Kelly also has the look of somebody who desperately wishes he were somewhere else.

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:28

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But muh south will rise again!
/s

For Sweden > unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) 08/15/2017 at 19:29

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No Denmark will not rise again -_-

Berang > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/15/2017 at 19:29

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As opposed to drawing a comparison between George Washington who was one of the founding fathers, and Robert E. Lee who was just a lackey for the confederacy, on the basis that both of them owned slaves. Which is of course perfectly reasonable?

nermal > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:30

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I’ll bite. He’s not wrong.

The “protests” in Charlottesville were escalated and made more violent as a result of SOME of the “counter-protestors” and their actions.

That doesn’t excuse the nazis, the kkk, or other white supremacists from their backwards, hateful views and violent actions. This includes the driver of the Challenger. Nor does it give any support to them.

However, the actions of the violent “counter protesters” did help the nazis, etc, to strengthen their message and grow their cause.

Here’s a good article on the “violent left” from a traditionally left leaning publication:

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2017/08/the-atlantic-daily-august-15-2017/536910/

There isn’t a place in our current society for the backwards, hateful views of the nazis, etc. However, showing up to their gatherings and giving them EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT in terms of violent conflict does nothing to slow the nazis, etc, and only fuels them.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:31

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This is getting so ludicrous I can’t even... that was me in February. Now I’ve just given up. My estimated time frame for Trump survival as pres. was 6-9 months, almost there.

ttyymmnn > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:31

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Some people are saying, “Well, we don’t know who threw the first punch.” As far as I’m concerned, that doesn’t matter one bit. America lost hundreds of thousands of its citizens fighting against the spread of Nazism on somebody else’s turf. Now it’s on ours, and our president—OUR PRESIDENT—refuses to rebuke it. It’s stunning and sickening.

PS9 > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:32

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Well in that universe, having the right genetics basically means you have force powers. Think about that. You wanna send your normal kid up against someone that can teleport and turn people into animals? Your kid might not come back if you do that...

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:32

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Oppo COTD!

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:33

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You are now banned from /r/Lego

PS9 > ttyymmnn 08/15/2017 at 19:35

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So he looks like all of us, is what you’re saying?

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:35

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Correct

DipodomysDeserti > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/15/2017 at 19:35

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The point isn’t who started the war. The point is only a racist piece of shit would try to make that point.

Jesus fucking christ.

“Hitler was a bit shady”

For real?

We live amongst scum my fellow citizens.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/15/2017 at 19:36

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You can honestly not be serious

Nibby > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:36

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TREMENDOUS deals!

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:37

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“I’m not mad, I’m just very disappointed”

ttyymmnn > PS9 08/15/2017 at 19:38

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Yeah, pretty much.

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > Nibby 08/15/2017 at 19:44

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We have the BEST Nibby dont’t we folks?!

Nibby > unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) 08/15/2017 at 19:44

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yamahog > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:45

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*mods grabbing popcorn but at the same time would be happy with no fireworks*

Chariotoflove > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:48

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My wife often does a similar thing. I’m outraged about an injustic done to me, and she says supportive things. Then, she starts to ask me questions about my role in the situation and what I could have done to diffuse it or make it not as bad. I used to turn on her as a traitor. I’ve grown up a lot since then.

At this point, there is nothing Trump can do to make liberals happy. He’s right about that. Was there any violence on the anti-Nazi side? I don’t know. It seems like even suggesting that both sides might have acted inappropriately is a hanging offense. White supremacist groups think saying so is supporting them. They shouldn’t because it isn’t. They should be prosecuted for their behavior, and their opponents should act like adults and allow the Nazis to hang themselves. It’ll happ n faster if they do.

Cash Rewards > yamahog 08/15/2017 at 19:48

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Is “popcorn” mod code for banhammer?

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 19:49

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If they want their own state so much they can leave as far as I care. Maybe when all the ice melts in Antarctica they can go there.

McMike > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:50

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“And that good for nothing, liar Franklin D. Roosevelt. He purposely decived the American people by withholding the fact that he was a cripple. How could you run for four elections if you can’t even walk??? SAD!”

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 19:50

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He looks like he’s channelling Peter Cushing

For Sweden > McMike 08/15/2017 at 19:51

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But he kept us safe from the Alt-Japanese-Americans.

DipodomysDeserti > nermal 08/15/2017 at 19:52

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Coming from the hardcore/punk scene, I can assure you that violence works very well at ridding your culture of nazis. WWII vets also proved that blinding violence can rid your society of the nazi menance. Why are you suggesting we go soft on nazis?

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove 08/15/2017 at 19:53

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What’s wrong with acting violently towards nazis, and why are you referring to the opponents of nazis in the third person? Are you not also an “anti-nazi”. My grandfather was praised as a hero for literally killing dozens of nazis and he definitely wasn’t a liberal. He also definitely wouldn’t have been dumb enough to vote for Trump.

Audistein > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/15/2017 at 19:57

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Slavery was already dying and had maybe 30 years, at most, before it became completely unsustainable.

This is complete revisionist history. Slavery was bigger than ever at the time of the civil war. The number of slaves in the South doubled from 500,000 to  1,000,000 from 1780 to 1805, doubled again to 2,000,000 by 1830, and then doubled again to 4,000,000 by 1860, an all time high. It would’ve taken generations for slavery to be phased out in the South by economic causes.

Keeping slaves already owned was always cheaper than hiring workers. Not paying slaves while providing the most basic food was always far, far cheaper than actually paying workers. Additionally, the children of slaves remained slaves in every Southern state, which was extremely beneficial to slave owners.

In some situations it was cheaper for plantation owners to hire workers over buying new slaves if they didn’t have any, but if they already had slaves and those slaves’ children would be born into slavery, the institution was not going away any time soon. The slave population would have continued to grow.

Also the Confederates started the first battle in the Civil War with an unprovoked attack. The South technically formed their government before Lincoln was even sworn into office.

The Confederacy never stood a chance against the Union. The Union had an army over twice the size of the South, and at no point during the beginning of the war did the South have the resources to march into Union territory and defeat them. Again, revisionist history.

As for Hitler, as bad as it was the worst thing he did was not invade other countries. It was the holocaust.

Audistein > nermal 08/15/2017 at 20:12

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I’m sorry but saying that violence was on “both sides” when one side had peaceful protesters suffer from a terrorist attack is far from “not wrong”.

There were multiple examples of unarmed, peaceful counter-protestors being beaten with bats and pieces of wood. Actions such as these were not reciprocated against the white supremacists.

One side is filled with people who are aligning themselves with self-proclaimed hate groups, and while people can whine about antifa all they want but except for a few anarchist rioters in some major cities they’re not the major force the right-wing media portrays them to be. You can see who the counter-protesters getting into brawls in Charlottesville are and they clearly aren’t anarchists and you can tell they didn’t go there to fight. They don’t have weapons, they’re not covering their faces, they’re not wearing jackets, and most of them are actually 30+ years old. That’s not exactly antifa, is it?

To even equate the two sides of this conflict is incredibly offensive, inaccurate, and regressive. Violence stems from hate, and to put the blame on people demonstrating against people with KKK badges and Nazi flags is ridiculous. When one side turned up with torches, bats, and other weapons as well as hateful and intentionally prevocational imagery. It’s clear who is mainly at fault here.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/15/2017 at 20:37

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Wait, I’m sorry, who was it that fired on Fort Sumter again?

Signed,

Someone Who Lives In Charleston

DasWauto > DipodomysDeserti 08/15/2017 at 20:37

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Violence toward Nazis is a crime, just as it is when directed toward any other person and/or group. In a [relatively] peaceful society, that’s what’s wrong with it.

This isn’t a war, killing nazis isn’t going to earn anyone a medal. Violence is not the answer here.

Be very clear, I’m not trying to protect those people or their views in any way whatsoever.

The kkk, nazis, all white supremacist groups ought to be branded as terrorist organizations and their members and supporters prosecuted as such.

For Sweden > nermal 08/15/2017 at 20:48

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This last weekend was the Nazi’s get-together, and nothing would have happened if the Nazis had stayed home. It’s fine to give full-throated condemnations of Nazis in particular.

The commies and tankies will (unfortunately) give us plenty of opportunities to condemn them in the future.

Elumerere > Audistein 08/15/2017 at 21:04

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Thank you. The nerve of Eric to even write such rubbish down..

Elumerere > Audistein 08/15/2017 at 21:09

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To add:
One side’s whole reason for existing is a common shared hatred of everything perceived as ‘other’ with the endgoal of total destruction of said ‘other’.
(There have been statements recorded about :”we’ll throw you all in the oven” and one can read about their goals on daily stormer and stormfront and such, if one is still in disbelief).
The other side is formed as a counter-force. Antifa doesn’t exist without fascists. The ideal state of being for antifa is not needing to exist at all. The same cannot be said for the nazis.

DipodomysDeserti > DasWauto 08/15/2017 at 21:11

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Speeding is a crime as well.

“This is not a war”

You sure about that?

Sure looks like combat to me. The world has tried negotiating with nazis before. It doesn’t work.

Our society is peaceful relative to what, Syria? Last I checked we are the most violent first world country in the world.

Elumerere > DasWauto 08/15/2017 at 21:12

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I can get on board with that. Thing is though, that Keebler Elf Sessions just crossed all white supremacist groups in the US off the domestic terrorism database/watchlist.

So, that won’t happen anytime soon. So, what to do instead?

Elumerere > ttyymmnn 08/15/2017 at 21:13

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Exactly.

DasWauto > Elumerere 08/15/2017 at 21:25

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Charge them with/convict them of hate crimes, fine them heftily, create an intensive re-education program funded by exclusively by said fines, enforce attendance (jail) and strict criteria for successful completion?

Not a fully fleshed out plan by any means but there’s my suggestion.

PowderHound > Your boy, BJR 08/15/2017 at 21:27

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I just want to tell you, because I believe from past postings that you are a fan, that I saw rancid, drop kick murphys, and the selectee on Saturday and they were infuckingcredible

Elumerere > DasWauto 08/15/2017 at 21:36

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Oh, I know that can work, on some. And I’ve seen it work over in Europe, in small capacity.

But if the AG and the pres back these groups? And some of LE is at least partially stacked with sympathizers?
I wouldn’t hold my breath..

DasWauto > DipodomysDeserti 08/15/2017 at 21:39

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Speeding, seriously? Garbage analogy. Vastly more severe consequences for assault, hate crimes and murder, as they should be.

That’s not combat. Prepared for combat, sure, but not combat in and of itself. Extremely unsavoury, definitely, the intended effect is fear tactics.

I know very little about how gun laws factor into this but bringing such gear should disqualify their assembly from being deemed any sort of peaceful protest and those people should be prosecuted as such. (Again, their views, assembly and protest should be outlawed, dealt with in the first place, as I suggested earlier.)

Generally the US is a peaceful society so yeah, pick whatever basis for comparison you like, as you can see, my use of [relatively] is apt.

DasWauto > Elumerere 08/15/2017 at 21:45

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Given that experience and my suggestions above, you’d probably not be surprised to learn that I am European.

I don’t know how this would scale given the current political climate, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. All I can do is offer my thoughts and try to have some reasonable discourse to work toward possible solutions and try to inspire similar thinking in others.

[what is the LE you refer to btw? :/ I don’t know that acronym in this context].

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 21:46

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Yes, I’m well aware of that.

nermal > Audistein 08/15/2017 at 21:54

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You missed the point entirely.

The violence absolutely was two sided, and was even clearly shown on mainstream media such as CNN. Example:

How do you consider the stick wielding, bicycle helmet wearing counter protesters as “peaceful”? Don’t confuse them with the stick wielding, bicycle helmet wearing protesters / nazis / white supremacists. Also, don’t confuse them with the church choirs that WERE being peaceful.

Again, it’s not a matter of saying that one side (the nazis & friends) wasn’t clearly the one that “started it”. It’s also not a matter of defending the nazis & friends in any way for their viewpoints and actions. It is a matter of simply acknowledging that some of the counter protesters showed up looking for a fight, and they made the situation worse.

nermal > DipodomysDeserti 08/15/2017 at 21:57

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Violence is exactly what they want! Along with the attention that they have been getting.

Why are you suggesting that we give nazis (and other white supremacists) exactly what they want?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 08/15/2017 at 22:25

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Fort Sumter was within the borders of a sovereign nation. The military forces of a foreign country were instructed to leave by the government of that nation.

The Union could and should have been the good guys. They weren’t, it set a precedent, and that decision has resulted in fathomless bloodshed worldwide.

Just because the victors write the history books doesn’t mean they were ever in the right. Imagine how we’d react if the EU had a military, had a base in the UK, refused to vacate it when the UK withdrew from the EU, then utilized that force to punish the UK for leaving. Would you think it unreasonable if the UK insisted they leave? If their military took action against them? Would the EU be right to attack the UK and force it back into the EU?

Ultimately, I find all the leaders terrible, but I find Lincoln worse. Trump is a piece of shit, but so were every one of his predecessors. Both he and Obama promised to end foreign wars, but it looks like they’ll never end.

I don’t believe that acting as an aggressor in a war is ever justified. Peace should be a target at all costs.

Elumerere > DasWauto 08/15/2017 at 22:27

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LE = law enforcement

Hello, fellow European!

And yes, my mind is going back and forth between what’s to do with this as well. I hope to be able to trust in the institutions, but as Germany showed back in the early part of the 20th century (and Poland these days, Turkey as well, Hungary, Russia, plus in part the Brits) sometimes relying on institutions to do our dirty work gets us nowhere, only deeper into shit.

So yeah, ??? all over my face.

DipodomysDeserti > nermal 08/15/2017 at 22:28

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You seem very confused.

What they want is white supremecy, hence the name. They tried to get it through violence in the past, and lost. Now they’re trying the pokitical route which seems to be working for them. They made in roads into the punk and hardcore scenes in the ‘80s. They were eventually met with extreme violence and are now gone.

Not that you care about actually ridding the world of this scum.

DipodomysDeserti > DasWauto 08/15/2017 at 22:56

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Relative to third world countries, the US is peaceful. That doesn’t really help your case.

Also, what you’re proposing are illegal according to our Constitution. You’s have to pass amendments to change it which is not going to happen.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > For Sweden 08/15/2017 at 23:09

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“Hmm which is going to look better resigned of fired?’ “47 years of public service and this is how it ends”

For Sweden > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/15/2017 at 23:16

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“I didn’t defeat Ba’athists for this.”

DasWauto > DipodomysDeserti 08/15/2017 at 23:18

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The basis for comparison of peacefulness has no bearing on what I’ve suggested. You’re the one advocating a violent response to a subset of people within a first world country.

I don’t know the US consitution, I don’t live there. Work within its limits or toward amendmentif required.

As mentioned to someone else, all I can do is offer my thoughts, try to have a reasonable discourse and hope others can see things similarly.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/16/2017 at 00:08

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https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/16/could-the-south-have-won-the-war/

How would have the South won?

“Hitler, on the other hand, was rather shady and attacked other countries.”

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 08/16/2017 at 00:10

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That last bit was sort of a joke. I was equating Lincoln to Hitler, as they’re kind of in the same league of people that should be hated for all time.

OmerCarrothers333 > Your boy, BJR 08/16/2017 at 00:21

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I’m wore out by his bullshit

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Your boy, BJR 08/16/2017 at 00:21

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wow. today i agree with krauthammer. 2017 summed up

Jayhawk Jake > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/16/2017 at 00:32

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Fuck off, a leader that ultimately played a major part in ending slavery in no way relates to a man that tried to erase an entire ethnic group off the face of the planet simply because he didn’t like them

Jayhawk Jake > Chariotoflove 08/16/2017 at 00:36

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You’re right, trump isn’t going to win liberal approval. But it seems pretty fucking easy to say ‘nazis are bad’ and he won’t even do that.

Whether or not both sides behaved in the best way only one side was marching with Nazi flags.

I feel this shit is not being appreciated as it needs to. Anyone not immediately saying a group that associates itself with Nazism needs to go to a Holocaust museum right now and think about what a piece of shit they are

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/16/2017 at 00:42

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lincoln was responsible for the south seceeding before he was even inaugurated?

Fort sumter was federal property.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_enclave#Early_developments

The first federal enclaves were created by the same clause of the Constitution that created the District of Columbia . That clause provides for the United States to exercise “exclusive Legislation” over the new Seat of Government and “like authority” over:

“ all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts , Magazines , Arsenals , dock-Yards , and other needful Buildings. [8] ”

As a result of the Enclave Clause, whenever the state government consented to the purchase of property by the federal government for a needful building, the United States obtained exclusive legislative jurisdiction over that parcel of property. In 1841, the Congress enacted a general law requiring state consent for all federal building projects. [9] Moreover, the Attorneys General of the United States ruled that, in consenting to purchase, the States could reserve no jurisdiction except for the service of criminal and civil process.” [10]

jesus you can’t be serious comparing lincoln to hitler?

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 08/16/2017 at 00:43

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He backpedalled his condemnation today though.

Trump knows who supports him and he wants to keep their praise, and almost unsurprisingly the only real supporters he still has are racist, sexist, anti-semetic assholes on the far right.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Jayhawk Jake 08/16/2017 at 01:01

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His interest was never ending slavery. It was a byproduct, an easy way to gain power and maintain it. Just like Hitler played to his audience to gain and maintain power, Lincoln played to his.

In fact, you don’t even need to trust me, you can simply go read his very words deeply inscribed in huge text on the walls of the Lincoln Memorial.

Also, Hitler wasn’t exclusively interested in exterminating people. So many distill horrible tyrants to a single thing they want to love or hate.

My great grandparents, grand aunts & uncles, and everyone else that remained in Europe before WWII died at the hands of the Nazis. On my grandfather’s side, they died when Hitler himself ordered a massacre of all men and that the women/children be sent to concentration camps. On the other side of the family, members fought on the Union side of the civil war and I may be distantly related to a Confederate general.

It was all a waste and the result of following psychopaths and a foolish support of war. They were both evil people and deserve to be remembered as such. Being an aggressor in war is never a justifiable position.

DipodomysDeserti > DasWauto 08/16/2017 at 07:51

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“You’re the one advocating a violent response to a subset of people within a first world country.”

Here come the euphemisms. Are you serious? They aren’t a subset of people. They are nazis. Nazis advocating for the violent removal of people who aren’t of white European heritage from our society. What I’m avocating for is self defense. Anyone who wants to have a reasonable discourse with nazis is either extremely naive or a nazi sympathizer.

Party-vi > Your boy, BJR 08/16/2017 at 08:25

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I’m going to start calling you The Chef, because your posts cook up shit sandwiches in the comment section. A++

Your boy, BJR > Party-vi 08/16/2017 at 08:33

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lol I have yet to check. I assure you it’s not just here tho, I stirred up shit on my cousin’s Facebook by telling him that by saying everyone deserves a voice, he’s spitting in the face of our WWII Vet great grandfather’s legacy. So that’s fun.

Party-vi > Your boy, BJR 08/16/2017 at 08:42

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Everyone does deserve a voice, but that doesn’t mean everyone else has to listen. Also I appreciate your ability to start family in-fighting.

Your boy, BJR > Party-vi 08/16/2017 at 08:48

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Nazis deserve a voice as much as.....well....nazis deserve a voice! I can’t think of anything that deserves something less than nazis deserve voices.

fintail > DasWauto 08/16/2017 at 09:23

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What would happen if a group of country fried rubes in cosplay gear and hooked crosses marched around in Canuckistan?

fintail > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/16/2017 at 09:27

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Which words in particular?

Still no data on how Lincoln “sort of” started the war? Which is it? Either he did or he didn’t.

The biggest shame is that the victors weren’t a little harsher on the leaders of the vanquished. Traitors should be treated as such. I am not sure if any credible voices claim the Confederacy could have “obliterated” the Union, either, I would love to see that data.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/16/2017 at 10:26

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If that is the case then your ancestors would be ashamed of you.

Hitler wanted to subjugate or kill all non-aryan peoples, and the confederate states seceded over the state’s rights to own slaves.  

The only shame is that both were allowed to do it for far too long (the north isn’t blameless in slavery that’s for sure, but I’ll take good results for the wrong reasons if those good results are freed slaves).

Get the fuck out of here comparing Lincoln “I hate slavery but the constitution doesn’t specifically address it” to Hitler “I love me some jew-skin lamps”

Sweet Trav > DasWauto 08/16/2017 at 10:44

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Violence towards Nazis and white supremacists is preemptive self-defense. Not because I am person of color, or Jewish. But because if/when they have power they will strike and I will defend equality by any means necessary. That makes me, a snowflake white boy with light hair and light eyes their enemy, a “traitor to my race”. I’m not talking about grandpa with his old time-y casual racism. He isn’t calling for the eradication of a subset of people.

Also we do not live in a peaceful society. The government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. The government has also failed their promises under the 14th amendment to provide equal protection to the citizens of this country. i.e. the disproportionate use of force towards people of color. Take the government response to protesters in urban areas vs literal Nazi’s. Why weren’t there SWAT vans and APC’s managing the Nazis with torches?

PS9 > Chariotoflove 08/16/2017 at 12:44

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It seems like even suggesting that both sides might have acted inappropriately is a hanging offense.

‘acted inappropriately’?? Beating someone down in a parking lot with weapons while shouting, ‘die nigger!’ is not an impropriety. It is assault with a deadly weapon. Running a person down in a vehicle that kills them, two others, and seriously injures ten other people is not an impropriety. It is, at least, three counts of murder and ten counts of assault with a deadly weapon. These actions are not those of lone gunman. They are the direct product of white supremacist and nazi ideology, which teaches that non-white, non-aryan people are subhuman animals fit for destruction and nothing else, along with any foolish white aryan who renders assistance to the sub-humans.

Conservatives do not advocate for this. Liberals do not advocate for this. Republicans do not advocate for this. Democrats do not advocate for this. The Green party does not advocate for this. The Libretarian party does not advocate for this. No one but the nazis want this. To suggest that Nazis are just ‘another side’ like all those other political groups, that they should have a seat at the table of legitimacy and normalcy as they do, for them to gain even that degree of power and influence is to suggest that racism, white supremacy and genocide are debateable ideas. They are not. All of those things are morally reprehensible, and anyone advocating for their existence as public policy we should all be subject to has no business wielding even bit of governing power anywhere in the United States, period.

At this point, there is nothing Trump can do to make liberals happy.

Saying, ‘yes of course nazis are are bad, and the people they assaulted and killed the other day are examples of domestic terrorism’ is not about placating liberals. Mitch McConnell is not liberal. Ted Cruz is not liberal. Orrin Hatch is not liberal. John McCain is not liberal. Mitt Romney is not liberal. All of these are figures of conservatism, and yet all of them were able to 1) easily state the first sentence of this paragraph immediately and 2) call out Trump for his failure to do the same.

Was there any violence on the anti-Nazi side? I don’t know.

Well here, let me answer that for you; no. There is no side that preaches the violent extermination of everyone else while declaring their own arbitrary superiority. Nazis and white supremacists are the ones who do that. They are unique in that, which why the notion that there is ‘some other side’ that preaches what they do but are different some how is a load of unvarnished bullshit.

White supremacist groups think saying so is supporting them. They shouldn’t because it isn’t.

No. Consider the following question. “Do you masturbate to picture of naked children?” For someone who cannot even give an answer, nevermind an a immediate ‘absolutely not’, there non-answer is an answer. The only reason one would not give an answer here is because know it would not be acceptable if they did.

White supremacists and nazis are correct to interpret trump’s non-answer as an answer, because that’s what it is, and now that he has doubled down on the non-answer with a healthy dose of more ‘ both sides’ equivocation bullshit, we know exactly what the non-answer means and there is no denying it.

They should be prosecuted for their behavior, and their opponents should act like adults and allow the Nazis to hang themselves. It’ll happ n faster if they do.

That has been tried already. Their opponents did ‘act like adults’ and the result was execution or imprisonment for treason against the state. Then came the millions of deaths through warfare and genocide. When you are facing an opponent who intends to destroy you once they have the power, ‘acting like an adult’ is passivity, which is the exact opportunity they need to win.

Nazis are not concerned with ‘being adults’. And they’re definitely not concerned with honor or fairness. Fighting honorably against a dishonorable opponent creates only the moral obligation to lose.

DasWauto > fintail 08/16/2017 at 13:28

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Good question. What I suggested above for the US is also how I believe those people should be dealt with here.

IIRC, there was an anti-immigration protest in Edmonton or Calgary a few months ago. It was in response to the government’s continued Syrian refugee program and a contingent of white supremacists showed up and counter-protest followed. It didn’t escalate to the level of that in Charlottesville; I do believe there were some confrontations but nothing too serious.

Overall, I would say that their beliefs are probably more widely condemned and shunned in Canada than they might be in the states. I don’t think they’re dealt with as severely as they should be, but it is better here.

DasWauto > Sweet Trav 08/16/2017 at 13:35

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As I’ve said to Skychismo, pre-emptive self-defence would be nigh-on impossible to justify legally. I think it would become a first amendment issue. That’s why I advocate against a violent response and make alternative suggestions.

I’m going to have to plead ignorance to respond to your comments on classifying the US as a peaceful society - I don’t know the 14th amendment. While I’d suggest that the government having a monopoly on the use of physical is probably the way it ought to be, I’d agree that there should have been SWAT vans and APCs to manage the nazis as you suggest (again, they should’ve been further dealt with as I suggested above).

Chariotoflove > PS9 08/16/2017 at 14:42

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I don’t want to get into a heated argument, but I’m going to respond to you because my impression of you has always been that you are a level headed person who deserves a thoughtful answer.

There is nothing redeeming about the Nazi ideology or groups that espouse it. I think we all agree on that (or at least no one has piped up on here who says otherwise). What they preach is simply evil and has no place in peaceful society. However, for good or ill, our own Constitution protects their right to proclaim their garbage as long as it’s done in a lawful manner. That means we need to be careful and considered in how we confront and deal with their excrement so as not to trample our own principles in the process. More on that in a sec.

I just went back to see what Trump said in his press conference and what the VP said in his published comments. I saw them both very clearly condemn nazis and nazism. I am reading a lot about how Trump didn’t broadcast his condemnation soon enough or stridently enough, and that’s what I meant about how he can’t make liberals happy. I myself wish he came out even louder and more forcefully, but I have to admit he did condemn them. Where I see he got himself into trouble is after that: 1) he suggested that there were people pretesting the statue removal that were not nazis and were decent people and 2) that the anti-nazi protesters also acted violently. So I tried to fact check that for a few minutes. Let’s look at that.

I was not able to find in my cursory examination of the reporting whether there were protesters present who were not affiliated with the neo-nazi group. It’s possible. I am a yank who has lived in Texas for 17 years now, and I have noticed, sometimes with amusement I confess, that confederate pride is still a thing in some corners. It’s not an attempt to espouse racism or a return to the oppression of those times. It’s more a pride in the heritage of an independent-minded people with a unique southern culture as distinct from what the North forced on them after its victory. I’m sure I’m doing a poor job explaining it because I don’t really get it, and I personally think it’s kind of misplaced to identify these ideas with the Confederacy because of all the misguided ideals of segregation and slavery that are wrapped up with that institution. Still, I have to recognize that people who revere symbols like the Confederate battle flag and Robert E. Lee do not always identify as racists. Do you remember The Dukes of Hazzard TV show? I do. The characters were well loved “good ole boys” who had a car with that flag on it called the General Lee. Everybody loved that show. My sister as a tween had a poster of those two guys, and there is not a racist bone in her body. All that said, I think this movement to preserve the Confederate symbols and lionize them as public figures is unfortunate and misguided given their associations with concepts that fly in the face of human rights and equality in our country. But, I tell you that all those around me who want their Confederate symbols are not necessarily racist. Were there any such people at that rally in Charlottesville? I can’t find any evidence of that, and I think it was stupid of Trump to say so unless he could point to specific and verifiable evidence of it because it makes him look like an apologist for the nazi demonstrators.

Was there violence on the part of the anti-nazi protesters in Charlottesville? On CNN and other major outlets I find descriptions of violent clashes between both groups. That seems to indicate yes, although surely not the equivalence of bad behavior on both sides that the president’s language suggested. But I keep reading from you and others the sentiment that any violence against those nazis is deserved and good and necessary. To that I say “No, no, NO!” I want to smash those people in the face, too, they make me so mad and disgusted, but we CANNOT condone that. If we do, we make ourselves more like them. We are a people of laws, not lynch mobs, and we need to stay that way. Don’t let those racist bastards get us to degrade ourselves. If we become apologists for such behavior as long as its from the “right side”, then we do two things: 1) we erode the laws that protect all of us from ideological violence and make it that much easier for the racists to bring us back to a state where the one with the biggest sword wins, and 2) we allow the racists to assume victim status as an oppressed group. This helps then put on a mantle of legitimacy when they go recruiting. Let’s not give them that tool.

So what do we do? If I had my preference, I would not have had the anti-nazi protest right there and in their face. It could have been done at another location, or many locations, perhaps as a candle light vigil in support of peace and racial harmony. In this day and age, there could have been a huge web presence targeted to rebut the racist protesters and remind everyone of the racist ideologies those demonstrators were there to defend. Instead of getting down in the dirt with them, we shine the light of day on those people and expose them for the purveyors of garbage that they are. Meanwhile, we educate people, especially our children, so they know to turn their backs on the lies those people are selling. That’s how we defeat them. That’s how we prevent another holocaust from happening.

Audistein > nermal 08/16/2017 at 21:37

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I don’t think I’m the one missing the point here. We’re seeing bipartisan, near universal condemnation of Trump’s statement throughout society and politics right now, and yet you’re still trying to defend it.

It doesn’t matter if a few, small number people showed up with bicycle helmets because they wanted to fight Nazis, to equate both sides is simply morally reprehensible. It’s not equal blame here, and everyone understands that.

Also even in that video I didn’t see any counter-protestors with sticks or baseball bats. Only the white supremacists had any proper weapons-like objects besides flimsy signs.