Let's have an awkward, but open discussion about that Google memo and the engineer who was fired for it.

"Honeybunchesofgoats" (honeybunche0fgoats) 08/08/2017 at 10:16 • Filed to: None

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But as a ground rule, let’s all agree that no one should participate without first acknowledging that no one is going to change their opinions on this matter and there’s nothing to gain by getting aggressively confrontational and causing drama. I just think it would be nice to have a bit of an open forum on this.

Background: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320

I’ll start by saying that I’m really ambivalent about this. I’ll cop to having very little patience for libertarian Silicon Valley bullshit, and as a luddite, I really cannot stand any aspect of that culture. When I hear people talk about the tech industry and disrupting and all of that, it’s like when people were trying to make D.C. a thing. It just makes me depressed.

Having read the entire memo, I also think that the author is a dipshit and probably completely obnoxious to be around. He makes some reasonable points that are easy to identify with if you’re open to them already, but then he follows up with shit like IQ being based on biology, “deemphasizing empathy,” and “men like things, women like people.” There’s an underlying sociopathy to the whole thing that is couched in what is presented in a reasoned and thoughtful argument for accepting unpopular views.

On the other hand.

I’m the last person to advocate firing people for expressing unpopular opinions, because I have a sense of self-preservation.

Also, as a somewhat old, I really, really hate the extreme direction that people who share my leftist politics have been heading in. I’m all for calling people out publicly and denouncing hateful or nasty views, but there’s been a move towards establishing an orthodoxy on the left for every view and opinion and punishing people for deviating from it. This is made worse by the fact that this orthodoxy doesn’t always seem to have been based on reality, but on social media.

On the other, other hand, he seems like a complete dipshit, and I’m an awful and bitter enough person that I can take joy out of seeing some concern troll get hoisted by their own petard, even if it’s somewhat tempered by serving to make them feel validated about their pathetic victim complex.

CalzoneGolem > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:21

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Hmmmm let’s not.

Honeybunchesofgoats > CalzoneGolem 08/08/2017 at 10:23

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This is also an acceptable response.

WilliamsSW > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:23

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I’m with you on all of that, start to finish - - but with a twist on his firing. I would argue that he wasn’t fired so much for expressing an unpopular opinion, as he was for bringing massively bad PR to his employer. And that, to me, is a firable offense.

But yeah, soooo much this:

Also, as a somewhat old, I really, really hate the extreme direction that people who share my leftist politics have been heading in. I’m all for calling people out publicly and denouncing hateful or nasty views, but there’s been a move towards establishing an orthodoxy on the left for every view and opinion and punishing people for deviating from it. This is made worse by the fact that this orthodoxy doesn’t always seem to have been based on reality, but on social media.

crowmolly > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:25

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I’m the last person to advocate firing people for expressing unpopular opinions, because I have a sense of self-preservation.

Dude is a scumbag and firing him is appropriate. And I’m not just saying that because it’s probably the popular answer.

If you have opinions that you know will get you in trouble you shut the fuck up and keep them to yourself. You absolutely can be fired for them. If you want to take the social aspect out of it, go the monetary way. If a company doesn’t take action in a situation like this, that sends a message that it’s OK, and they will lose money. That’s against the corporate objective. Therefore, hit the bricks.

You can open your mouth and say what you want but that does not mean others have to be tolerant of your message and it does not free you from any blowback. This is applicable to both the far left and far right.

tpw_rules > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:28

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My objection to the letter is two-fold:

1. This is pretty much the definition of creating a hostile work environment. I would not be comfortable working with co-workers who thought that about me or other members of the team. While not mentioned in the letter, I suspect any display/acknowledgement of my particular minority would receive some disdain from people like him. If I know my co-workers are thinking like that, I know they’re silently failing to trust me and my work, and that’s not something I want to deal with.

2. The other interesting point is that him and people like him may be involved with Google’s research into machine learning. I’m in the field, and there’s a huge problem with unacknowledged and promulgated bias. Knowing people like this are driving that future does not make me happy. But that’s more of a personal opinion and less of a fireable offense.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:29

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I read some of it, not all because I couldn’t stand the guy. Honestly if I ever were to interact with him I’d most likely end up getting into a physical altercation. Men like him are the reason why I believe every guy needs a good ass whoopin at least once in his life. I’m talking about the kind of beating that leaves you sitting on the ground trying to figure out what the fuck just happened, teaches you a bit of perspective IMHO.

That being said, I agree with what seems to be the movement towards orthodoxy. I feel it’s counterproductive to us actually figuring viable solutions to the issues we face today.

Nibby > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:31

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Let’s talk about pizza.

Ash78, voting early and often > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:31

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I read it all and was actually kind of refreshed to see someone “say what so many of us are thinking” (as we so often say about standup comics, Presidential candidates, etc) for better or worse. On one hand, it was nice to see someone call Google out for some of their bullshit and for some leftist tenets in general. I’d rate it 6/10.

However, his casual use of generalizations really weakened pieces of it and allowed his critics to tear him a new asshole, which probably entitles him to special restroom privileges at Google. You know, if he still worked there.

At my age, I’m sort of past all this ultra-extreme politicization garbage. I have no time for leftist “safe spaces” or “trigger warnings” or things that serve to artificially protect people from the natural world around them. But I also have zero time for xenophobia, homophobia, or pretending that we can live in some cultural or economic isolationism that some of the right seems to be advocating.

Honeybunchesofgoats > WilliamsSW 08/08/2017 at 10:31

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That’s a really good point. #1 rule of not getting fired is that you never stir up shit for your employer.

To add to that, if he had just sent this memo to his superiors as a way to express his concerns with his work environment, I wouldn’t really have an issue with it at all (although I’d still strongly object to the content). This wasn’t something that needed to be disseminated throughout the organization, especially knowing that it would leak out. Although I don’t necessarily believe that this didn’t go exactly the way he intended for it to go.

Also, to be fair, anyone who sends anything to everyone at a company deserves to be fired. Out of a cannon if it’s a ten page memo.

bob and john > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:32

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here is a wild ground breaking idea.

how about we hire people based on their skills in a field and nothing else? no diversity quota, no politics, nothing else but skills.

Jcarr > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:32

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I’m not going to wade into the meat of this particular issue. As a tangent, though, I find the willingness that people have to try to ruin someone’s life for having a bad or differing opinion disturbing and dismaying.

Wacko > WilliamsSW 08/08/2017 at 10:34

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In the age of social media this firing is totally the norm

I had to sign a Document 2 weeks ago about our social media presence and our Company. Doesn’t affect me personally since my only Online presence is here on Oppo and i’m a John Doe here.

crowmolly > bob and john 08/08/2017 at 10:34

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Can’t get around implicit bias.

Honeybunchesofgoats > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 08/08/2017 at 10:34

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I used to think my mom was a terrible parent for making me get into fights with other kids despite knowing I’d get pounded. That was still probably terrible parenting, but at least I don’t send out ten page memos about my own victim complex.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:35

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I go by what MLK said:

“I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

This is my philosophy when dealing with ALL people not just people of diffrent color but also sex, religion, and social/economic status. Seems to be a good way to make friends and identify dip shits.

Honeybunchesofgoats > Nibby 08/08/2017 at 10:35

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I can’t discuss pizza with anyone who thinks Chicago-style is good without saying things that will get me banned from Oppo, so let’s not.

dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:35

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This one bothers me less than the firing of Brendan Eich, who was fired for making a campaign contribution years prior.

Again, I’m with you as being “leftist”, or probably more centrist on some things, but I do see the move away from an acceptance of a plurality of viewpoints to be a disturbing shift.

I’d also agree that this particular guy seems pretty fringe. I find the “women aren’t good at math” bullshit especially silly since my daughter just tested off the charts in quantitative reasoning, which neither me nor my wife are, but my sister is. I’m no dummy, but my sister is able to do things in math that I never could (and not for lack of trying).

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:36

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The only reason this is getting media attention is because it’s a large, public company. Plenty of other people get fired for being shitdicks but you don’t see NY Times articles about them. This dude should have been quietly canned but Google detractors are just going to use this to rabble-rouse and try to damage its reputation. The media attention has nothing to do with the actual act of shitdickery.

functionoverfashion > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:38

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If you make public statements that run counter to the environment that your employer is trying to cultivate within the company, you may suffer consequences. That’s what I see happening here.

I agree with your sentiment that we, as a society, shouldn’t slap down anyone who says anything counter to inclusion, tolerance, diversity, whatever - one is free to have those opinions and speak about them publicly, and the government cannot arrest you for such statements. However, your employer may feel you are no longer a fit for the company based on your opinions and public statements. It depends how their policies are written as to whether it is grounds for outright dismissal.

WilliamsSW > Wacko 08/08/2017 at 10:38

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We could debate whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but yeah, you’re totally right. Companies guard their public image very carefully (or at least they should), and in this day and age, many of their employees have the ability to easily damage that image - leading to very public firings.

Ha - this is my only online presence, as well, albeit less John Doe (my one regret on Oppo is not setting up a more vague username...)

WilliamsSW > Ash78, voting early and often 08/08/2017 at 10:40

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Hear hear! I’m hoping at some point that we can get past the extreme bullshit on both sides of the political spectrum...

Textured Soy Protein > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:40

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There’s a very simple reason why he got fired:

In a company that organizes people into project teams to work on a particular piece of an overall technology puzzle, who could a manager reasonably assign to a team with this guy, now that he’s publicly expressed his idiotic viewpoints to the whole company?

TorqueToYield > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:41

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Opinions aren’t facts and narcissists don’t seem to grasp the difference.

Just because you strongly believe something (like men are biologically better at coding, or an at will employee can’t be fired for any reason at all, or the 1st amendments guarantee to free speech extends beyond government) doesn’t make it true. No matter how loud you yell.

Honeybunchesofgoats > bob and john 08/08/2017 at 10:42

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I don’t, on the face of it, object to that argument. But my professional experience is that there are very, very few cases where a position is completely based on being inherently superior in a position. Athletes have inherently superior skills, but for most people, the difference comes down to having had the opportunity to develop the required skillset. There’s absolutely nothing about my marketability or skills in my job that isn’t almost entirely due to dumb luck.

WilliamsSW > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:42

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It would be interesting to know whether he intended for it to go this public or not - - I lean toward your view, that he’s not that disappointed. And the fact that he retained counsel suggests that he’s going to try some butthurt reverse discrimination angle, but I suspect that won’t go well, for the reason I noted.

And HELL YEAH to your last paragraph.

Honeybunchesofgoats > Jcarr 08/08/2017 at 10:42

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I can agree with this entirely, and it’s one of the ugliest aspects of modern life and technology.

bob and john > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:43

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yea...story of my life.

shpuker > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:43

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I havne’t read it in detail so I’ll refrain from throwing too much of an opinion at it other than to say the guy damn well knew what the repercussions from writing that memo were going to be.

Also see this write up by “Mother Jones”: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/theres-something-odd-about-that-google-memo/

I think it does a nice job of pointing out my initial observation in a more thought out and insightful manner.

“There was something about the amateurishness of his analysis that seemed strained, as if he was playing a role. And that role was simple: not to write about why he thought Google’s diversity programs were misguided, but to write something as offensive as possible in a way that allowed him plausible deniability. In other words, he was trying to get fired so he could portray himself as a lonely martyr to Silicon Valley’s intolerance for conservative views.” 

Honeybunchesofgoats > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 08/08/2017 at 10:44

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I promise you that he’s going to parlay this into a full-time career.

notsomethingstructural > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:45

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I don’t think it was as bad as people make it sound. I don’t think he should have been fired. I think Google should have looked at his memo, and rather than do what he suggested, do the total opposite and figure out how to educate staff to understand why these programs exist.

Finally, a program that’s only for white men - “Unconscious Bias: Why Diversity is Good”

Wheelerguy > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:49

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1. That guy could use a shot of whisky or two. And an RKO Outta Nowhere.

2. For me, personally, if the left really want positive inclusion, then they should allow breathing room to express themselves without too many limitations or enforced style guides.

3. That said, social media’s reach is already strong and set, and can you really blame other leftists for being this insufferable in its well-intentioned quest to Make Things Right? It’s the right who shot first, and from my forays in r/The_Donald’s Discord page, they won’t stop firing. And we’ve done pretty much everything to counter them, sometimes defending and attacking at the same time. But the left must realize that this is what the right feeds on the most. It’s the same with terrorism. Take away terror, and half the battle is won. Similarly, by merely turning away and disengaging (or turning away and fart-bombing them), and by ridding these people of platforms... OK, really, that last suggestion is a slippery slope. Then again, though, if the alt-right wants to claim free speech and weaponize it against others, we should ramp up efforts to amplify the voice of the truly little and oppressed.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:50

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I feel that the whole “My coworkers are biologically inferior” stance sealed his fate. I don’t know where everyone else is working but that will get you fired pretty much anywhere I’ve been at. So I don’t get why everyone is acting like google was obligated to keep him on for having “a difference of opinion”. He literally said “My coworkers who aren’t like me genetically, are inferior to me”. Pretty safe bet that your ass is canned.

That being said - fire him and move on. Making this some big news story gives a terrible idea some legs to stand on. It wasn’t even that well argued of a point. I have seen, and probably will continue to see, efforts for “diversity” backfire or go too far. And sometimes people will come up short. People are people. They’ll make mistakes. It’ll get figured out in the end if everyone just takes a breath and tries to be empathetic to everyone instead of running for the pitchforks and looking for a hill to die on.

I don’t know if google has a genuine problem or not. And I’m not going to figure that out with 5 minutes of googling (ironically). But whatever point the guy could’ve made, he shot himself in the foot real fast. That’s my take from this - if he had a point, it is irrelevant now. And he did it to himself by trying to point out how right he is instead of letting an idea or argument exist on its own merit. To put it another way, I deal with scientists on a daily basis. If you spend most of our time telling me how educated you are, how many people you know, and how technical you can be, then I can safely reason that what you’re about to say is bullshit. Arguing that “Well, I am smart and educated therefore my point is correct” is not how the world works.

Wacko > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:52

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Rumor is Trump is looking to give him a job in the Whitehouse

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:58

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I bet he’s getting a full time position at Breitbart Media.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:58

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My dad always taught me to never back down from a fight, but also to look for one either.

I’m pretty sure that guy has a lot of hang ups regarding women and how they should treat his royal highness. Entitled dipshit seems to be a fitting description for him.

Ash78, voting early and often > bob and john 08/08/2017 at 10:59

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Because many skills (especially soft skills) are important, yet hard to quantify. We could make everyone take some kind of test, but it might be biased somehow. Or it could miss the mark on exactly what the job entails. Or the job could change over time, meaning the perfect candidate today isn’t so great a year from now. I work at a huge, public company and most of our hiring is based on word-of-mouth because there’s still a believe that character and work ethic often trump “hard skills,” even in quantitative disciplines.

Our department head and about a third of our middle managers are women if that means anything at all. Everywhere I’ve worked, women have done at least as well as men, so I never really quite know where all this pay equity anger is coming from.

uofime-2 > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 10:59

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typical pizza elitist

Ash78, voting early and often > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 11:00

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If I wanted Chicago-style pizza, I’d just melt a bunch of string cheese in a bowl and dip breadsticks in it.

uofime-2 > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 08/08/2017 at 11:01

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blaming everyone else for one’s own inadequacies is a time honored tradition

Ash78, voting early and often > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 11:02

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By the way, I totally support his firing. This was such a charged missive, I actually assumed he had just been fired (or was quitting). You simply don’t talk this much shit about your employer and hope to keep your job — tenfold more so if it leaks out to the general public. This is like “Suicide by Cop, Professional Edition”

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > bob and john 08/08/2017 at 11:07

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The problem with that argument is that it’s never that simple. Team dynamics, personality and ability to learn all have equal weight to the qualifications of the applicant. Especially in the tech industry, you need to be able to work with other people who may or may not have a different approach to finding a solution to how you do it.

There have been quite a few cases where I’ve recommended an applicant that had less experience but was more eager to learn new things over an applicant who while more “qualified” for the job, didn’t really show much enthusiasm about learning new things.

RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire > tpw_rules 08/08/2017 at 11:09

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#2 actually affects his work output ... that might have been the more fireable offense later on.

promoted by the color red > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 11:12

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I kept getting bad flashbacks to every pseudo-intellectual crybaby I’ve met who spoke like that and used subjective reasoning (e.g. the whole personality differences BS) to make their arguments. I counted zero objective evidence in any of the arguments, just a whole bunch of “well, women have traditionally been more emotional! Leadership is too strenuous!” and “the left/right is XYZ”.

Google had to fire the guy. Say what you will about expressing one’s opinions, but this guy revealed himself to be a HR nightmare and a liability for the company. Think of it this way, he’s currently an engineer without influence or power (otherwise we would know his name). What happens when he makes manager and there’s a choice between promoting a woman or a man? Google could have looked the other way if he kept his mouth shut, but not any more.

CobraJoe > Jcarr 08/08/2017 at 11:13

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There are people who have “bad” opinions, and there are people who openly and loudly express their “bad” opinions.

One is tolerable, one can easily make for bad press or bad relations at a worldwide company.

NYankee1927 > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 11:19

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I think your points are spot on. I def think this guy is crazy and a bit of an asshole. But as a society it seems like we are getting less and less accepting of how people’s opinion differs.

Also this guy is a smart engineer. Engineers arnt really known for their social skills and I think even though he is wrong, there could have been better ways of delivering his opinion to not piss everyone off, but society doesn’t really want to give anyone a break for that anymore. I know this becuase I am the same way and I’m sure if I ever do get fired it’s because of speaking my mind without thinking about the delivery or situation.

For Sweden > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 11:20

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Anyone even tangentially related to programming already knew Google and their employees are trash.

Gamecat235 > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 11:51

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As a former Chicagoan who thinks that pizza that can be easily and accurately calculated in thickness by millimeters is a weird, pointless, and ultimately unsatisfying endeavor, I can say that you are wrong. But I respect that you have differing opinions, even if they are wrong.

Of course, I also can no longer eat pizza thanks to my body deciding (later in life, which sucks) that dairy is trying to kill me, and so Chicago-Style Pizza would probably leave me in ruins for quite a while, so take that with as many grains of salt as you would like.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 12:17

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The tech industry has one of the highest concentrations of libertarians in any profession, as well as people on the autistic spectrum. In fact, I’ve seen a strong pattern of the two being concentrated at the top. A top-performing engineer typically holds many libertarian viewpoints and be only marginally socially functional. It’s so consistent that I’ve noticed it for the last 20+ years in the industry. All the exceptional tech workers I know are libertarians (as mentioned above, your top engineers tend to be these), usually surrounded by conservatives (they are the dominant day-to-day tech worker at most companies, particularly in IT and software maintenance), and management is usually left-wing/socialist (that oppresses both of the above in a social context; I believe that the current baseless left-wing ideology and much of modern science is turning into a religion, mirroring the process by which a series of historic religions developed).

The dynamic is interesting. I have worked with numerous people in tech circles that I’d describe as radically and unabashedly conservative. These people usually worked in the corporate world for a while and now work outside formal structure as consultants/contractors, independent headhunters, or similar. Some departments have a strong internal conservative culture if the leader was promoted from within and they enjoy some level of isolation from management. I have encountered extreme-left-wing people in entry-level tech positions (primarily desktop/tech support), but they seem to have severe social problems within the groups, even though management tends to love them.

Tech actually is a very strange place. It might be worse than even traditional engineering, which is almost as strange. Women that get in are usually high performers, but they’re exceedingly rare. In over two decades on tens of teams, I have never worked as a direct peer to a woman. The more elite the group, the rarer women are found even in peripheral roles. I have worked with women in test/QA, management, and interdepartmental customer contexts, but they are almost never engineers or developers. I once visited a vendor in Victoria, BC, (an extremely progressive area with regard to gender equality in a very progressive country) that had over 70 developers and not one of them was a woman (circa 2008), although there were a handful in those peripheral roles.

I don’t know the specific cause of this as it goes against some of what I’ve written above. The couple women I’ve encountered that were developers in a professional context (working with partners/vendors, never on teams I belonged to) and the handful I’ve encountered in a social/OSS context (online and at tech events) were exceptional (and very similar to their male counterparts in political ideologies).

One thing I will say on this is that there is a strong stigma about it among women. I encounter many that can’t seem to grasp how to work with computers (cause is uncertain), but I have also encountered numerous accounting offices full of women banging out spreadsheets with a decent amount of functions/code behind them. A lot of men claim they are helpless with technology as well, yet they all seem to learn if they can get over their fears. Among women I’ve dated (a very poor sampling because it implies they’ll put up with a guy with an ASD), half were only able to do things like surf the web, play games, etc. The other half were able to maintain their own computers, incorporate the use of functions/equations in spreadsheets, and/or do light programming. My wife is so good at it that I keep threatening to teach her to code so we can afford one of these 1M+ homes around here, because I know she could do it - she already does basic desktop support around her office, teaches spreadsheet/database concepts, and untangles messes for others on a daily basis. She just has a mental block about accepting that she really can do it.

Obviously, this is all anecdotal, but from what I’ve seen I could definitely see jumping to many of the same conclusions this guy jumped to. He probably rarely worked with a woman, saw this very oppressive political dynamic first-hand, and made a logical jump (as people in this field are prone to - we’re dominated by intuitive type thinkers) to conclusions that are poorly founded.

Then again, maybe there are some deeper truths that we don’t want to accept that he has touched on. The reaction seems to tell me that it’s not completely unreasonable, as people simply dismiss totally baseless rants.

sony1492 > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 12:28

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Semi-Offtopic, It seems like these days non issues become big issues with lots of focus for no reason. Like the fact that there is even a debate about who can merry who, or that whole pro-life bs. Or Google firing a dipshit is news. I struggle to understand how people come up with these arguments and stick with them, and all for what? So they get their way? So they can feel comfortable?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 08/08/2017 at 12:36

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Historically, in hiring, I’ve had the best luck with people that have certain unusual characteristics.

The three top things I look for aren’t even specific skills (although I watch them carefully to see where they can fill a gap, as I can usually fill the remaining gaps, there are things they need to be successful that can’t really be taught):

A realistic assessment of their own abilities.

Willingness and ability to learn (give them answers to things they don’t know and see if they incorporate them when the same topic is mentioned later).

“Grit”, or the ability to fight through a hard problem and solve it, even if they don’t know where to start.

This is followed by general intelligence, personality, and how they get along with team members.

Anyone can learn what I do, but the ability to deal with things that come up and fight through them is what separates success from failure in most things in life.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Gamecat235 08/08/2017 at 12:42

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I feel sorry for you. Chicago-style “pizza” reminds me of something you’d find at a potluck, not pizza. Real pizza from the region where it was invented is very thin and fast-cooked at high temperatures. CA’s gormet pizzas are the closest in the Americas to the real thing, except in cases where you can obtain the real deal (I have been fortunate).

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > WilliamsSW 08/08/2017 at 12:46

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I totally agree on the last point. It has also driven the right wing to be more that way. I still firmly believe that this path is turning a mixture of left-wing positions and many areas of “science” into a budding religion. The people that adhere to it are every bit as disturbing as people that claim his noodliness will smite you for some affront to his precious marinara.

Jason Spears > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 12:54

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I don’t think I can formulate a response to the memo that isn’t also a rambling 10-pager, so I won’t try. I do want to mention the feelings and thoughts that this sort of thing tends to bring up for me, which I will try to sum up. Please understand that this represents an ongoing confusion more than it is a position statement.

1958 : Seperate clubs, gyms, classes, community activities and so on are because of prejudice and unconstitutional discrimination.

2018 : Seperate clubs, gyms, classes, community activities and so on are empowering women and minorities and promoting healthy diversity.

WTF.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Jcarr 08/08/2017 at 12:58

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Well put. I’d like to say I don’t do the same, but I’m pretty sure there are times. Thank you for stating it though as it’s a great point to take to heart and try to avoid this kind of behavior in the future. We all are bound to piss off someone sometime, so no need to be so quick to lambaste someone for their opinions.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Wheelerguy 08/08/2017 at 13:03

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I’d argue that the alt-right is a backlash against what you’re advocating. They were spawned out of the deregulation of media that allowed the left-wing skew to become absolute. It was already overwhelming.

I highly recommend avoiding the slippery slope and ignoring them. Freedom is far preferable to tyranny and worth a little periodic discomfort.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 13:10

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One of my favourite questions is to ask someone, “What is your biggest screw up?” Then I pay close attention to their reaction. It doesn’t even have to be professional, I just like to see if they’re able to admit they made a mistake and were willing to learn from it. Speaks volumes about a person’s personality.

2Fast2Furious: Rotary Powered > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/08/2017 at 13:12

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Diversity quotas are ridiculous, some companies actually suggest you hire a person based on diversity higher than their actually skill. Im not sure how Google does diversity quotas but I would wonder if Google was hiring women just for the hell of it and this guy formed his sexist opinions by seeing women who were not skilled in tech get the job.

Gamecat235 > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 13:12

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Thin crust, light toppinged, pizza just strikes me as fancy crackers. I want to experience the meal, not simply have it be efficient.

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > WilliamsSW 08/08/2017 at 13:28

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

My only complaint is that he didn’t put this on blast on Facebook - he posted it on the company’s internal discussion board. Presumably, that would stay within the company, but someone presumably offended by his post spread it to the media . The guy may be an asshole, but he shared it in good faith. The media backlash wasn’t his fault, so him getting fired on account of it is extremely shitty.

Now, you could say that opinions as apparently controversial as his are shouldn’t be shared publicly, but that reinforces his point that controversial view points are suppressed and those holding them are shamed or punished.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 08/08/2017 at 13:30

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I actually passionately hate the classic interview questions as well. They are too easy to “beat”. I find that taking a walk, giving them a tour, and chatting brings out more of this stuff in a more honest way than the canned questions.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Gamecat235 08/08/2017 at 13:32

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Real pizza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_pizza

It’s not that it’s a cracker (that’s something I think Pizza Hut invented), but it is supposed to be a thinner-crust finger-food.

Gamecat235 > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 13:39

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I’ve had good thin crust (ironically, in, of all places, Chicago, as well as SoCal and in Wales), but I think the thing that I focus on more than a lot of others, is the flavor and texture of the crust itself. So often it’s a flat, thin, overcooked, underflavored piece of what tastes like cardboard (there are certain east coast states where it seems like this is treated as a religion.

By and large, the thing that Chicago Style Pizza has going for it is that when you have that many things going on, in those quantities, everything has to be flavorful and balanced, which is part of why I liked it so much. It seemed like more effort went into making sure the crust, cheese, and balance of toppings, worked in concert. But maybe I just had bad experiences with thin crust joints who couldn’t deal with the concept of how to make good crust.

uofime-2 > Gamecat235 08/08/2017 at 13:54

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good pizza is good, no matter the style!

Good neopolitan has a bubbly and crisp crust.

Good NY style is tighter but still has some air and is crispy

Good Chicago has even more bread still, still crispy but a lighter texture than NY and less bubbly than neopolitan.

they all need to have a good yeasty flavor.

God knows there are crappy examples of all of these, with greasy meats, sauce with no acidity, cheese with no cream and vegetables that have no representative flavors

Gamecat235 > uofime-2 08/08/2017 at 13:58

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Those all sound tasty. Much like everything else, quality has to be first. Point well made.

WilliamsSW > The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) 08/08/2017 at 14:00

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Whoever shared it with the media is also guilty of ‘bringing massively bad PR to his employer’, so I would argue that’s a firable offense, as well.

Having worked for some large companies, if this were merely posted to an internal message board that all could see, it could still result in termination - - if, in the company’s belief, it creates a hostile work environment. The difference there is that none of us would know about it. It happens - frequently.

WilliamsSW > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 14:06

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I think that the extremes on both sides are giving credibility to each other, unfortunately. Each one can point to something the opposite extreme is saying on the other side, and say “See, that’s what these people are like!” —- and the people who lean that way will tend to agree. Particularly if they’re stuck in their own echo chamber, not listening to other viewpoints... :(

uofime-2 > Gamecat235 08/08/2017 at 14:06

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I can see how out of town people get a bad impression of Chicago pizza, so many of “the” Chicago pizza joints have sold out and make some very mediocre pies now:

Lou Malnatis

Gino’s East

Pizzeria Uno

Giordanos

not what they once were (or how I remember them being when I was younger)

Plenty of locals will passionately claim those are still great and I’m wrong.

WilliamsSW > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 14:06

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Also, just to be clear, that was a copy/paste from Honeybunchesofgoats’ original post - -credit where credit is due! :)

Gamecat235 > uofime-2 08/08/2017 at 14:10

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Yeah. I’ve heard that. I was always a fan of My Pie. And once upon a time (90's) both Lou Malnatis and Giordanos made great deep dish Chicago Style Pizza. But... things change.

There were Chicago ex-pats that moved to my hometown in the 80's and 90's and started both hot dog, and pizza joints here, so when I came back from Chicago, I could still find those two constants here, and they haven’t changed (although one of the two pizza places closed).

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 14:10

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Agreed.

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > WilliamsSW 08/08/2017 at 14:20

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That’s fair, but in that case the leaker should be found and fired as well. To not do so would be hypocritical, since leaking internal company discussion to the media to trigger national outrage certainly creates a hostile work environment. The leak, to me at least, is more hostile than knowing that that one guy in another department judges women. It also reinforces the argument that certain viewpoints will be met with outrage, harassment, and suppression - to hold those viewpoints is thoughtcrime and to share them is treason.

WilliamsSW > The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) 08/08/2017 at 14:25

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I agree with you - - the company perspective is always going to be whether or not it hurts the company’s image, and financial future - - and that’s about it. From that angle, it’s easy to argue that the leaker did more damage to Google’s brand than the writer.

I suspect, however, that Google wouldn’t make *that* firing public. Because then there will be a ‘punishing whistleblowers’ backlash, which is also bad for Google. No - presuming they find the person, they’ll fire them and pay them some hush money with a signed confidentiality agreement - and we’ll never know about it, one way or the other.

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > WilliamsSW 08/08/2017 at 15:03

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

See, but I think that’s exactly the problem. It makes the story go away slightly sooner, but the narrative is that Google proved this guy’s point. Making a point that they fired the leaker gives balance to the story *and* restores faith in the internal discussion boards, which is dead and buried now.

WilliamsSW > The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) 08/08/2017 at 15:06

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I’m not arguing that it’s *justified* - just that it is.

I agree with the concept that they should both be publicly fired - but if I view it from Google’s perspective (as I sometimes have to do for my own company), then I would never, ever, publicize firing the leaker.

Wheelerguy > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 08/08/2017 at 22:16

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This makes the problem exceedingly tricky to solve. You want legitimate advocates from the right in every policy, but you want to tone down the fanatical dissent and useless meme noise that has since pervaded and perverted genuine concerns from the right.

How?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Wheelerguy 08/09/2017 at 00:33

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It’s just as bad from the left. They’re all a bunch of lunatics. The thing is that the left won the culture war in many ways, now they act in an oppressive mode, which pushes the right to be just as ridiculously fanatical.

The sad fact is that it’s more likely that the two factions will have a violent war over ideology before they’ll ever be reasonable. I have mixed feelings about which I’d rather stand behind, too, as neither is worthy of my support.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > tpw_rules 08/09/2017 at 21:19

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unrelated to the main topic. Listening to a Sam Harris speech what I find truely terrifying is how many working in this feild assume “we’ll figure it out before it we loose control”. That has been shown time and time again to provide a false sense of security in preventing a problem.

https://www.amazon.com/Inviting-Disaster-Lessons-Edge-Technology/dp/0066620821

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Jcarr 08/09/2017 at 22:08

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I think he dug himself into a shit hole. I do think the “burn him at the stake” of modern social media is increasingly getting used on people with lower and lower standing. Time to update my reading list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Honeybunchesofgoats 08/10/2017 at 00:52

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The guy dug himself into a shit hole for both the content and sending company wide. I think his intent sending it out to everyone shows a bit more than how to start a converstation.

With rapid information we’re entering a new age where people are instantly judged and sentanced without even a rebuttal. i have to pick up this book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_You%27ve_Been_Publicly_Shamed

“Also, as a somewhat old, I really, really hate the extreme direction that people who share my leftist politics have been heading in. I’m all for calling people out publicly and denouncing hateful or nasty views, but there’s been a move towards establishing an orthodoxy on the left for every view and opinion and punishing people for deviating from it. This is made worse by the fact that this orthodoxy doesn’t always seem to have been based on reality, but on social media.” 

I would typically describe myself as a progressive. I think women should be paid the same as a man for the same job and if the allegtions are true about google they should be fines and sued.

But since this article, I’ve seen some wilder and wilder shit pop up on Facebook and in the Kinja-verse with just the thought “are you thinking of the ramifications” or “and then what, what is the end goal”. Though I don’t think the circumstances are the same, I think the polization has gotten so far that each “side” it has begun to fragnment into even more radical positions.

I think the professors point a2 @47min does hold true. there are systematic problems affecting people in society, but i think too much attention is put on the sympton and not on the larger causes of inequalities.