Fooling black box monitoring

"Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell." (oppisitelock) 08/05/2017 at 09:11 • Filed to: None

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Here in the UK, not sure if it occurs elsewhere too, insurers are forcing people to install black boxes that monitor their driving. For some they even impose curfews and tiny mileage limits. It’s expected they’ll become required to even be insured in the near future.

Now since these things usually connect to the car’s OBD port and monitor what the car’s ECU receives, could they be fooled? Theoretically you could connect a mock ECU to the device that feeds it fake signals, does anyone know if someone already managed this?

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 09:15

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A friend had one and we just pulled a very visible fuse to disable it.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 08/05/2017 at 09:16

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I did wonder if you could simply disable it...

Matsayz > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 09:19

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Fuuuuuck that, best move out of the country

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Matsayz 08/05/2017 at 09:23

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Crazy isn’t it? About 300,000 cars have them at the moment, but that number is expected to keep increasing. If they make me fit one maybe I will bugger off elsewhere XD

shop-teacher > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 09:24

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Insurers are offering discounts to encourage the use of them. I switched companies last year, and was offered a 20% discount to install these in our vehicles. I declined.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > shop-teacher 08/05/2017 at 09:31

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It’s expected here that they’ll price non black box policies so high that they wont be affordable anymore.

shop-teacher > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 09:34

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We have so many different companies that I doubt that will happen in the US. I sure hope not anyways!!

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > shop-teacher 08/05/2017 at 09:41

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I hope it’s all doom mongering and it doesn’t get any worse.

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 09:54

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Just buy a pre ODB car

Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 09:54

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Error 505: OBD not found

Orange Exige > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 10:00

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Worst case scenario: you disable it, wreck your car, insurance company does a simple investigation, sees you had disabled it, and refuses to pay out any claim because you voided the terms you agreed to in your 10 page policy so now you’re left with a wrecked car worth nothing and maybe even medical and property damage costs...

I can’t say I have experience with these devices because my insurance company doesn’t have them (anymore) as far as I know and they’re 110% voluntary (and temporary too I believe) in the US... But I’d be willing to bet that if a company did make them mandatory, they wouldn’t forget to add a clause in the policy excluding incidents with the device disabled, just as they (often) don’t insure incidents at race tracks and ride sharing.

Harsh reality unfortunately.

From my perspective, if I was offered the opportunity to have one for a short period of time to potentially decrease my premium, I would totally use it on my commutes where I drive super modestly and unplug it if I wanted to go for a much less common spirited drive (which tbh hasn’t happened in a while anyway...)

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > My X-type is too a real Jaguar 08/05/2017 at 10:09

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I looked into it futher and they have ones that are GPS based and dont need an OBD port :(

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction 08/05/2017 at 10:10

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They apparently have ones that will work with older cars...

crowmolly > My X-type is too a real Jaguar 08/05/2017 at 10:10

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Rustholes-Are-Weight-Reduction > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 10:13

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Dammit! What happened to drive free or die?

shpuker > Orange Exige 08/05/2017 at 10:16

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Solution: Intentionally overload the fuse outside the vehicle, re-install the fuse. Then if you were to crash and they checked it nothing would seem awry.

However I know with the “snapshot” things that Progressive does they actually ping back I believe over a call signal so if it isn’t receiving power they’ll know pretty quickly and ask you WTF is up.

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 10:18

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That stinks the ones in the states I know of are odb only

shop-teacher > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 10:57

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Hopefully!

My bird IS the word > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 11:02

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Get your legislators to do something about it.

I know how stupid that sounds/is. Companies will do anything to fuck their customers if govt will let them.

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > shop-teacher 08/05/2017 at 11:26

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My insurance company offered me a discount to drive with one for x number of days then take it out and mail it back to them. I was like why not I’ll just be super mindful for a month and then enjoy a discount.

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 11:29

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They might check your odometer mileage against GPS though, which is also on the MOT cert

shop-teacher > Phyrxes once again has a wagon! 08/05/2017 at 11:36

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I may have done it if that was the deal, but it wasn’t. They wanted it on all the time.

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > shop-teacher 08/05/2017 at 11:46

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Absolutely, I think the first time they pitched the idea it was all the time and I was like nope not doing that I don’t care what the discount is.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > My X-type is too a real Jaguar 08/05/2017 at 11:50

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I inly knew of OBD ones too but some are even as simple as a phone app.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > My bird IS the word 08/05/2017 at 11:52

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The government have been claiming to look into it for years due to public pressure and nothing has ever come of it.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 08/05/2017 at 11:54

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I always run waaaay over my stated mileage on insurance. It’s not really possible to check by MOT because mileage on those is often inputted wrong and they rarely line up with the insurance period. As in you pass MOT in january and start insurance in feb, you run over. What’s to say you didn’t drive a shit load in that month.

Chinny Raccoon > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 12:19

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I used the Aviva app before I signed up- they wanted a record over 250 miles, so did it on a steady trip up north. That’s the exception unfortunately, most are using the obd boxes.

fintail > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 12:33

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I’m going to have to tailgate closer than normal to read that sticker.

I would have thought these were mandatory in Limeyland for years. Orwell would cry or be pleased, depending on the day.

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 12:43

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I used to have one from esurance and having it on my extra cars really helped my overall premium. I only paid per mile over the standard premium of $26 a month, and it was something like .27 cents a mile. They are connected over the cellular and the company says you have to contact them if you ever need to unplug it. The device does call home regularly and they will cancel your policy if it doesn’t over a certain amount of time. I am an electronics tech by trade and have often thought about how to defeat or fool the device. It could be done with a piggyback device between the ECU and the dongle. The OBD standard is pretty well documented so knowing what to modify shouldn’t be a big deal. I just didn’t know which way I should modify it. Do you just lower the data by a percentage? For example do you lower speed rating by 6% so if you are going 50 it tells the device you are going 47? Do you make an entirely “fake” car and completely lie to the device with a made up driving profile? Is all this worth a couple of bucks? If they do make them mandatory, then I will probably find a way.

Leon711 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 12:46

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Fair comment, lately my insurer always ask what the mileage on the car is when I call.

TheBimmerGuyWhoNowOwnsAChevy > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 13:34

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Welp, I’m glad not to be in the UK, sorry if I come off as rude when I say that

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 08/05/2017 at 13:50

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Ah I usually do mine online, there’s an input for mileage but it isn’t mandatory.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > TheBimmerGuyWhoNowOwnsAChevy 08/05/2017 at 14:08

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At least we don’t have Trump I guess.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition 08/05/2017 at 14:14

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The more I think about it the more complicated it would become. The only way I think would be to separate it from the car’s ECU completely and feed it signals from ideal journeys that add up to your actual mileage. Possible but very complex I imagine. I don’t have any knowledge of how signals are processed by an ECU so I have no idea how it would actually work.

TheBimmerGuyWhoNowOwnsAChevy > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/05/2017 at 15:52

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Still not the worst president we’ve had, he’s still pretty bad, but the popular media (mostly liberal) makes him seem like hitler.

awmaster10 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/19/2017 at 08:47

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Maybe use a device in the OBD and drive like a grandma a couple times. Record that usage data, mirror it back into the insurance device once or twice a day.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > awmaster10 08/19/2017 at 08:55

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Yeah I bet someone could make that work.

awmaster10 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/19/2017 at 08:56

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My bad, didnt realize this was from a while ago but still an interesting topic

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > awmaster10 08/19/2017 at 10:42

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No worries, doesn’t matter how old it is if you have something to say about it.