At what point are cars priced out of their "prospective" market?

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 07/24/2017 at 18:17 • Filed to: Ponycars

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Reading the comments on the FP on the 2018 Mustang power figures, I saw a comment that got me thinking; and I like those comments that get me thinking, so I wanna know what you all think.

Here’s the comment by XYCromersome:

I was reading about how the Ecoboost was going to start in the 27k range, as the base model, and now I’m thinking...are we at the end of the affordable Pony car? With all the features, tech and performance going into even base model American sports cars, are they officially going to be out of the hands of the people they are designed to appeal to? Are they going to build a sports coupe UNDER the Mustang/Camaro now that they are all around 30k which even now is ALOT of money? Are we going to get a Mustang “LX” i.e. motor & safety but NOTHING else?

And ya know, he’s got a point. If it’s true that the Ecoboost is gonna start at $27k, that is a chunk of change presumably with no options. My Ecoboost with Recaros, performance package and enhanced security was at $29k.

The current base GT is at about $33k, and fully loaded, they can get into the $40s easily. So with all this new tech (magneride, digital dash, and all the other new tech coming with the 2018MY), are we gonna see non-top performance model ponycars hit the $50k mark?

Here’s how I’d order a Mustang GT Premium (PP/Recaros/ACC/Other random tech)

The 2018 Camaro isn’t that far off either. Chevy does offer a “stripper model” of sorts in the 1LS which has the 2.0T and a manual for $26k. The 1SS starts at $37,995, and the 2SS starts at $42,995 without options! My spec’d 2SS for example (I would never go fully loaded but again, example), with the options you see already gets up to $51k, and I didn’t even go for all the optional tech!

I like blue

It’s not like they don’t offer affordable ponycars anymore ( Boostang, 2.0T Camaro, Pentastar and arguably 5.7 Challengers/Chargers that can be had for mid $20s -> low/mid $30s ) but once you start getting into options ( and I don’t believe the largest portion are from special order cars like mine ) and my assumption that most dealers typically order fully loaded models as a primary seller.

Here’s a Base RT Challenger that I spec’d for less than even a Base Mustang GT.

Of course, we can think of all the used performance cars and dream machines (Corvettes/ GT500s/ Boss 302s/ ZL1s/ 911s/ ect.) that can be had for that same amount and for those that aren’t picky or against used cars, it’s vast. But we’re not seeing the end of the affordable performance ponycar or affordable ponycar...

We’re seeing the end of the affordable NEW V8 ponycar. If it wasn’t for the fact that these cars can’t be thought of or disassociated with V8s, then it wouldn’t be difficult to say that affordable ponycars still exist and can be had off lots, and it’s not like today’s crop of V6s and 4 cylinders suck. They’re matching the outputs and even more of the regular V8s of the last two decades, and then when you add more gas to the fire, some are even matching V8s from the last 5 years (whether or not it’s reliable is another question/YMMV). So there are plenty of affordable ponycars, they just don’t come with V8s.

And to be fair, these new cars are still offering performance at a lower price than their European contemporaries; whether or not the closing of the price gap is good or bad is another question and a good debate.

And there are plenty of used V8 ponycars that are plenty affordable because depreciation is a car enthusiast’s BFF unlike the 10mm socket. There are options! And even then, these cars will depreciate like the old ones did, eventually.

But you have to wonder if we’re gonna have a repeat of ‘71-73 when Iaccoca said: “The Mustang market never left us. We left it.”

tl;dr (The ponycar isn’t leaving the market it was designed for, the engine type that became synonymous with them is leaving the market)

Levitas > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:24

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Related to this and the Fiesta not coming to NA, think about what is going to happen cars in general. With all the mandated safety equipment requiring radars and cameras and such, it’ll add thousands to a Fiesta/Focus. Who wants a $25k+ base focus/fiesta? Or a decent optioned one in the $30s? And unfortunately the American buyer is continuing to choose the higher spec models, especially in trucks and the like.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Levitas 07/24/2017 at 18:25

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At some point this is all gonna crash like a Mustang at Cars and Coffee, perhaps?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Levitas 07/24/2017 at 18:25

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At some point this is all gonna crash like a Mustang at Cars and Coffee, perhaps?

Decay buys too many beaters > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:33

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I predict the thing that starts the auto loan bubble collapse is gas going back up in price

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Decay buys too many beaters 07/24/2017 at 18:36

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I predict my still getting 28 mpg on the highway and not being hurt by the former and not as bad as the V8 moturs by the latter.

Decay buys too many beaters > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:38

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Oh, the modern muscle cars do pretty ok... I’m talking more about the giant truck dudes who keep rolling their debt into new bigger cars every few years. Once gas goes up and they try to get out from under their shitty loans it’s going to spiral down quickly

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:42

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Regardless of engine type, I question who these cars are aimed at these days. Pony cars used to be about simplicity and speed for a low price, but I think insurance companies killed that since it was mostly young men doing the stupid stuff young men are wont to do that drove rates to unaffordable amounts, and for good reason.

Today’s iterations seem to be about middle-aged guys, like me, trying to relive their youth. But I was never a muscle/pony car kind of guy, so you won’t find me trading in my minivan for one. I do love the sound that the V6 Camaro makes with the optional exhaust system, and even priced one out online. But even though I can afford it I’m not terribly interested in buying one. And that right there is probably what’s going to kill this segment.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:44

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One reason the price goes up is that the poverty screen is gone.

Saracen > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:51

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I disagree...$30k is no longer a lot of money.

Year over year, the average transaction price increases, pretty much keeping in lock step with inflation. This year, it’s just under $34,000.

And in regards to how high you can pump the price up as Mustangs get fancier options...well, it’s just like Porsche. Sure, you can tack $10,000+ in options to the bottom line, but you’re not compelled to, and you don’t need to. A lightly equipped Mustang is still a lot of kit for the coin.

Nick Has an Exocet > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 18:59

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Companies are getting better at getting the most out of a single chassis/interior. Years and years ago we were promised that the future of cars was a skateboard and you just put a different body on it. Frankly, that’s not that radical of an idea. It’s a slow march towards that point.

What you get out of a $26k Camaro in terms of performance is generally what you would expect for that price. For a $45k Camaro, you also get what you would expect (maybe more).

Manufacturing and CAD has come leaps and bounds. Everything is modular these days for a factory. It’s actually awesome. This is how a $45k Camaro can hang with (or spank) an M3 that’s $30k+ more.

Urambo Tauro > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:06

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I’ve retyped this comment about 3 times now trying to figure out what to say about this. Too many thoughts swirling around, I guess. I’ll have to collect my thoughts and make a post out of it sometime.

See, I’m a big believer in brand identity, and the model name of every car brings with it certain expectations. Remember when the Taurus was an affordable midsize family sedan? Now it’s this premium fullsize monster of a car.

And I’m afraid that the Mustang is moving in that direction. I feel like it’s kind of more like a Thunderbird now, but with Mustang body styling and badges.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 07/24/2017 at 19:11

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When you mention simplicity and speed at a low price, this is exactly why I own a base model Ecoboost with no tech extras. It is the epitome of the ponycar: quick and simple without any touch screens or fancy lane assist, adaptive cruise control, or any of those extra nanies. I only got the performance goodies and the enhanced security (proximity sensors, steering wheel lock, and wheel locks) because I didn’t want or need anything else that I couldn’t find in the aftermarket and do myself.

Today’s cars in V8 form are exactly for those that want to relive their youth. The “lesser” engined models that more than match the outputs of the last half-centuries’ cars and then some are for the youths because they’re affordable and cheaper to buy and insure.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Urambo Tauro 07/24/2017 at 19:14

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My dad had a bubble Taurus in that dark purple color and I thought it was the third coolest car in the world (911 and C3 Corvette were first in that order, in my toddler mind).

Mind you, and I haven’t shown you yet, my Mustang isn’t close to Thunderbird, but more along the lines of what the LX would be in modern form to me.

Shankems > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:14

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The cars aren’t being priced out of the market. Average new car transaction price is 35k. That is not a lot of money. I believe what you’re seeing is the people realizing that their paycheck doesn’t get what has been classically mentally associated with “middle class”. If they can’t afford a middle class car, where does that they leave them.......

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Saracen 07/24/2017 at 19:17

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True, and true. However, I rarely see lightly equipped Mustangs on any lots local to me. I couldn’t even find a base model manual Mustang to test drive before mine. Each was loaded and a premium model. Of course you don’t have to get a loaded car, but if loaded cars are all you can find and ordering is the only way to get a cheaper option, unless waiting isn’t an inconvenience I’m not sure many are willing to wait a month like I did, or even longer like my academic adviser even when he ordered two months earlier than me.

Admittedly I’m making a good amount of assumptions, but I believe there are many variables tied into this and I’m barely touching the surface.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 07/24/2017 at 19:17

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I like my poverty screen. :p

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Shankems 07/24/2017 at 19:18

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Another excellent point. Is it possible you could expand on it more please?

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:19

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The natural evolution is that these are going to start competing with the base models of luxury brands.

The Stang can now be cross-shopped with a 428i, etc.

People are more demanding of vehicle ownership now than they were 30 years ago. Ford cannot continue selling a Mustang that has a crap interior and an ox-cart rear suspension. Marketing will always pressure you to put more power in each successive model.

The affordable sports car has mostly been replaced by the affordable sports sedan, which is what people really wanted in the first place.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/24/2017 at 19:29

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What’s an example of a modern day affordable sports sedan?

And you’re not wrong by any means. I think the 428i and Mustang are pretty close after driving them both.

My bird IS the word > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:39

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That’s a lot for the ecoboost mustang, but I have to agree that this seems to be keeping up with inflation.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:42

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WRX

Civic Si

GLI

And hot hatches:

GTI

FoST

etc. These cars are far spunkier than most Porsches from the 1980s, and have all the practicality for everyday use.

promoted by the color red > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:44

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It’s keeping pace with inflation. A 1995 Mustang GT retailed for just a hair under $30,000 2017 dollars and the comparable car four years later sold for close to $31,000. Expensive yes, but what hasn’t climbed up in price?

Also, can we take a minute and discuss how telling it is that the Pentastar’s default option is to lease and not buy? I swear it’s the only car company whose configuration is set to that option. I shouldn’t be surprised given how “Chrysler” and “predatory lending” seem to show up in the same sentence these days...

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/24/2017 at 19:48

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I agree with all but the Civic Si (until now I think? It’s boosted now right?). But another flaw most Jalops and enthusiasts would call out is that they’re all FWD.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:49

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Very good points. My dad grew up in the muscle car era and even had a GTO, whereas I grew up in ‘80s and was big into the water-cooled VW scene, with me driving one of the first Rabbit GTIs. We both like automotive performance, yet we took two different approaches (I’m more about light weight and cornering speeds and less about straight-line speed).

We’ve also both had late-model V6 Mustangs as rental cars, and both found them to be more than sufficiently powerful, unlike the wheezing V6 models of years past. I spent a bit of time in the ‘80s in a friend’s sister’s LX 5.0 notch, and wouldn’t be surprised if the current base model is just as fast, if not faster. It is pretty impressive for the price, making the V8 seem kind of anachronistic and almost superfluous.

I happen to like the relative simplicity of my base-model Mazda (less stuff to break), and yet even though it’s the cheapest model it is probably better equipped than any BMW or Porsche I’ve had over the years, and the 525i came fully-equipped, with the only “option” being the choice of transmission (mine has the 5MT, thankfully).

Is there going to be a suitable retromobile in the future for the old guys that grew up tweaking Acura Integras and DSMs? I suspect that the pony car is going to die in a generation, when old guys around my age quit trying to recapture their glory days. Hell, I drive a minivan and see no reason to change, unless I can get something practical and electric with a 200+ mile range. And then it’ll be our kids that tweak electrics for performance. Hot-rodding will never die, it’ll just morph into something we don’t recognize...

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/24/2017 at 19:50

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I think the big difference between the cars you listed and the Mustang is what the buyers actually want. A Mustang buyer wants the image of something cool and powerful and that’s about it. They don’t want to give up their comfort and tech to get it though. A WRX buyer actually wants something with a bit of go and are willing to give up some features to get it.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 19:53

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What’s happening is that people have started buying Mustangs and such for the image more than they are for the performance. They want something that looks cool and makes cool noises but they also want all the features they could get in other places. Manufacturers realized this and have started putting more tech into these cars and the price is starting to go up accordingly.

B_dol > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:00

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BMW 2 series - RWD, a helluva lot better place to spend time than the Mustang and will give anything short of a slightly optioned GT/GT350 a run for its money on a backroad or track. Barring straight line speed and exhaust sound, it is no contest.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Decay buys too many beaters 07/24/2017 at 20:01

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I have a cousin who upgrades his truck every 3 years. I make more than him and think “how the hell can you afford it?”.

Hmmm On a side thought, $5.00 gas would probably mean I cold justify a tow vehicle.

B_dol > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 07/24/2017 at 20:02

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If you are arguing that Ford or Chevy offers features and interior design superior to Subaru you have not looked inside one lately.

Base ‘Stang

Base WRX

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 07/24/2017 at 20:08

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And time to show my warped sense or car/family history. My dad grew up in the ‘50s-70s and his first car was a ‘52 Ford. He did drag racing and whatever else car enthusiasts did back then. I grew up in the late ‘90s-00s yet still haven’t watched a Fast and Furious movie nor did I really learn about that times car ideals and norms.

So with what I learned from my dad, and the large time gap between our ages (69 and 21), I developed what I believe is a pseudo-’60s/’80s mindset: Buy only as much car as you need to be comfortable, make it yours, and anything other than performance isn’t necessary but do not compromise on everyday usability. My Focus ST was the most basic ST that could be had without a single option and I didn’t want/need anything else I could add without a dealership (tune/exhaust). My Mustang has every creature comfort I need and all the performance I want while being on the edge of what I consider a DD, while making more power and torque than the previous 4.6, getting better fuel economy, and can corner.(exhaust/tune/intercooler/lowering springs/ect.). My ‘944 was as much “luxury” as I needed out of a classic car. I like a simple car that can be modified to a point that I like without ruining it’s everyday use.

In contrast, my dad’s 911 has no AC from the factory because it would encroach on performance. In that sense, I never wanted or need touch screens or any extra features because I thought they were useless. I’ve used them, but they’re not for me.

The ponycars won’t die, they’ll change as they’ve been doing for decades. They may not be recognizeable to all generations, but they still hold sentimental value. Plenty of kids my age still grew up with parents that shared their youth with them, and some shared hotrodding too. Some aspects will change but good old things never die. And if they do, they die very hard.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:12

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No company wants to be he cheap car company. Every one is moving up market, because the used car market is so flooded that most people will buy a 5-10 year old over a brand new simple cheap car.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > B_dol 07/24/2017 at 20:12

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The WRX has the advantage of being based off a reasonably nice compact car while the Mustang is a Ford in some bad ways.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > B_dol 07/24/2017 at 20:13

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I don’t think of my base 2017 Mustang interior being the worst place to be. You must’ve had a worse experience than I’ve had for the last year.

I cannot imagine the 2 Series being that luxurious either, it being the cheapest and “basest” of the current BMW lineup. Even in M240i and M2 form, it is the cheapest of the M-cars and cannot be compared to the M3/M4, and their interiors cannot be compared to an M6; as per the opinion of a good customer and friend of mine who owned a loaded M6 Gran Coupe, Alpina B7, and now a loaded and tuned X5M. My opinion is the same of the 428i I drove recently.

You certainly have to pay to get the best interior.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > B_dol 07/24/2017 at 20:14

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I’m not sure I see where the Mustang or Camaro pails in comparison to the Subaru...I think they’re all relatively nice places to be for the price point.

B_dol > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:22

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The interior may look similar but trust me the quality and feel of materials is vastly different. A Mustang’s interior is not the worst on the planet, no, but it is definitely at the bottom end of cars in it’s price segment.

Last I checked we were discussing a price segment where anything north of a 2 or 3 series need not apply.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:23

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the number of people who buy it for its performance is less than the number buying it for the image. And thus people don’t want to deal with a crap interior, and the brand doesn’t want the stigma of a “mullet mobile” by being bargin bin quality. Buying a pony/muscle car doesn’t come with a rough and loud ride, unless one wants it.

with the cost of a basic fiesta/sonic rising to mid high teens, I don’t think you’re getting screwed for what you pay for.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Levitas 07/24/2017 at 20:24

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i expect more safety stuff in the future. i doubt Ford likes these jokes.

for Michigan > Urambo Tauro 07/24/2017 at 20:26

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I have a half-written draft somewhere explaining how the personal luxury coupe never died, it’s just pretending it’s a pony car now.

Gerry197 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:31

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The average price of a new car is $33,000 plus. A fully loaded Accord is $34,000 or so, similar to a loaded Ecoboost Mustang or base GT.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:34

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I feel like the role of affordable “pony car” is a misnomer. I’m amazed you can still get V8 power for 30ish grand after inflation. I mean hell, I just got a 252 horsepower hot hatch for 21.5k. I bought mustang GT/Camaro Z28 speed from the 90s for about the same price as a low spec Camry. I assure you that these cars cost a lot more than a Camry did in their era.

I think this is just inflation happening. But thanks to model evolutions and new product generations, the inflation happens in jumps rather than gradual climbs.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > B_dol 07/24/2017 at 20:36

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I don’t think their interiors look similar, but I do believe that both are at the bottom of their segment and that any differences in material quality are negligible at most unless you move upmarket.

There may be differences here and there, seating material being the biggest one to me, I wasn’t very impressed with my old roommates M2 like I assumed I’d be. The seats were of better material, but they were the only parts I liked. Just like my Mustang is still a cheap domestic ponycar, his M2 is still a cheap M2 car, so it made sense to me. I didn’t mean to switch to higher priced vehicles for the sake of the price segment comparison, but only to bring up the fact that 2 Series to my knowledge and experience isn’t the best example of a quality interior.

Of course, we’ve had different experiences and resulting opinions so it’s alright to agree to disagree here.

Nibby > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:43

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camry xse

Levitas > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:53

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You’d think; at some point with the way prices/wages are trending, a new car will be entirely out of reach for a significant part of the population.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:55

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people have less and less money to spend of frivalous extras. An 60k salary that 20 years ago put you solidly in the middle class doesn’t stretch as far.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 20:58

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I had one in a loaner. It crashed multiple times in a 3 day span.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Nibby 07/24/2017 at 21:04

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Is that the V6 one?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Levitas 07/24/2017 at 21:05

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That’s what I’ve been thinking could happen in the next decade.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 07/24/2017 at 21:06

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Unfortunate that you’ve had problems with the poverty screen. I’ve not had any problems whatsoever. What model and year was it?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 21:17

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2017 Fusion, 170 miles.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 07/24/2017 at 21:26

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That’s very suckish.

Nibby > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 22:01

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of course

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Decay buys too many beaters 07/24/2017 at 22:01

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Oh that....Yeah that’s gonna be tough. I wonder if diesel will be affect by this?

camaroboy68ss > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 22:14

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I think a big thing why the V8 cars are getting so expensive is that their old perceived market is not what is actually being targeted. They are not looking to sell to the early 20's to early 30's person, but they are aimed at the mid 40's and older group. My reason of thinking behind this is because that younger age group really never grew up in and around big V8 cars ripping it up on the streets as new cars. At best there would be a Z28 or 5.0 but there wasn’t a huge volume of them like in the 60s through 80's when the original muscle cars were just cheap used cars. They grew up in “The Fast and the Furious” era of the tuner section where mainstream was all about civics, wrx, sti, gtr and hot tuners. So this age group usually gravitates to the hot 4 or 6 cylinder cars. I think also there is that old thinking of that if my dad likes it then it cant be cool because he is old. So now today with an exception to a small group of under 30, the main target for your 392 mopars, SS Camaros, and GT mustangs is the group that was a little kid in the 80's and saw the very end of daily driven big v8 cars that can now finally get that, but since he has also grown up in the tech age wants all the latest gadgets.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/24/2017 at 23:13

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It’s nuts. In the 70's my Uncle was able to special order a Trans Am a few years after high school working as a roofer. Nowadays buying a new car is basically a pipe dream on minimum wage, except maybe financing a Mirage.

MyJeepGetsStuckInTheSnow > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/24/2017 at 23:56

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Waiting for the subprime bubble to pop so cars become affordable again. At the very least the used market is going to be looking good with all the repo’s. Sucks that it has to be this way and that someone will have to learn a hard lesson but wow are these loans terms and MSRP’s getting out of control.

CaptDale - is secretly British > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/25/2017 at 18:34

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That would be fine with me. A V8 and the very limited to be able to be considered a car would be cool to me. Like how the muscle cars were. Pull an anti Porsche, strip the fuck out of a GT Mustang or SS Camaro, and then actually charge less! All I want is the state required safety equipment, maybe a radio or just a USB plug in with speakers, manual windows, A/C and heat, manual seats that maybe provide some support, and a manual transmission.

awmaster10 > B_dol 08/19/2017 at 01:03

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http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2016-results-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature

Well as you can see, the m235i, which is still more expensive than a pony car, is significantly slower than a v6(!!!) camaro, and gets slaughtered by a v8. Hell, the m2 which is nowhere near the same price bracket gets wrecked by the v8 camaro. Nice try though.

B_dol > awmaster10 08/19/2017 at 12:22

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LOL. Still pretending that the inside of a Mustang, Camaro or pony car is anywhere near the industry average interior. Beat out by a track pack edition car, all of which are V8s and a 2017 1LE that is either V6 or V8 huh.:. gotta hand it to you keep vomiting out those magazine stats however you see fit.

awmaster10 > B_dol 08/19/2017 at 12:58

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Why does number of cylinders matter if the price is lower for more performance? I was simply showing you that you are wrong about the performance. The pony cars are much faster in a straight line AND around a track. The only advantage is in interior and the 2 series has an average interior for a luxury car at best. And a non 1le will still beat the 235i and m2 no problem...whats your point?

B_dol > awmaster10 08/19/2017 at 13:34

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The price point is identical at low 40s for those cars (GT, 1LE) on your C&D list showing better track performance.

My point that seems lost in all of this is that the BMW 2 platform is oddly left out of the entry to mid range enthusiast car category. Not knocking the performance stats to zero as I am saying ownership extends beyond that. All of these cars sub $45K are generally a persons only ride and not weekend fun car. For that I expect a bit more no? I’d have a 1LE on order today if the aesthetics inside the car met me halfway beyween an American and German (or Asian) style.

Magazine articles aside I challenge you to get out and drive all of these. I have done that and most commenting here have sampled but one (if any!)

awmaster10 > B_dol 08/19/2017 at 14:07

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I also have driven a v6 1le and a 1ss and the 128 and 138 which are “better” than the 2 series in enthusiasts minds. I hardly think people ignore the 2 series, as BMW is one of the #1 enthusiast brands, even though a lot of their current customer base is lease brand whores.

An ATS is an example of something that competes more closely to the 2 series than the camaro and mustang, and it lacks a little in interior but it is still a step up in overall classiness over the pony cars. And it is also great to drive.

B_dol > awmaster10 08/19/2017 at 15:34

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YES the ATS and CTS are great cars too, ugh i need more space and money to enjoy all these cars. Current gen V cars have serious discounts too and I would definitely consider against an M3