"Dru" (therealkennyd)
07/03/2017 at 09:33 • Filed to: None
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"Dru" (therealkennyd)
07/03/2017 at 09:33 • Filed to: None | 1
| 40 |
You may recall I’ve lusted after an e46 ZHP in the past. Or you may not. I finally got in front of one this weekend and drove it. I had figured that by now I had probably hyped it up in my mind and that it wouldn’t live up to my expectations. I was wrong. So wrong.
It was possibly the most balanced car I’ve ever driven. Taking cloverleaf on ramp/off ramps could be done at 70-80 mph without hesitation. Power delivery was smooth and consistent. Everything felt solid, dare I say bank vault solid.
Steering feel. So much steering feel. Hydraulic steering for lyfe.
This particular example had a scant 54,000 miles, and comes quite dearly. Zoom in to see the price.
My previous plan was to find a cheaper one, with higher mileage, that might need a touch of attention. Now seeing a completely sorted example, I’m not so sure.
I have a confuse.
notsomethingstructural
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 09:46 |
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That’s close to M3 prices if you’re spending that. Might be more like 75k miles, but you should at least look and see what’s out there
E90M3
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 09:57 |
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Hydraulic steering for lyfe.
This is why I have 2 E9Xs.
Also, that price is similar to a loaded E9X M-sport.
Roadster Man
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 09:57 |
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Holy shit that’s expensive. You can get 2 E36 M3's in good shape for that much.
BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 09:58 |
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Very strange how people’s opinions and experiences vary. I’ve recently been driving an E46 330i Touring M-Sport so it should be roughly comparable to the ZHP. It’s on 180k miles, so I won’t comment on things like the handling as I expect worn bushes will mean it’s not really comparable.
However, I found the steering a little vague (albeit compared to my manual steering MG F, so possibly not a fair comparison). The worst thing though, and what completely put me off the car, is that the throttle response is utterly diabolical. It’s like they’ve dialled in an inch of slack into the virtual throttle cable. I know it’s fixable with some electronic fettling, but it’s just completely unacceptable for a car that’s supposed to have even an inkling of sporting pretension.
It’s not even a drive-by-wire thing as my Alfa has that an the throttle-response is razor sharp in comparison. Perhaps it’s compounded by the heavy flywheel, but yeah. Not impressed.
Party-vi
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 10:02 |
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They’re fucking nuts for that price. That’s E46 M3 territory to me. Also, I love my E46, minus the broken sunroof shade and peeling A and b pillar trim.
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Party-vi
> BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
07/03/2017 at 10:03 |
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You need to stab the skinny pedal to make these cars do anything. Hesitation with the throttle will make it seem like the pedal is not connected to anything.
WilliamsSW
> BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
07/03/2017 at 10:07 |
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That sounds like something isn’t right there. I’ve got an E46 that I’ve had since new and haven’t experienced anything like that. Granted, mine is old enough that it does have a throttle cable, but it’s drive by wire, too (cable is basically a backup).
RacingShark
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 10:07 |
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LOL 18k? FUCK THAT SHIT. Get an M3.
I’ll sell you my 330Ci with a ZHP diff for $12k. :P
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WilliamsSW
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 10:10 |
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Awesome car, but that’s a lot of $$. Have you driven one without the ZHP package? They’re still great cars (especially with the sport suspension/seats etc). Not as great as a ZHP, maybe, but the price gap may make it worthwhile?
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WilliamsSW
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 10:12 |
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I find the go pedal to be fairly stiff, to your point, but slack seems... wrong.
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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 10:19 |
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I thought that originally. Something must be wrong. People really like these cars. Then I looked into forums and read up on loads of people editing the throttle position maps to sharpen them up, so I think it’s a thing. Perhaps only on later cars (mine’s latter half of ‘02) and I can see how it would help with changing emissions and fuel economy standards, but I still thought it was just a bit naff.
The power is great, don’t get me wrong, but the delivery left me wanting.
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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 10:22 |
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Yeah that’s what it felt like. For the first 1" of travel it feels like it’s not connected to anything, and I don’t much feel like lumpenly stabbing the throttle at any given point when I want to scoot out of a corner. As an ex-karter it just feels wrong not feeding the power in, especially on a relatively powerful RWD car...
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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 10:22 |
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Yeah that’s what it felt like. For the first 1" of travel it feels like it’s not connected to anything, and I don’t much feel like lumpenly stabbing the throttle at any given point when I want to scoot out of a corner. As an ex-karter it just feels wrong not feeding the power in, especially on a relatively powerful RWD car...
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WilliamsSW
> BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
07/03/2017 at 10:23 |
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Oh - I don’t blame you, that would piss me off, too. I’m curious- auto or manual? I find that virtually every torque converter automatic car I drive feels a little bit that way, when compared to my manual E46.
I know my E46 is old enough (‘00 323ic) that the throttle system is different from the later cars, but didn’t think there would be much of a difference in feel.
404 - User No Longer Available
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 10:31 |
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$18k... so I guess the one I saw on Kijiji a while back for $10k CAD was a bargain.
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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 10:43 |
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I hold the proud distinction of never having driven an automatic car in my life ;) unless you count driving up and down the drive in my old Jag XJ40 before it got hit by a tree, or my dad’s Maserati 228. Not on the road at least, but I do know that torque converters make things feel mushy.
I think they must have changed the calibration between my your car and mine. I know there was a tightening of emissions regulations roughly around the ‘02 mark over here, accompanied by a change to an emissions-based road tax rather than a displacement-based one. Perhaps that prompted them to soften the throttle response. It doesn’t feel the same as a torque converter though. With a torque converter, you press the throttle, the engine revs and the acceleration sort of bleeds in as the converter gets going. With this, it literally feels like the top 1" of throttle travel isn’t connected to anything at the other end, so you apply what you think is a little smidge of throttle based on the spring pressure of the pedal and nothing happens at all. Then you go a little bit further and it finally starts to rev a little, but even that doesn’t feel linear compared to throttle position.
tl;dr don’t buy a later E46, buy one of the earlier ones ;)
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Dru
> notsomethingstructural
07/03/2017 at 10:45 |
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You mean see what’s out there for M3's?
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WilliamsSW
> BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
07/03/2017 at 10:48 |
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Nice!! And yuk on the pedal feel. On the flip side, however, those early E46's had the engines from the E36 carried over, so they’re well down on power from the later cars. Mine has the M52B25, with a whopping 168 HP (when new). Silky smooth, of course, but a lot lower than your 330 (and almost exactly half that of an M3). So there are tradeoffs, either way...
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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 10:59 |
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Ah yours is a 323i isn’t it? That would be why. My old E36 325i was 190bhp so I was thinking you were down on power a bit!
That’s also what I thought was odd. Compared to the E36 (which shares engines, gearbox and rear suspension with the E46) the E46 just felt a little, I don’t know, unexciting. A little more weight, a lot more sound deadening, the weird throttle response thing. Hell, even the exhaust note was a bit boring. Sounded good at higher rpm, and a nice little base rumble, but it didn’t really sound much like 230-odd bhp.
Perhaps I haven’t picked the right car to form my opinions on E46s on...
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Dru
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 11:04 |
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Yea I thought they were “at least somewhat high” on a good day.
Given your e46 experience, what would you price it at?
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Dru
> RacingShark
07/03/2017 at 11:05 |
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The consensus seems to be I need to check out an M3. I guess I was hung up on the sedan, but it’s worth a look.
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Dru
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 11:05 |
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I’ve driven an automatic 325. But it’s been a long time ago.
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Dru
> 404 - User No Longer Available
07/03/2017 at 11:06 |
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Depending on color, body type, and mileage, it could have been.
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WilliamsSW
> BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
07/03/2017 at 11:11 |
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Yes, that’s correct - it’s a 323ic, with the 2.5 liter engine. 2000 MY. IIRC, the 2001 MY launched the E46 325i with ~185-190 hp. Both were the base engines in the E46 here in the US.
That E36 325 would have been the top of the line at the time (ex. the M3), and the 318 below it.
The E46 does have more weight, sound deadening, etc. than the E36 - like all cars, the 3 series seems to add weight with every generation. :/ There are certainly plenty of people who like the older generations better - lighter, and more tossable, but the E46 still looks great compared to what they’re doing now. :)
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BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 11:14 |
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Oh absolutely. The E46 is pretty much bare-bones compared with the horrendous overcomplicated lardiness of the latest 3/4-Series.
Oh, and I won’t argue about how it looks. The E46 is a great looking car ;)
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WilliamsSW
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 11:16 |
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If it’s the price that’s bugging you, a stick 330 with the sport package might be a decent substitute (325 auto won’t be) - - but don’t get me wrong, the ZHP is a great car, and should hold its value pretty well, I think.
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404 - User No Longer Available
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 11:19 |
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Think if I remember correctly, just barely over 100k kms. Looks exactly as pictured.
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notsomethingstructural
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 11:19 |
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Yeah, you might not have one around the corner but I’ve been keeping an eye on prices and $20k isn’t out of line for the middle of the market. There’s bound to be good cars in there.
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Party-vi
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 11:22 |
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Tops for me would be $15k, but that’s if everything is perfect. At 54k and over a decade old it should have a new expansion tank, water pump, thermostat, belts, pulleys, etc. All that stuff gets worn out with use and age. My 2002 330Ci was a $9,000 car four years ago with 111k miles on it. It seems like this dealer is putting a low-mileage tax on this thing, which isn’t worth paying if you’re going to drive it every day, IMO. Although, compared to these crazy fuckers $18k is a good deal.
Remember, you’re getting a 4 door with 235hp, and it scoots to 60mph in about 5.6 seconds. For around the same price you can find an F30 328i that will keep up with the ZHP, with updated features. That being said the F30 has awful brakes and terrible steering.
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Party-vi
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 11:24 |
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the pedal itself is fine, but the throttle application for the first 1/4 travel of the pedal is atrocious.
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Party-vi
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 11:24 |
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the pedal itself is fine, but the throttle application for the first 1/4 travel of the pedal is atrocious.
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WilliamsSW
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 11:29 |
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I suppose maybe you can get used to it, but that sounds annoying as hell, and like it would make smooth clutch engagement more difficult.
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Party-vi
> WilliamsSW
07/03/2017 at 11:32 |
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Clutch? Pffttt. I’m stringing along a ZF 5-speed man. Throttle response with the slushbox is abysmal.
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WilliamsSW
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 11:43 |
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Somehow, I’m imagining the throttle response of my dad’s old W116 Mercedes from about 30 years ago...
OKcarburetor
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 12:10 |
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They really are great, but I just couldn’t justify this over the M3. They are almost the same price these days. They’ll both need the rear floor reinforced if you plan on tracking either also.
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RacingShark
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 13:41 |
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The M3 is a much much better car. If you want a sedan, then get a sedan. I wouldn’t pay 3x more for the ZHP vs a normal 330i though. You could get a 330i, drop in an aggressive diff and suspension for much much less than that overpriced ZHP. If you want a ZHP, get a ZHP. Can’t hurt to offer that guy a reasonable amount for the car and see if he bites.
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RacingShark
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 13:47 |
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The ZHP suspension is about 850$ in parts if you have a sport package 330i. You could get the diff ratio + a limited slip for another.. $1500 or so. The hard part would be the engine differences. I haven’t driven a ZHP or seen a Dyno chart, but I can’t imagine there is much difference between a ZHP and normal 330i below 5k RPM. You could buy a 330i and make it better than a ZHP for much cheaper. Still won’t be a ZHP though, if that’s what your focused on.
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RacingShark
> Party-vi
07/03/2017 at 13:51 |
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Yup, the e46 throttle response is pretty bad. My previous car was a 4cyl Honda with a throttle cable. That car would rev up and zing to reline in a quarter the time it takes the e46 realize you pushed the gas pedal.
wbizarre - OEM fetishist
> Dru
07/03/2017 at 22:20 |
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ZHP’s seem to command quite a premium, which doesn’t add up for me. A 330i with Sport Pack is so close, and so much cheaper. The only upgrades on the ZHP are more durable FCABS (the shocks, springs, geometry etc. are identical), a 6th speed (later cars all got the 6-speed), and 10HP. It doesn’t sync up with the thousands of dollars premium these cars command, often creeping into M3 territory.
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Dru
> wbizarre - OEM fetishist
07/04/2017 at 09:12 |
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Yeah I concur. It’s bizarre. Something to do with just being a ZHP commands the price premium.