"mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
10/28/2017 at 11:51 • Filed to: None
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"mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin)
10/28/2017 at 11:51 • Filed to: None | 1
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You have a clearly defined region democratically voting overwhelmingly to be a free people and free state. Why are superpowers coming out in opposition? What am I missing here...
I am quite ignorant of the situation, other than an article or two on the vote and Spain’s reaction, so I truly don’t understand any nuances
victor
> mkbruin, Atlas VP
10/28/2017 at 12:03 |
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all the world all the world superpowers are against it because the idea of it being acceptable threatens territorial integrity for quite a few countries. many countries have territories and minority groups that are vying for Independence of one form or another.
think about think about Tibet, chechnya, Palestine, parts of the South.
in the case of Spain, the central government already allowed quite a bit of autonomy for each region but also has triggers that allow them to overrule each region order to retain the Integrity of the country as a whole
WilliamsSW
> victor
10/28/2017 at 12:05 |
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Nailed it.
Sam
> mkbruin, Atlas VP
10/28/2017 at 12:11 |
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Because that’s not how it works, unfortunately. Its for the same reason the South wasn’t allowed to leave the Union. Their constitution prevents it.
Catalonia would not do as well as they think they would if they achieved independence. They’d need to start providing a ton of services that Spain provides and is able to provide cheaper because they have a lot more buying power. Their economy would seriously suffer.
Nationalism has been a poison (that may or may not even benefit the nationalists) throughout pretty much all of history.
djmt1
> mkbruin, Atlas VP
10/28/2017 at 12:12 |
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Under Spanish law, independence referendums are illegal. This is true for the vast majority of countries in the western world (especially the USA) with the notable exception of the UK (A hangover of disbanding the empire).
There are many separatists movements around Europe (most of them coming out of France and Spain and as a result, they’ve all agreed not to recognise any of them.
Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever
> mkbruin, Atlas VP
10/28/2017 at 12:25 |
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No national government likes secession.
duurtlang
> djmt1
10/28/2017 at 12:26 |
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And because the referendum was illegal, only those supporting independence actually took the time to vote. Those not supporting independence weren’t as likely to participate in an illegal independence referendum. Pro-Spain parties boycotted the referendum.
So, I don’t think it’s fair to say the vast majority of the catelans actually support independence as the result of the illegal referendum isn’t representative of the will of the people.
Tekamul
> mkbruin, Atlas VP
10/28/2017 at 12:31 |
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Imarine if California state legislature votes for independence tomorrow, who would support it?
California would instantly be excluded from every existing trade deal, separate border protections would need to be erected, monitary funds would need to be separated, corporations would have to scramble to change incorporations, it would be a nightmare.
Catalonia’s independence would trigger similar issues. They’re immediately removed from the EU, and all that membership entails.
Such sweeping changes are scary to governments.
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Sam
> duurtlang
10/28/2017 at 12:32 |
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Exactly. Given what I’ve seen online and from the results of the election, it seems like it’s probably only about half (or slightly less) of Catalans that really want to leave.
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djmt1
> duurtlang
10/28/2017 at 12:36 |
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“the will of the people”. It will be too soon if I never hear that phrase again.
Svend
> mkbruin, Atlas VP
10/28/2017 at 12:51 |
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The illegal vote on the 1st of October was so high (92%) for independence because the Catalans that wanted to remain a union with Spain didn’t vote. Just like the other day in the Catalan parliament, only the pro independence ministers voted.
For a vote to count it has to be a legal election.
It’s no different to how many times Florida, West Florida, Texas, California, etc... has proposed leaving the union.
The government doesn’t want the region to have an election on independence, I guess partly out of fear of what the vote will reveal.
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duurtlang
> djmt1
10/28/2017 at 12:53 |
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One uses phrases one hears. With English being only the third language I use in real life...
Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
> victor
10/28/2017 at 13:04 |
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Tied in with that, no leader of any country wants to be That Leader where he/she had a region separate while they were in office.
It’s not a legacy any leader of a country wants.
Canada has gone through a similar thing with Quebec separation efforts. But Canada took, in my view, a more reasoned approach... Quebec could have their referendum, but the Feds would be the ones to draft the question.
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WilliamsSW
> Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
10/28/2017 at 13:48 |
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Canada took a big gamble there, and the vote was pretty close,as I recall.
As it is, many Canadian companies used to be headquartered in Montreal, and they bailed out and headed west because of the referendum. I was dealing with Canadian National and Canadian Pacific back then- they both moved a lot of good jobs out of there.
Kat Callahan
> duurtlang
10/28/2017 at 15:00 |
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I’ve done quite a bit of research on this over the last few weeks, it’s actually about 50/50. The voter turnout was 42%, but many Catalans said they felt scared to vote because of the police presence. General polling puts this at a crapshoot if a genuine election was held, but a probable win for independence because the Rojay government has been very heavy handed with Catalan requests for further autonomy. They’ve pushed more and more people into the independence camp.
So it’s very, very messy, but if Spain respected the wishes of the people, a simple majority probably would vote for independence and it’s Spain’s own fault.
DipodomysDeserti
> Svend
10/28/2017 at 15:01 |
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There’s a long history of separatist movements in Spain. I visit Catalonia quite a bit and find the history fascinating. The Basque region is right next door. They actually had a militant separatist movement led by ETA who didn’t lay down arms until this year. The first time I visited Barcelona they blew up a police captain just outside the city. They’re responsible for killing Franco’s second in command, thus ending the dictatorship. There’s been a ton of indepence flags flying in Barcelona over the past decade or so.
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Kat Callahan
> Sam
10/28/2017 at 15:03 |
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It was under half. It’s upticked to slightly more than half in recent polling because of Rojay’s heavy-handedness. If a new vote were held and Spain promised not to send in national police to violently oppose voters, independence would likely eke out a small majority win.
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Svend
> DipodomysDeserti
10/28/2017 at 15:05 |
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Ye’, the Basque regions ETA was often compared to Northern Ireland’s IRA.