Politics: Jeff Flake is Out

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 10/24/2017 at 17:40 • Filed to: None

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Thoughts?

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Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 17:46

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So he flaked?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 17:48

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He’s not out yet - still has a year plus. He’s just made it so he can speak out and vote as freely as he wants to.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 17:50

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If he’s well respected, then why is his approval rating so low, according to the quote in the article, or is that not for certain? He must really believe that he can’t raise enough money to win, but I’d like to see him have a go anyway. We need dissenting voices in the party.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 17:56

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It’s a fair question. Let’s see how much dissenting he does between now and when he is released.

I am a relatively ardent adherent to a religion that is often considered fairly conservative and the behavior of the POTUS is entirely outside, 100% outside, that framework for me. It’s not about the politics at all. It’s about the hate and the bullying and the divisiveness. I have no stomach for it and whoever tries to run against the guy in a couple of years is going to get punched around quite a bit.

I’d like to see a guy like Flake run for POTUS and peel off a bunch of moderates from each side and maybe even form a third party. I may have expressed this wish to you already. I am probably naïve.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2017 at 17:58

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Yup. And of course the POTUS will start bullying him now, with a bunch of “See? He’s afraid of me.” I don’t have the constitution to stand up to someone like Trump who is a dishonest bully. The man isn’t fit for polite company.

Ash78, voting early and often > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 17:59

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Corker was already one of my favorite senators, now Flake is, too.

fintail > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 18:01

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Even people with fairly garbage history can wake up?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 18:01

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What is it going to take for them to 25th Amendment this asshole?

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 18:02

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I would like to keep around people who won’t be bullied. Someone like me who gets more stubborn the more he’s pressured, but with talent. I don’t mean bullying back, because that’s just going to degenerate the whole situation. I mean people who keep their cool and don’t flinch.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 18:25

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Just like you can’t win at something you never try, you can’t lose at something you never try. He knew with his current approval ratings and the political climate that he had slim chances of winning re-election, so he’s bowing out now. In the process, he chose to take a few jabs at Trump. Not unlike an employee quitting a job in dramatic fashion, and making sure everybody knows how unhappy they were.

The thing that he’s missing about Trump’s “destructive politics” is that the destructive nature of them is completely intentional, and that’s appealing to a large portion of the voter base. The Twitter insults aren’t going away, to the dismay of “liddle’ Bob Corker” or “Wacky Congresswoman Wilson”, or anybody else.

In completely related news, the Dow Jones index was up another 167 points today, to another record high. Tax cuts are coming soon, which should push that higher over time. I’ll take petty 140 character strings of insults in exchange for the prosperity that comes with them any day.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 18:34

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My evaluation of Jeff Flake:

Pro:

He’s one of a (slowly growing) number of Republicans willing to buck Trump.

Con:

He still participates in most of the rest rest of the usual Republican bullshit.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 18:50

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I guess you could say he... Flaked

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/24/2017 at 18:51

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Between Corker and now Flake it’d be very interesting to see where Trump’s tax plans (and basically anything else) goes given how slim the margins already are for the Rs. Especially with Corker being a true deficit hawk I’m not sure Trump has thought his game plan all the way through, especially with his petulant name calling and whatnot.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Ash78, voting early and often 10/24/2017 at 18:52

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It’s not as if they are a couple of floppy-headed Liberals.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 18:53

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Yeah. Change the climate by being different from it. But Trump is attacking people who won’t kiss his but.

Chariotoflove > nermal 10/24/2017 at 18:54

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I don’t think the “Trump Effect” can override everything else. If Flake is a good senator, shouldn’t he be able to win reelection despite the slings and arrows from his president? I mean, there should still be enough money for him from his state’s Republican Party if he’s popular. Now, if he’s not popular, then why isn’t he? And if not then it can’t be just because he went up against Trump. What else are we missing here?

In general, I want plenty of Republicans who are willing to not be cowed by the tweets and aspersions, not because I want to see them brawling with the president across the media outlets. I just want some balance in our policy platform.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > nermal 10/24/2017 at 18:55

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Honest question – how are the tax cuts actually going to play out? Especially with Trump on such bad terms with a legitimate deficit hawk like Corker, McCain with all the budget cuts they’re aiming for Medicaid and Medicare to make up for tax cuts (but McCain does love himself a good tax cut), and now Flake.

The Rs only had 2 vote majority to start with…now with Corker and Flake with no allegiances to Trump, the Rs have got to be getting nervous, right? Trump probably doesn’t even realize because he’s too busy trying to figure out the next jab to type out on twitter tonight.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/24/2017 at 18:55

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My thought as well. Corker, Flake and McCain alone are more than the R majority in the Senate, aren’t they?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 10/24/2017 at 18:57

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But not everyone prospers from those things.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > fintail 10/24/2017 at 18:59

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1. Vague.

2. Subjective.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 19:01

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There’s a fat man on the see-saw and people are jumping from the light end.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 19:13

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The thing I’ve seen with Trump ever since the 90s is that he goes full blast on everything he does or says. There is no in between. So, you have to be ready and not be distracted by that noise. You need to ignore the tweets and look at what he does instead of what he says. It’s like an explosive husband who goes off on a rant, and the calm wife just waits for him to run out of steam and says, “yes, now sit down and have dinner.”

A case in point I bring up because I follow bicycle racing. Back in the 90s, the Tour de Trump started in the east. It was the first premier stage race in the country since the Coors Classic folded in the 80s, and it came about because Trump was willing to fund it. He saw it as a marketing vehicle for his properties, I’m sure. Well, this guy, who had never seemed to have anything to do with cycling went up to the podium and went on and on about how great this race was, how successful, and how it was going to grow over time to go from coast to coast and overshadow the Tour de France. More impractical than building the wall and obvious BS. A few years later, he withdrew sponsorship because it didn’t meet his business needs anymore.

My point is, everyone is still so keyed in to the idea that you closely watch what a politician says. That’s why when the Chairman of the Federal Reserve gives a speech with something in it that suggests he might raise interest rates, the markets freak out the next day. With Trump, you need to forget those rules. Ignore what he says and look to what he does.

fintail > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 19:15

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His history isn’t especially rebellious or embraceable. But, his history today is worth some credit.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 19:15

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That’s one way to put it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 19:31

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I’ve had that idea on my own, at times, believe it or not. I guess I’m enough of a Liberal to expect civility from others.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > fintail 10/24/2017 at 19:33

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I still don’t think you are saying much, but perhaps you didn’t intend to say much, in which case, my bad for misreading your intent.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 19:35

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As I was coming up with the analogy, or metaphor, I thought it might be fairly apt.

nermal > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/24/2017 at 19:42

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Based on this:

https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Documents/Tax-Framework_1pager.pdf

The general idea is to simplify the tax structure, increase the standard deduction and child credit, and remove deductions and loopholes that only benefit the very rich. So, the top pays the same, the lower and middle class pay less.

On top of that, reduce corporate and small business tax, and let businesses write off capital investments faster. This will encourage both business investment and growth, stimulating the economy.

Also, encourage repatriation of foreign profits, and discourage outsourcing. Basically, encourage American companies to invest in America, not in other countries because it’s cheaper there.

I think that the ideas are sound. Getting it passed is another issue. How many Rs will vote against it? How many Ds will vote for it? The budget has already passed, so we’re part way there.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 19:43

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Right. Not everyone prospers, but more people do.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 19:49

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Politicians have taught us that you can be just as brutal and mean while being civil. Just watch the British Parliament for a few minutes.

Spridget > nermal 10/24/2017 at 19:51

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1. I don’t think Trump’s insults and immaturity, however intentional it is, are appealing to that many people. I would say Trump has a solid 30% of the country all of the time; the problem is, when Trump attacks and acts outlandish, he’s often going after people the other 20-30% of voters he needs to win likes. It remains to be seen whether or not Trump can hold his ground against a good challenger (ie not Hillary.)

2. The problem is, the economy is going to come down eventually, and with Trump having close to another eight years in office, plus the decades more his presidency will affect. If the economy does turn to shit, and people look to Trump for leadership, what’s going to happen when they see acting petty and immature? It’s going to undermine all of the positive actions Trump may take to fix the economy. Furthermore, burning bridges with congress is never good when those people are vital to insuring the country reaches its goals.

fintail > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 21:17

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Not saying more than the guy isn’t eminently praiseworthy. He made a nice move today, but history speaks volumes (unless he plans a repentance).

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/24/2017 at 21:20

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Some people still have bizarre hopeful dreams about the effects of trickle down garbage. Maybe repealing the estate tax will help things too, lolz. Often, these are the same people who don’t grasp the idea of lagging indicators, or that a hot stock market isn’t really connected with prosperity. When we have wealth or income distribution similar to 50 years ago, maybe.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 10/24/2017 at 22:13

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That’s fair. But some never do or will (prosper) and many of those make up President Trump’s base. And many do not. The liberal half of my duality is concerned about those people.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 22:20

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I was pondering this today. I am trying hard to wrap my head and my heart around the political situation in an honest and considered way. Some days I feel like I do better than others.

It strikes me that with Trump, it’s ‘Watch what I do and not what I say.’ And with Liberals, it’s the diametrical opposite.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 22:25

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I take plenty of breaks. Many people spend lots of time on the news outlets and blogs to the point that it’s most of what they think about and talk about. Keep it at arm’s length sometimes. I find it helps me stay sane and happy.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > fintail 10/24/2017 at 22:28

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Repent from what? Who are any of us to call another to repentance? What I would like to read from you is what about his history, specifically, you are at odds with. What core value do you hold that Jeff Flake threatens? I don’t feel any particular inclination toward defending the guy, I’m just looking for where you’re coming from. I’d be fair in describing you as fairly liberal, wouldn’t I?

fintail > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/24/2017 at 22:42

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I consider myself to be fiscally moderate, and socially liberal.

He initially supported Cheeto Benito (meaning he is in fact complicit), opposed the DREAM act, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, and there’s more to be found without real effort. Too many facets are on the wrong side of history.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/24/2017 at 23:28

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My daily information diet is WSJ, NYT, Político and Business Insider. The latter two are me aggregators: Político for politics and BI for Pablum. I foreswear any network or cable news entirely. And I ask other people what they think.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > fintail 10/24/2017 at 23:38

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Cheeto Benito? That sounds like a snack.

I’m anti-abortion also, but it’s not my place to tell a woman she can’t or doctors they shouldn’t. My religion is pretty clear that the parents will be answerable at the Great Interview in the Sky, as would be the doctors. And what’s the point of an unjust God? I think religion should inform one’s politics but that it’s inappropriate to use politics to enforce a religious tenet. I think Blacks get an unfair shake at life, Black men in particular. I think people should not be denied natural resources because they were born on the wrong side of a line someone drew on a map. Not enough of personal responsibility is being taught in homes. Society is stronger anytime two people are recognized as legally and lawfully exclusive.

fintail > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/25/2017 at 00:11

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Not a particularly appetizing or healthy snack.

I don’t want politics mixed with religion. Hard to disagree with your ideals, but I don’t know if someone like Flake (or the GOP, or the Dems) is helping them along. That being said, I would like to see him team up with someone like McCain (who also gets a hero’s welcome but doesn’t have the best history) and just bash the shitshow currently at the helm.

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/25/2017 at 01:43

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His replacement could mean real trouble if Bannon has his way.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/25/2017 at 09:12

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Yeah, but I don’t think they’ll vote against something purely out of spite for the President. They’ll just (hopefully) vote for what they earnestly think is best for our country and its citizens, not worried about any political backlash.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > fintail 10/25/2017 at 09:28

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I’d settle for that.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition 10/25/2017 at 09:29

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Trouble for whom? Only replacing a Republican.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/25/2017 at 10:41

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Yup, and I love how the Rs explanation is “well it’s practically impossible to cut taxes for the middle class without giving an even larger tax cut for the 1%. It’s basic math!”. Then when you specificaly point out that well, then why are you RAISING the bottom tax rate, REDUCING the highest tax brackets, AND trying to eliminate the estate tax? Those things right there are purely a choice on your part - and you want to do it. NOT doing those would help make this ore of a tax cut for the poor and middle class, but not for the rich. To which Mnuchin’s response verbatim was “well, that’s a core policy position of ours, so we’re doing it”.

There may be a small population of fiscal conservatives who truly believe this crap will lead to “trickle down” benefits - but I swear that a majority of Trump’s base literally doesn’t understand/realize any of this (or the cuts to Medicare and Medicaid being pushed through with the budget) and are just cheering for “their guy” no matter what poison they’re being fed.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/25/2017 at 10:44

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Agreed, they’re just more likely to do exactly that without being shackled by the concerns of Trump and his base coming after them come re-election time next year.

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/25/2017 at 10:52

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They don’t realize it, or don’t want to admit it. Rs don’t seem to have to work hard at the con, as most of their base doesn’t even have background in even high school level macro or micro theory. Really, it seems most are in the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” mindset, and will buy the promises and platitudes, thinking a golden age for them is just around the corner. The belle epoque is indeed here, but it doesn’t include them, and isn’t intended to. When I see stock market highs being touted as “prosperity”, I cringe audibly. The big contributors get what they pay for, and the flock does what they are told - no matter that it will hurt them down the line.

Many want America to be “great again”, but would never look to tax structure of their beloved postwar era, when it was all milkshakes and segregation. I wonder if they will be tired of winning.

There are times in the past (1789, 1917) when people like Mnuchin and his Marie would end up in hot water, if you know what I mean. The swamp has been re-filled with even slimier slime.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/25/2017 at 11:32

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Yup, we’re both just preaching to the choir here. Especially seeing data about peoples’ actual 401K savings balances its sad that a lot of these individuals see any potential marginal increases in those savings to be worth more than the destruction of public healthcare access, education, etc. that is a given with these cuts - all services that these people overwhelmingly already depend on, or most of us will if we make it to retirement age.

Today I saw an even more ridiculous argument - that us “wealthy” liberals are the real moochers here, fighting to save mortgage tax deductions and state tax write-offs. Yes, because us marginally well off middle class are the real villians here (mind you these are popular deductions that most conservatives agree with, and have managed to walk Trump off that cliff with no democrat intervention)- not all those millionaires (Trump’s family included) salivating at not having to pay estate taxes, or seeing their tax rates decrease.

I keep hearing about these rate reductions for the rich are really just making up for other loopholes that are being closed off - so their net taxation would be the same or higher. I’m yet to see what those loopholes are that will have such an effect. Also yet to see any Trump supporter make the connection that the times they so yearn to go back to had some of the strongest social safety nets and tax rates we’ve ever seen. But no, those things had absolutely nothing to do with how “great” this country was then. It was purely the segregation and lower population of immigrants that made life so great back then I guess.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/25/2017 at 12:15

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We get the Dallas Morning News, which of course has lots of wire reports. If I see anything that interests me further, I can go look for it on the web. I like to triangulate a story with my sources if I have the time because I don’t trust any one source for the full story. Everyone seems biased to some extent.

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/25/2017 at 12:33

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You probably saw the rumor that 401K would be forced into a small cap to help fund this dopey new tax plan - I just about flipped my lid when I read it. If working people haven’t sacrificed enough in the past 40-50 years, that one was amazing. But I think even 45 himself knows better than to try a trick like that, when so many are unable to even put a few percent into retirement.

I won’t get too deep into the mortgage deduction - I don’t support it. I see it as a subsidy for the FIRE industry masquerading as a gift to the working man - it really just enables people to buy more than they can naturally afford, with extra profits going to banks and the housing industry (and who do they usually support?). IMO it also helps create bubbles.

But yeah, I have seen the “liberal” argument against the state write offs too. In a way I see it as the base in the taker states punishing those who help subsidize them. It’s nonsensical. The same people believe a tax on estates of 5MM+ is somehow evil. Dynastic wealth is a problem, not a positive. You know better than to ask for details - you won’t receive them when we can’t even get tax returns. We are all to have blind unquestioning faith that the new swamp knows what it is doing. I always laugh when I see a certain generation crying about social goods and federal spending - when social goods and federal spending made their “great” era so great. That spending wasn’t created by tax breaks for a few.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/25/2017 at 12:45

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Exactly. Triangulate and look for the overlap.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > fintail 10/25/2017 at 14:10

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Yeah, agreed about mortgage deductions. It’s a bad precedence that creates artificial pressure on pricing. But having bought into the system it is also something that would be a tough pill to swallow, to not have it anymore. Perhaps some kind of phased out elimination would be a reasonable plan for the future…but the Rs don’t care. For the wealthy class it means nothing, if a drop in the bucket, so they might as well get rid of it yesterday – who cares what it does to the middle class. But at least for now there seems to be enough backlash from both sides to push it down the road for another day – and hopefully a better thought-out solution (with a better thinking president and congress too) will reveal itself then.

With this administration I feel like there’s so much time and effort being spent discussing horrible ideas that no one should be wasting time on in the first place. All in an effort to distract from the country being robbed blind. You make a good point about tax returns – but see, that’s not even on anybody’s radar anymore. Let alone the crazy amount of spending the administration incurs with the president and his armada spending every minute they can at Trump properties. Just imagine if a democrat (especially Obama) happened to be a billionaire with active business engagements out there – and tried rewriting the tax code while refusing to disclose his own positions and interests going “nah, don’t worry. This is for YOU. It will hurt me and my kind, I promise!”. Because that’s the type of behavior we’ve come to expect from decades of knowing who Donald Trump is as a person right? Selfless service for the nation at his own expense.

The weirdest thing here is that there is absolutely plenty of material for true fiscal conservatives and even the religious conservatives to cite in walking away from Donald Trump. Absolutely anyone but the nationalist movement has good reasons to walk away and have the rest of the population commend them for their position and embrace them to move forward with. But nope, they all see some sliver of hope of personally benefiting in one way or another (while everything else burns to the ground) – and are seemingly fine with that compromise.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 10/25/2017 at 15:59

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I think you’d appreciate this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxDb18nQAakaUE5KMHlvOGlNZVE/view?usp=sharing

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/25/2017 at 16:28

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I did. That was really good, and it kind of makes sense.

Junkrat aka Rick Sanchez: Fury Road Edition > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/25/2017 at 19:28

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http://www.newsweek.com/who-kelli-ward-jeff-flake-arizona-senate-candidate-692088

Minorities and other women?

fintail > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 10/25/2017 at 21:31

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I think the mortgage mess can be dealt with in two ways: a slow phase-out like you mention, starting with new applicants and working backwards. Or giving a similar deduction to renters. I have no belief that the former will ever take place, and I am skeptical about the latter (although it would be fair, as renters pay taxes in their rent).

Distraction is the name of the game for this regime. Make a new tweet, a stupid inflammatory statement, and people forget about your real dangerous bullshit. Cheetolini has dodged tax returns, academic records, and endless financial scrutiny, simply by pointing at something random in the distance and letting his cult bark at it. The left is guilty of playing along, and the press is very guilty and complicit for enabling him, they are as bad as his dirtiest supporters. One thing is for sure, this will be the worst regime in modern history, if not history in total. The Simpsons predicted Lisa was there to clean up the mess left by President Trump - and a mess it will be, indeed.

Your last bit is spot on. He brings out the grifter in all of his disciples, as he’s the king grifter. They all want in on it. The most amusing or saddest part is some who support him the loudest will gain the least, or maybe lose the most. But it’s not them who are the danger, it is the well-spoken literate-appearing ones with wacky groundless claims, like someone who takes the name of a little cat :)