An Honest Question (in 2 parts)

"ImmoralMinority" (araimondo) 10/19/2017 at 21:06 • Filed to: None

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Sunchaser Toby buffer

Scenario#1:

This #metoo thing hit home, because I work in a bad profession for this sort of thing.

I was a partner in a large law firm where one particular department had a problem with partners harassing women. One woman switched departments and ended up working for me, and I found out. I demanded a third party investigation, and was told to get fucked. She quit, and I left soon thereafter, on part because I did not want to be a part of that business culture. I started my own firm so that shit would not happen under my name.

I messaged my former employee privately after I saw her #metoo post on Facebook. It hurt my heart because I should have done more. I sent this:

“Hey, I saw your #metoo post. I am sorry for what happened to you at [REDACTED]. I tried to get them to investigate [PIG #1] but [PIG #2] refused. One of the reasons I left is that I could not tolerate having partners who abused associates. The law is a terrible industry in its treatment of women.”

I regret sending this. It feel hollow, and designed to assuage my guilt for a person I failed to protect.

Scenario #2:

My son is in the marching band at a large high school. My wife volunteers, and I make donations (because I am a misanthrope). I found out through them that there is a 19 year old man volunteering for the band (he is an alum) who is in a dating relationship with a 15 year old girl in the band, and whose mother is president of the band boosters. According to my son the 19 year old and his 15 year old girlfriend sneak off frequently to “make out.” I reported this to the principal. My parent compass says adults involved in school activities should not date the kids.

Did I do right or wrong?

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:16

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As a male, I can’t comment on #1, mostly because I don’t want to inadvertently ‘man’splain’ anything I cannot have experienced since I am not a woman, and I also just don’t even know what to say. Men are pigs.

Scenario #2 is very wrong. At 19 he is legally an adult and should know better, also that is statutory assault? Something with very, very serious legal consequences.

shop-teacher > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:17

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#1, I think so. I don’t have any experience in those matters, but that seems reasonable to me.

#2, DEFINITELY.

AM3R, lost another burner > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:20

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Well yeah it’s pretty weird for a 19 y/o to be dating a 15 year old. I bet her parents will not be happy. And I bet he can and will end up getting into legal trouble.

When I was in high school, I had a friend who was 1 year older because he moved to America and started school late back in elementary school. He was dating a girl a grade below us. In our senior year, he was 19 during the second semester and she was 17. He had a great relationship with her family, until one day they saw him coming into the house with alcohol. They basically said said either break up or we will get you charged with the delinquincy of a minor.

Also, for the first scenario, it does seem a little hollow but you have good intentions. If she responds, follow up with something more heartfelt.

just-a-scratch > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:22

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A 19 y.o. dating a 15 y.o. is dangerous. Too muchpf the emotional power in the relationship and the other has most/all the legal power by way of age of consent issues. Even if all are ok with the situation it can end badly.

I think you did the right thing.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:25

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That 19 yo needs his head checked.

He’s in a position of trust and in my country would be a duty of care, even if the student was 18 it would still be illegal.

Also 15 year old girls are annoying as fuck, who’d want anything to do with them?

CB > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:25

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Scenario #2: you aren’t in the wrong to report that. She’s under sixteen, he’s over eighteen? That is loads of legal trouble.

sony1492 > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:31

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I’m slightly torn because I think it may have not been your business to tell the principal of their relationship.(because relationships should be private matters) But it may have also been your responsibility as an adult to do something about it. It depends on each case, weather the girl was mature, and weather the 19yr old was a POS or not(though assumptions can be made that he is with 80% accuracy, since he’s dating someone that young) 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:35

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#2 is very wrong! This is a get the cops involved kind of thing.

#1 I feel you bro, I’ve been privy to similar situations before, thankfully my employer handled it appropriately.

Chariotoflove > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:45

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1. Hard to say. Normally that email would come off as self serving, as you say, but when people publish personal details to Facebook it’s a bit of a gray area. It also matters how well she knew you. Either way, it came from a good place, so she won’t judge you too harshly I suspect.

2. You did right. Adults, even nominal ones, should not have active romantic relationships with minors under their care. Even were it legal, it would still come under the heading of inappropriate work relationship.

dogisbadob > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:45

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cute doggy in a cool yellow convertible :)

For #1, see how she responds. You did at least make some effort in asking for an investigation. If you genuinely do feel remorseful, that does count. Good luck!

For #2 you are totally right. Adults at school should not be dating the kids.

Quadradeuce > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:50

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So my freshman year college roommate was dating a 15 year old. Her mom would drop her off on campus thinking she was taking an enrichment class or something. I ended up moving out of the dorm because it was too sketchy to have that going on in the bunk above. I don’t blame you at all for blowing the whistle on that.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:50

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Wow yeah, in our union we have come down pretty hard on some pigs always telling females to, “smile cupcake” repeatedly and even ass grabbing. We have a bunch of old guys that made bad decisions in the 80's and can’t really retire so some of them are dicks, although I think our biggest dick is a younger transplant from FL and I want him removed. Alas unions are great for some things and tougher for other things.

The first one is tricky, as you probably know being a lawyer, sometimes you can’t do everything you hope to.

The age difference can seem off these days, I know in the past it wasn’t a big deal but maybe the parents should be aware if they are not.

And as for the drive on Saturday I think it should be ok, I could probably get to the Z, where it’s parked by 10 or 10:30am. It’s right next to the Swiss Garage, 1101 Magnolia Ave, Larkspur, CA 94939. Anyone else in the Bay Area can come. I have some usual routes, all different distances, some fork off depending on what you want. But I think it should be fine, we won’t be very late tomorrow.

functionoverfashion > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:54

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First part seems ok.

Second part, I can tell you as a coach of a high school team I’m not allowed to have volunteer help under the age of 25 for that exact reason ... you did right.

CTSenVy > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:57

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Scenario #2 You did the right thing, 100%! A 19 year old seeing a 15 year old is already bad news, but when he is volunteering at the school and “things” are happening while he’s at the school it needs to stop and he shouldn’t be at that school anymore.

Scenario #1 I really don’t know.  

TheRealBicycleBuck > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 21:59

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#right thing on both counts. (Did I do that right?)

When I would talk to high school students about GIS and mapping, I usually used the sex offence laws to illustrate the power of mapping. I started by telling them the restrictions sex offenders live under. Then we would map the locations of schools and daycare centers and put the minimum distance buffers around them. We would spend a little time looking at their home towns to see where sex offenders could live.

At this point, I would take a moment to talk about what it takes to become a sex offender. Inevitably, at least one of the boys over the age of consent would be dating a younger girl under the age of consent. I’d wrap it up by mapping the published addresses of registered offenders and we would see who wasn’t in compliance.

Good times.

Discerning > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 22:00

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I would ask my fiance, who is well versed in both of these things (and most all things related to sociology, psychology, and human rights), but I likely would be ill equipped to relay anything in a manner that does her response any justice.

I personally think #1 could go either way. It’s hard to say how that would benefit her to know that you tried. Yes, you tried to help, but you failed. At least you did more than most, but did you do enough? I can’t answer that and it’s possible no one has the answer. What happened to her was a messed up situation that puts the blame on the woman and doesn’t hold men accountable for the things they do.

Number 2 is kinda creepy IMO. Did he meet her through his volunteering? What sort of influence could his role with the band have played on her feelings and impression of him. I feel like 15 is too young to be dating someone that old, but I know very little about the psychological effects of something like that. Unfortunately, the school and the law typically know just as little. Sounds like the parents are in the same boat as well. He should know better though and he shouldn’t be taking advantage of someone that young.

Now, I have my own opinions about the #metoo movement. I am somewhat reluctant to share them because they typically aren’t received well by other guys. But they can basically be summed up with: I think men should be sharing and admitting to others times when they stood by or took part in some form of sexual harassment. Of course, that requires people to admit fault for something, which most people are very reluctant to do. I brought this up to friends and many of them even claimed to have never even witnessed anything, which I find very hard to believe knowing what circles they hung out in.

I applaud you for bringing up a moment where you witnessed something like this and for putting yourself out there. More men should do the same.

My only question for you would be: what would you do differently? I know you aren’t in that same position in your career, but if you were, would you go about it differently?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 22:19

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1) “was told to get fucked’ by the boss or woman?

2)

When I was a freshman there was a senior dating a sophmore, who then the next year started dating a girl in my grade for 2 years (19 year old dating 16 year old) When she was a junior he came to dance and everyone was like “wtf are you doing here, and there was a teacher within 10 feet of him the whole night. After we graduated, we were at the mall and saw that he started dating a girl, wh just became a junior 2 grades below us (21/22 dating 16/17). word was quickly spread to people at school, that this guy is a predator.

CaptDale - is secretly British > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 22:19

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Yeah that doesn’t sound right for him to be dating her at all. You should say something.

As for the #metoo thing. I wouldn’t say what you said was hollow, just saying what you needed to say. I think it was a decent gesture to let her know someone was up to bat for her. Especially if she didn’t know before.

Rico > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 10/19/2017 at 22:45

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Reason #96254518 that this creep should be dating someone 18+ is that you don’t have to hope to sneak off from band practice to “make out” without mom catching on.

Lol What a fuckin herb. Starting at like 16 I always preferred chilling with and dating older girls because they had more freedom to go out. This dude is moving backwards, whose mans is this???

When I was 16 the girls my age or younger had to be home mad early or by 9 the latest. But for me at 16 I could chill on weekends until any time as long as I texted Mom dukes. The 18 year old girls could hang out until midnight+ it was a no brainer.

Mercedes Streeter > ImmoralMinority 10/19/2017 at 22:51

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With regards to #1: *Sigh* I’ve come to the realization that there isn’t a part of my life that is free from a seemingly impossible conflict. In the wake of the Harvey Weinstein allegations, I have my own dirty laundry to air.

As many of you know, last year I fought homelessness. I was always just a day just a few dollars from losing everything.

I took on a 3 month contract. It wasn’t an ideal situation, but it would get the bills paid. I ended up loving the place I was at. Everyone loved me and my performance soared above even people who have been there since before I was born. Though, not all was perfect...

My trainer was a guy who I knew ultimately would have a word on if I would get hired at contract-end or not, so I made sure to be on his good side. A month into the contract, he sends me a message complimenting me on my looks. I bit onto the bait. Over the week we conversed about pretty much everything. I began trusting the guy enough to know my deepest secret. I told him “I’m trans”. He said “I know”.

That threw me off, over the potentially hundreds of people I’ve come out to since 2014, none of them replied back with an eerily confident “I know”.

Over the remainder of the contract, his flirtations with me went from compliments, to getting right down to asking me for sex. I had Miss Tesla as my buffer. “Sorry, I can’t, I am in a monogamous relationship with the most beautiful woman in the world!” I hoped he would get the clue and go away. And for a while, just that happened.

I excelled so well that out of over a dozen contractors and hundreds of applicants, I was the only person hired on. It was an immense honor. To me, it was one of the greatest days of my life.

Not too long after this, he resurfaced, this time even more confident. Every time, I tell him no; I have a girlfriend, I’m not cheating on her. Rinse and repeat this conversation.

Enter Spring 2017

He’s now saying that he can get me if he really wanted to. He knows how to pick up any woman and one day he will get me.

Now, he’s a fan of InfoWars, Breitbart, Trump, and so on, so I thought he was just rambling some weird stuff. Nope, he truly thought that he can draw me in like an irresistible magnet. Creeped out by this stuff, I give him a hard no.

Then my breakup happened.

Now without my buffer, he’s gotten more persistent. He messages me every day asking to hang out, he messages me every day about how I shouldn’t hate myself, how I’m lovely and I should love myself, and how I shouldn’t commit suicide. In between those messages of encouragement, are the messages for sex. He’s married with kids, he has no reason to be chasing a trans woman.

I’ve been considering reporting, the messages are getting genuinely weird now. But, I hit a snag. I’m the youngest in my department by some years. I’m the only POC, I’m the only LGBTQ person of any flavour, and he’s been promoted to a position with immense power...He’s basically the boss of my boss. He’s also friends with everyone. I am a little shade of blue in a sea of red. I mean, to give you a sense of how the conservatives at work are, one guy flies a “Don’t Tread On Me” flag at work and reads a lot of Drudge and Breitbart and is proud to be called Deplorable. He’s also very anti-trans, which is why I’m still stealth to all but a few...

I know from experience that fighting some of these things can end one’s career. Cis women have fought lesser situations and have had their lives ruined. What makes me, a little POC trans woman working for a multinational corporation, think that I can weather this storm? If I give him what he wants, I become a cheater twice over (this time dragging kids into it). If I report him, he’s powerful enough that the report may not matter, but instead end up tarnishing me (or worse). And it’s not like I can quit, it’s hard enough to find a job while trans, let alone one equal or better to my current awesome company.

It’s like there’s no winning formula for a woman in any industry.

Maxima Speed > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 10/19/2017 at 23:13

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According to my criminal law class the other day, if it could be proven that they “did the deed”, it could possibly be statutory rape.

PS9 > ImmoralMinority 10/20/2017 at 00:28

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“there is a 19 year old man volunteering for the band (he is an alum) who is in a dating relationship with a 15 year old girl...”

Call the fucking cops.

pip bip - choose Corrour > ImmoralMinority 10/20/2017 at 05:15

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scenario #2 - you did the right thing

scenario #1 - i think you did the right thing.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Mercedes Streeter 10/20/2017 at 06:29

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Cowards only fight those they think they can beat. Given where you have been...cowards should look elsewhere. But in the meantime, know, and express that knowledge in the day to day, that they are cowards.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > ImmoralMinority 10/20/2017 at 06:33

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#1 was inevitable if you have a conscience. It’s late and it’s meaningful to you but not to her but it’s a start.

#2 demonstrates you have a conscience.

S65 > ImmoralMinority 10/20/2017 at 08:30

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Yeah on the second one I’d say you did right, I’d be less weird if she was a senior and he was only a year ahead of her. But yeah good on you for reporting that predatory creep.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > ImmoralMinority 10/20/2017 at 09:47

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Regardless of age, doesnt the whole teacher-student thing also apply here? I mean the age thing is also wrong, but it seems like this is messed up on multiple levels. You’ve done the right thing by reporting it to someone who can do something about it.