Autonomous Tesla Crash

"Flyboy is FAA certified insane" (flyboy396) 07/01/2016 at 08:46 • Filed to: Tesla

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Jalopnik’s coverage of this crash, as well as Alissa Walker’s bullshit blog post still left me without answers.

Was this a case where it would have crashed anyway because the semi pulled out in front? Or could the Tesla have stopped in time if the driver was paying attention?

Either way here’s how I see it: when I’m flying in a Cessna or Piper or whatever and it’s on autopilot, if I’m in visual conditions I still have to keep an eye out the window for traffic and terrain and weather. So, if I’m at 7000feet and I still watch where I’m going, if you’re Mr. Hot Shit for brains in your Tesla you’ve better keep an eye on the road. I don’t exactly want to be t-boned by a 4000lbs brick of lithium with a sack or two of water in it.

cazzyodo > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 08:52

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From my test drive write up of the P90D:

I was terrified. The little wheel and speedometer icons showed next to my speed, signifying the car thought I could use Autopilot mode. Now, I say it “thought” I could. Let me clarify on that statement.

The vehicle will sense your speed, the vehicles around you and your lane positioning. If everything checks out, it can technically take over. However, these icons displayed at a dead stop and in slow traffic...not ideal for autopilot. Autopilot is like an advanced cruise control. I tried the adaptive cruise control, set a speed and safe distance and let the Model S take over the accelerating while I steered. It worked well.

I activated the Autopilot feature at the suggestion of the rep in the back seat...and held onto the wheel. It shuddered slightly as it adjusted to the automatic control.

“You can let go.”

“No...this is weird.”

“Go ahead.”

My hands hovered above the steering wheel and my food was at the ready above the brake. The car maintained a steady 60mph and distance from the Accord ahead of us while we approached a bend in the highway. I braced myself as the lane markers turned to the right and the steering wheel jerked, then adjusted to the turn. By itself.

It was so weird.

The rep apologized for it not being smooth and explained how data is collected from the entire fleet to eventually smooth out the process and make it more seamless.

Then we came to a section of bridge where there were no markers on a turn and we nearly sideswiped a Subaru. I snagged the wheel and brought us back in the lane while the rep apologized profusely.

I understood. It was not that bad, just a little of a drift that nobody was prepared for. We weren’t that close to the Subaru but I can see why people testing autopilot on Youtube complained: they’re idiots.

It is not a full set it and forget it mode. It is exactly what Chad told me: “an advanced cruise control.” It will be refined over time but it’s basically in beta mode right now. Use at your own risk and be conscious of things.

vondon302 > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 08:56

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The Walker article cracked me up. Nothing like doubling down.

Berang > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 08:59

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I think the semi driver is at fault any way one looks at it. But we also know that neither the car, nor the driver put on the brakes. They drove right into it. Why Alissa Walker thinks this proves automation is wonderful, well.

bobbe17 > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 09:00

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For once I actually agreed with Alissa Walker, or at least with the overall point she was going after. The partial semi-autonomous mode is dangerous as it leads to overconfidence in its abilities and disengages the driver from driving. She’s saying autonomous mode should be all or nothing (I personally prefer nothing).

Ash78, voting early and often > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 09:01

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Flyboy, I’m gonna paraphrase my grandfather, who quit a lucrative career in the 1950s to buy a Cessna 140 and learn to fly. He later published over a dozen books on general aviation and was a source of tons of wisdom when I was a kid. Flying is much safer than driving. The plane flies itself, cars do not drive themselves — they require constant input, but most of all, you have to drive as if everyone else is trying to kill you. In an airplane, takeoff and landing are the dangerous parts. When you’re driving, it’s always dangerous. (in short, car autopilots terrify me. But at least pilots are trained when and how to use them, as well as how to handle the transition back to manual control.)

functionoverfashion > cazzyodo 07/01/2016 at 09:03

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I’m confused by Tesla’s statement about the system requiring you to keep your hands on the wheel. It specifically instructs you to take your hands off the wheel, as you described in your test drive.

When I drove one a few weeks ago - on a small back road - I remember thinking, “Wow, this is cool but I would never use it on a road like this with blind corners, intersections, driveways... but the highway? Perfect. Awesome.”

functionoverfashion > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 09:06

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When I drove one a few weeks ago I thought it made a lot of sense for highway driving; long stretches of repetitive, generally predictable circumstances. Busy areas with lots of merging, not so much. But it would potentially allow you to take control for a little while to afford you a distraction or two at appropriate times.

Roads like the one this guy was using are among the most dangerous anyway - uncontrolled access and high speeds. I’m not sure I would have chosen to use the system there.

cazzyodo > functionoverfashion 07/01/2016 at 09:07

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Yeah...that definitely conflicts with my experience. The wheel turns on it’s own because of the electrical steering so if I were holding the wheel still then I would interfere with the autopilot, for sure. Though nobody should be just chilling and playing Risk or doing their taxes or something in the process.

On the highway, I’d rather use their adaptive cruise control. It was very good...I mean...VERY good. The dash even displayed how close you wanted to be through the use of two vehicle images. I was far more impressed with that than the autopilot feature (maybe because I was on edge). I absolutely would not trust it at low speeds or turns because even with PERFECT road markings it had some issues on a curve. That’s a highway curve, too, not a 35mph tight lane turn around a tree.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 09:08

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I think Alissa’s post is actually spot on for a change even if she led it with a clickbait headline and it’s typically dogmatic and anti-fun.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Berang 07/01/2016 at 09:11

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Have you read the article? She makes it a point to stress the way in which cars are going to be connected soon so that even if the Tesla automation missed this truck (lightly colored against a bright white Florida sky - hard to see) the data sharing would give it additional information regarding location.

Berang > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/01/2016 at 09:17

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Yeah, I read that part. But holy shit - if the guy had been paying attention he would’ve hit the brakes and avoided an accident too. You know, with existing technology. Instead he relied on the car, the car failed to see the obstacle, and he died.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Berang 07/01/2016 at 09:20

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Yeah, but I wouldn’t blame Tesla or automation for the guy deciding to put his life in the hands of beta software that’s absolutely not designed to be an autonomous system yet. It’s a driving aid at this point, not a replacement.

Berang > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 07/01/2016 at 09:28

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Walker’s argument is complete red-herring non-sequitur nonsense. A guy died because he wasn’t paying attention, didn’t take control over from the car. Therefore cars shouldn’t allow drivers to have any control over the vehicle! The argument doesn’t make any sense. They’re trying to force a correlation that isn’t there.

functionoverfashion > cazzyodo 07/01/2016 at 09:28

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Interesting, how long ago did you drive one? If they say the system is improving all the time, I’m curious if that is a factor. I drove one 2 weeks ago.

cazzyodo > functionoverfashion 07/01/2016 at 09:31

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According to my “ review ”, mid-November.

Sam > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 09:53

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Apparently this guy had a history of setting autopilot and doing something else without maintaining attention on the road. My guess, though, is that he could have stopped (or at least diminished the blow enough to be less-than-lethal) if he had been watching the road instead.

-this space for rent- > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 10:04

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Don’t turn left across a highway in front of traffic and your likelihood of being T-boned will be drop drastically.

Even with your heads up VFR rules in a Cessna, you can still be victim of another aircraft, like the F16 that collided with a VFR Cessna in SC a while back. Sometimes shit just happens.

Patrick George > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 10:44

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Was this a case where it would have crashed anyway because the semi pulled out in front? Or could the Tesla have stopped in time if the driver was paying attention?

For whatever it’s worth, that’s what we’re all trying to figure out today too.

From what I’ve read of the accident report I think there’s a good chance he still would have been in a crash of some sort had he been driving, paying attention and seen the semi. But plowing full steam into it while apparently watching a movie (!) sure didn’t help his chances.

Nibbles > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/01/2016 at 11:20

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1 fatality in 130,000,000 driven miles. Latest generation software on 5+ years old hardware. No matter how sophisticated you get with your code, you can only do what the hardware is capable of - which, in the Model S’ case, is not that much.

The Model S has a pack of ultrasonic sensors and a front-facing camera. This functions well for adaptive settings but is not robust enough for Level IV automation. Tesla knows this. Google, Volvo, MB as well. LIDAR is the correct way to go but, with current technology, nobody wants an obtrusive spinning soup can on top of their car. There have been mules spotted with smaller, less-obtrusive LIDAR cans installed in mirror housings and such but they’re still not quite there.

The fun part is, LIDAR is on the plate for the Model 3. Tesla is banking on getting the hardware to a reasonable size by the time they start shipping 3s.

Flyboy is FAA certified insane > Patrick George 07/01/2016 at 12:13

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Thanks for the reply Patrick. I was under the same impression that human reaction time wouldn’t have prevented it, only made it not hit at highway speed.

Flyboy is FAA certified insane > Ash78, voting early and often 07/01/2016 at 16:51

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I agree completely.

3ch0 > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/06/2016 at 00:59

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What you said.

I drive one of these daily. And I use the unfortunately named Autopilot every chance I get. I say unfortunately named because of what it has the media saying (self-driving, autonomous, sentient...)

It is not an autonomous car. Period. Much like a 747 with autopilot isn’t an autonomous plane. And the 747 is actually more “autonomous”, as it can land itself in 0 visibility with a high cross-wind (I’ve done it in the zero-hour simulator at British Airways). It was designed decades ago.

The Tesla has advanced driver assistance, that will try and make up for your failings (texting, dozing off, watching a movie). You are the driver, AP is the backup. Keep your hands on the wheel at all times, like it tells you to regularly if you don’t.

In simpler terms, its traffic-aware cruise control is complemented by the most advanced lane keeping and emergency braking systems in the world. Check out MobileEye’s YouTube videos to understand how they work. It is their tech. It is awesome stuff, but cannot replace you.

3ch0 > Ash78, voting early and often 07/06/2016 at 01:04

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I agree. Tesla’s autopilot is very easy to disable accidentally, and the cues are not always very audible or visible. More should be done on that front. This means that drivers uninformed on exactly what happens in that transition can be caught off guard if they are not paying attention. Which, as we all know, is a common occurrence on the road.

Am still amazed that they have been able to ship this tech, in America no-less.