Who's to blame for Cadillac's not selling?

"LJ909" (lj909) 04/29/2016 at 11:17 • Filed to: None

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According to a post on the site 24/7 Wall Street, Cadillac’s are on the list of cars that Americans don’t want. The CTS, And ATS have some of the longest turn days in the industry. The ATS sits at 153-3 days and the CTS is at 141.3 with both posting 37.4% sale declines from 2014-2015. This doesn’t spell a good sign for the recently released CT6. So who’s really to blame: dealers, GM, or the customers? Luxury buyers !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

bob and john > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 11:23

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from my understanding, its dealers. to many of them, and they are all being GM dealers. NOT luxury mark dealers. There is nothing wrong with the cars. The cars are GREAT. but the customer service and ‘exclusivity’ isnt there.

LJ909 > bob and john 04/29/2016 at 11:30

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That’s what I’ve been saying. It has to start with a turnaround at the dealers service wise. Walking into a Cadillac dealership is no different than going to a Chevy dealer, and that’s not a good thing. Look at Toyota and Lexus. Damn near night and day.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > bob and john 04/29/2016 at 11:31

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This is “Luxury Marketing” 101 and most Cadillac dealers suck at it.

boredalways > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 11:37

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Would GM’s “unearned”* and aggressive MSRP before dealer incentives be a secondary contributing factor?

*generally speaking, perception is reality

Ash78, voting early and often > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 11:44

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It’s going to take a long time. Patience will be key, regardless of what marketing efforts or dealer revamping they do. Basically until all the “Old Man Caddies” are rusting in a junkyard. Buick is the only one to pull off that kind of turnaround, but that was driven by MASSIVE adoption in China as proof that their youthful concepts would work. Even among the car people I know, it’s still just the Old Man Car Company with the occasional CTS-V that few people actually buy. I don’t think a single person I know could tell you what an ATS is.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 11:44

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Being an ad guy, their advertising and marketing sucks.

I don’t know who’s worse. The corporate Marketing team or the Advertising Agency.

And if you’re not in one of the two you’d never know which side is screwing that combo up. The Ad Agency may not be able to make good work. The Marketing Team might be cutting their legs off not allowing them to make good work.

Either way - it’s failing. They have great cars, they look great, and there’s not butts in seats. IMO that falls directly on the Marketing/Advertising combo.

duurtlang > boredalways 04/29/2016 at 11:45

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From what I’ve heard they’re priced similar to the Germans. If that’s true it’s the reason they’re not selling. A new* contender should either seriously undercut the established brands or offer a lot more quality for the same amount of money. Cadillac doesn’t do either, and thus doesn’t sell.

*new in the sense of having an actually competitive product in this class

Battery Tender Unnecessary > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 11:47

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Considering the newest and largest Cadillac dealer I’ve been to consisted of a Chevrolet, Buick, and Cadillac dealer in one single building separated by partitions it’s not hard to see why. The same dealer had stand alone Porsche and Mercedes Dealerships across the street. It’s hard to have a “exclusive, luxury car buying experience” when you drive up, get out, get approached by a salesman, ask about an Escalade, find out he’s with the Chevy partition and that he wants to talk you into a Tahoe instead...

Not to mention when I tried to inquire about a CTS-V a month or two after the new one was unveiled, the only guy I could find (a different dealer) didn’t want to get up from his desk and when I asked if they were taking deposits on the new CTS-V he just shrugged and said, “They stopped making CTS-V’s months ago.”

Ash78, voting early and often > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 11:54

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Props for making “not selling” into a possessive of Cadillac. That gerund thing has become one of my most obscure grammar annoyances in recent years. Honorable mention for "This is him" when asking for someone on the phone.

LJ909 > Ash78, voting early and often 04/29/2016 at 11:57

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Ive experienced that too. I’ve even talked to some car people that didn’t know Cadillac built a 3 Series competitor. That’s really sad. But a turnaround might take so long that it might be too late.

LJ909 > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 04/29/2016 at 11:58

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That’s the problem. They really don’t have any advertising outside a few print ads I’ve seen.

Ash78, voting early and often > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:00

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I honestly think it doesn’t help that the CTS started out as basically a 3-series competitor, but then moved slightly larger and upmarket to make room for ATS. Yes, I know everyone does that, but when you look at the competition and their longevity, the CTS is still the New Kid on the Block. The ATS is an infant.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > bob and john 04/29/2016 at 12:00

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Yeah, I went and looked at the ATS and the dealership wasn't as nice as the VW dealership or the Ford. "We used to sell Hummers here" the salesman told me. If I'm buying an ATS, don't talk to me about Hummers

LJ909 > Battery Tender Unnecessary 04/29/2016 at 12:00

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Wow that’s sad and I’ve had similar experiences. Could be something to do with GM forcing franchises to group the dealers together. I don’t think there are any stand alone Cadillac dealerships. I’ve seen one in the LA area but it closed and moved down the street to be with a Buick dealership.

Ross Kraz > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:01

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jimz > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:01

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I’d say it’s the market itself. The people old enough to be in Cadillac’s potential customer pool are ones who remember Cadillac as selling nothing but floaty land barges, and would rather buy a Mercedes. Younger ones are in BMW and Audi’s pockets.

This is why anytime anyone on the internet says that Ford should build a Lincoln “BMW-fighter” I laugh.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:02

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Well, in their defense are you the target market for a new Cadillac? Because if not, if you’re seeing their ads then they aren’t targeted very well. If you’re not in their target and you aren’t seeing them it might just be that you aren’t seeing them for a reason.

I would agree though that you do not see much of it, either they’re hyper focused with their media buys or they just aren’t doing it at all.

They really need to step up.

LJ909 > Ash78, voting early and often 04/29/2016 at 12:03

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The ATS is a few weeks old really. Its only been on the market what, 2 years? And its dead in the water. I would pick one up though. They are dropping like rocks used. Especially the turbo 4 models.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:04

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I like the Cadillacs but they don’t have as much gravitas as the competition. If you have to pick between an ATS or a Jaguar XE, it's not a hard sell for the Jaguar. They have to be cheaper to get people in the door.

LJ909 > jimz 04/29/2016 at 12:06

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The way things are looking though, Lincoln might have a better chance of survival than Cadillac. Cadillac has the right idea, but it doesn’t seem to be working. Lincoln has the wrong idea (FWD cars that are basically Fords) but I’m sure they sell more the Cadillac. And I would take the new Continental over a CT6.

Arrivederci > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:08

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Well, I would happily rock either an ATS or CTS as a daily, but wouldn’t be willing to pay as much as the equivalent 328/A4/C300 or 528/A6/E350. So, there’s the problem. New ones are almost as much, unless incentivized, but for equal money, I’m spending it elsewhere. This is also killing their resale values, so picking up a CPO or lightly-used one isn’t a bad idea. Problem is, that still requires someone to buy it new.

In the case of a rather loaded CTS, why would I pay $60k for a new one when in a year or two I can find the same car for $35-40k?

LJ909 > Arrivederci 04/29/2016 at 12:22

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Yea their own prices create a sales conundrum for them. One one hand new, better money can be spent elsewhere, but then they are a steal used. But then used even better money can be spent elsewhere. Not to mention the parts bin sharing that’s evident in some models. I’ve hear people say all automakers parts bin share. A M3 shares the same buttons as a lowly 320 blah blah. But the thing is, that 320 is still a BMW. GM parts bin shares across brands not just models. So similar switch gear will probably be found in a GMC or Buick. Not a good thing.

Land_Yacht_225 > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:27

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I’ve said it before, it’s Cadillac’s own fault. Well, GM actually. Handing it over to the yuppie, nouveau riche crowd, headed by that tasteless double-talking corporate loser they poached from Infiniti, a brand which doesn’t have, never had, and never will have any status or class, De Nysschen.

At least old Cadillac you could count on as a standby. It was consistent. It was comfortable. It was establishment. And near the end, the 2000-05 DeVille was as advanced as any luxury sedan made in America or Japan at the time. It had a HUD, night vision, GPS, heated/cooled seats, LED tail lights too. If they’d figured out radar cruise control, I never would have bought my Mercedes.

But then they decided they customer base was dying off, which was true to an extent. Old people do tend to die. But all our parents, the baby boomers, who grew up with Cadillac, Lincoln, and Imperial being the status symbols (remember, BMW and Mercedes weren’t “in” until the 1980s) are retiring, or starting to retire. If anything, their classic customer base is about to explode. And in a short sighted, knee jerk and poorly researched reaction to 3 months of falling sales, they threw the entire brand out with the leftover sushi from the marketing meeting. (get it? Young people, who they’ve tried to design the brand for, eat sushi). And it’s killed them. Young people only see their grandpa’s ‘84 Sedan DeVille, and their (our) parents think the ride is too harsh and the’re too low slung to get in and out of. The CT6 is sort of getting back to offering something to the original crowd, but it may be too late. And as someone who drives at least 10 DeVilles/Sevilles whenever I’m shopping for a new car; because the Northstar was one of the greatest engines ever, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise, the only CT6 I would have is the corporate 3.6 powered one. And that is an awful, rev fighting, lump of an engine. But Cadillac puts it in everything! So they’ve got their version of ecoboost engines and a CTS with the Z06 V8 in it. Who cares! Those aren’t what sell. The vast majority of the cars sold off the lot are miserable American V6 powered euro-knockoffs. They don’t realistically measure up to anything else in the class. Which is exactly why young people actively steer their parents away from them. Get a BMW, get an Audi, get a Mercedes. They only make the Escalade, begrudgingly, because rappers still sing about them.

LJ909 > Land_Yacht_225 04/29/2016 at 12:33

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Hit the nail on the head. Corporate engines arent whats going to do it. The 3.6 is used in everything and thats not a good thing. But everyone knows the Europeans and and Lexus are where its at. Cadillac is damaged as a brand because of its perception the last 30 or so years.

Land_Yacht_225 > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:41

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It’s really only the 1980s that destroyed the brand. The Northstar made it’s debut in the 1990s and was amazing, and they were actively developing tech by the new millennium. Do you know what car the MagneRide suspension that GM ended up licencing to Ferrari and everybody sings the praises of in the CTS-V made it’s debut in?

The 2002 Cadillac Seville STS.

Justin Hughes > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 12:50

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When most people think of Cadillac, they still think of those unreliable, loaded up, rebadged GM POS cars of the 80s and 90s. That is very much NOT the case now, but they’re still fighting against their old image as they struggle to reinvent themselves.

Interesting side note. Everyone keeps talking about how they’re trying to compete with BMW, Mercedes, and such. I talked with the Cadillac V-series rep a bit at NYIAS. He made an interesting point. For the most part, the other companies don’t have other brands, the way GM does, and are forced to diversify and make many different cars - for example, BMW’s 4-door hatch version of a 2-door version of a 4-door car. That means Cadillac can focus more sharply on the types of cars they want to make instead of trying to satisfy everyone. They also don’t have to match or beat the Germans. They offer a modern but uniquely American take on the luxury sport sedan. (Lincoln. on the other hand, offers an updated but more classic take on the traditional American luxury car.)

But the hard part, once again, is convincing the general public to give them a chance and to take them seriously. Modern Cadillacs are genuinely good cars, but if people don’t want them, they’re doomed.

LJ909 > Justin Hughes 04/29/2016 at 13:01

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You have a good point about them being able to focus on cars they want to make. But at the same time I think the explanation the rep gave you is a cop out for someone who knows that they are failing. The other brands like BMW may diversify with models that we think are dumb, like the 3 Series GT and 4 Series Grand Coupe, and maybe even less practical like the SUV coupes. But they will sell just off of the customer service, driving experience and brand cache. Meanwhile Cadillac cant even move the cars that make sense from a traditional buyer standpoint because of executives that dont seem to get it and dealerships that are horrible.

Sweet Trav > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 13:05

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Cadillac suffers from three things.

1. A lack of a market identity. Their product line up directly mimics their competition - BMW/Mercedes/Audi. They are great cars, but for the same, or similar money why buy a Cadillac when you can get the “Real” luxury car? The previous CTS and STS sold because you were getting a car that was size and feature wise, somewhere between the 3 and 5 series, or 5 and 7 series.

2. Their pricing is horrendous. When I was pricing my SHO I also looked at the ATS. My SHO was stickered at roughly 45k, the comparably optioned ATS? 52k. For a smaller car with a less powerful engine. Again, you’re not going to poach BMW sales, by being just as pricey as BMW.

3. The leadership (De Nysschen) used to sell knockoff BMW’s (Infinity and Audi) they are simply trying to emulate the competition, instead of innovating. Their ads have no substance, style, flash, or attitude. Cadillac needs define it’s own vision of luxury , because if it is the same as BMW, why not just buy a BMW instead of a cheaply made (but not siginificantly cheaper) American knock off?

Shift24 > Land_Yacht_225 04/29/2016 at 13:09

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The Northstar was a troubled engine, decent concept and innovation but poor engineering lead to weak head bolts which lead to many having head gasket problems before 100k.

Justin Hughes > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 13:49

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I agree. Everyone was buying BMWs back when Cadillacs were horrible. They’re trying to redefine the brand, and they’re on the right track, but I don’t think they’re doing enough to work toward that. If they were, their cars would sell better.

Alex Zapata > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 14:26

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Well in my country an ATS 2.0T is about as expensive as a 340i base, I don’t know how it is for you, but I would only consider a Cadillac over a Mercedes, BMW or Audi if it was MUCH cheaper...

LJ909 > Sweet Trav 04/29/2016 at 14:35

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I agree with all 3. I have been especially critical of De Nysschen, who I think is unsuccessfully trying to bring what he did at Infiniti and Audi over to Cadillac. If we wanted BMW or Audi, we would go there. It doesnt make sense to copy cat naming schemes and product line ups. They arent going to get ahead by being similarly priced or having a similar product lineup.

LJ909 > Alex Zapata 04/29/2016 at 15:07

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Its the same here. They are comparable. In a lot of cases, you get lower content with the Cadillac for about the same or a little more. It doesn’t help that when you get the base trims with Cadillac, they remind you that you got the base trims by (in my opinion) heavily cheapening them out compared to the other models. The new XT5 is proof of it, its really cheap interior wise unless you get the Platinum trim. In the other cars its in the same way, the ATS being one of them. To me they are a much better value used.

LJ909 > Shift24 04/29/2016 at 15:08

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And terribly expensive to fix.

Alex Zapata > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 15:31

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Yeah they absolutely tank in the used market.

I also think that they aren’t quite well-built enough, so when it comes to several miles on them, they tend to be very very awful and rattly and not age well at all, while an equivalent Mercedes or Audi will still look great, whilst maybe a tad dated.

Steve in Manhattan > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 16:29

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I think it’s a combination of a few things. The badge was damaged during the 70s and 80s and has yet to fully recover - it still stinks of retirees and shit build quality. They are, from what I’ve seen, priced like a German car, or a Lexus, and the public won’t pay. If I were looking for a high-end sedan I’m not sure I’d even visit a Cadillac dealership. And I’m squarely in the group they market to ....

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > Battery Tender Unnecessary 04/29/2016 at 17:19

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Hard to feel the luxury when the salesman doesn't even know about an upcoming model

briannutter1 > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 18:30

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Here, hold my beer...I got this. Think back.....When Caddy was coming on hard was the 2nd Gen CTS-V kicking ass on the ‘ring, publishing numbers beating the M5. The ad agency of the time was laying down Zepplin tracks with good looking Silver haired guys taking out 30 year old sophisticated Brunettes in little black dresses. No apologies.

Dy Nesschen doesn’t understand what it means to be an American. To paraphrase him “We have plenty of hot rodders on the team, what we really need are people that understand the wants of people who value luxury and aren’t smart enough to remember how a vehicle stacks up in the eyes of others if it doesn’t start with 2,3,4,5,6,7,8”. Guess what Johan, the typical American business owner is not ostentatious and they aren’t stupid. Plenty of sales to be made here and it’s not necessary to dilute yourselves by pretending to be European.....that’s just pathetic.

What made the comeback for Caddy was the typical 40+year old guys like myself who started off worshiping the GNX, 5.0, Iroc, C4 then going through the E36/Sport Compact/LS1 4th Gen Camaro/C5Z phase...and finally ready to relax a bit with a 556 horsepower 6 speed wagon as long as it kicks German ass at the drag strip/’Ring/Track day.

BMW/Mercedes didn’t give two shits about Caddy until they got beat on their home turf...now they’re paying attention as they can only rest on your “ultimate driving machine” laurels for so long.

Do I really care if I have a S.U.H.C engine under the hood as long as it kick’s ass? No.... We just want to drive something we can take pride in-in our own way. The vehicles are still great, but Lutz left and you’re witnessing the result of a brand loosing it’s mojo.

LJ909 > briannutter1 04/29/2016 at 18:54

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I wish I could give you more stars.

briannutter1 > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 19:00

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Your reply is enough. Thank you.

ranwhenparked > LJ909 04/29/2016 at 23:32

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GM, for decades of mediocrity, then trying to move too far upmarket too fast, instead of pacing themselves.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > briannutter1 04/29/2016 at 23:40

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Your first paragraph is it, exactly what they should be doing. They should be blasting Zeppelin, AC/DC, Queen and talking about how great the cars are at being awesome.

All great luxury car makers got there by being exceptional at some point, Cadillac needs to do that too.

NJAnon > LJ909 04/30/2016 at 00:12

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I’m not saying numbers don’t lie (I’ll look at the road & track & wall street sites) but they aren’t always a perfect barometer. As for dealerships, well thats subjective as one dealer right around the corner will have awesome saleswomen or men.

I see the Cadillacs where I live. Does some of their pricing affect new buyers? Probably but that can be said of any luxury brand. And consider this is luxury car world we’re talking about; there is a chance that 1 out of 5 people will “fall to peer pressure” and “word of mouth from country club friends”. just saying

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > LJ909 04/30/2016 at 01:51

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I think Lincoln is just going to pull an Acura and do “Good” for the next decade.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Battery Tender Unnecessary 04/30/2016 at 02:11

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Yeap. Went to look at a ATS the commercials convinced me I needed magnetic shocks and a HUD. went to dealer “when will you have the 2.0T in a manual?” I don’t know 2-3 months, how about taking this sweet V-6 for test ride? “ok” (returns from test drive) so whens the 2.0t arrive?

then it took over 10 minutes to find out what the expected lease rates were.