What I Just Learned About Gasoline, And How Did I Never Know About This Before??

"reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear." (reverberocket) 02/10/2016 at 09:40 • Filed to: None

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There are a few locations that are very near to me where I can purchase gas. Most are gas/convenience outlets, but there are still a few that have actual service bays and perform maintenance and repairs. The station that I had hoped I’d developed a relationship with for service over the last 5-7 years had let me down one too many times recently, so I found myself looking to establish a new relationship with the other ‘full-service’ Liberty-branded station nearby. As I stood by while filling up with gas the other day, I realized that the pump was missing something that I thought was ubiquitous; the sticker that describes the ethanol content. I then looked at all of the printed materials and posters up around the station, and didn’t see anything referencing the quality of the gasoline. This got me curious, so I decided to do some research when I got home. The entirety of the information found at the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! was for the benefit of the owner/franchisee, and not a retail customer like me. I started to get a bit concerned, so I poised my question regarding product quality to the Liberty Petroleum Facebook page, and so far have not received a response.

Searching online for some source of information regarding gasoline quality, I stumbled upon a term I’d never heard before; Top Tier Gasoline .
WTF is Top Tier Gasoline? I had to look it up, and instead of me trying to clumsily explain, I’ll just quote this clear explanation from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! :

“...Top tier gasoline may help reduce the build-up of ‘gunk’ in the engine which comes from impurities in gas. These are broken down by adding high levels of detergents to the fuel. Top tier is also free of metallic additives, improving its quality. It is usually slightly more expensive than regular fuel, but only by a few cents per gallon. It was developed to protect the engines of cars with fuel injection technology. During the 80s and early 90s car manufacturers were reporting that the engines of cars with direct fuel injection were getting clogged with gunky build-ups, originating from impurities in gasoline. As a result, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) started regulating minimum levels of detergent that need to be present in gas to break down impurities, with the idea of improving fuel quality. Unfortunately, some suppliers reduced the amount of detergent in their gasoline to the specified minimum, reducing the overall quality of fuel available instead of increasing it. In the early nineties some of the world’s biggest auto manufacturers including Audi, BMW, General Motors, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, Honda and Toyota set higher benchmarks for top tier fuel. In order to brand their fuel as top tier gas, retailers must ensure that is has two to three times more detergent than the EPA minimum, which combats gunk build-up, and is free of metallic impurities which damage vehicle’s emission-control systems...”

So apparently, my perception that premium gas from any supplier was higher in detergents and additives was not necessarily true. Not only are all gasolines not the same in the obvious ways, but there’s this whole gas quality paradigm I was completely ignorant to. It also makes me wonder if there was any cause/effect because the major gasoline retailer that I had used near exclusively for my ‘06 MDX is NOT on !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and at 105K miles I ended up needing both cylinder heads overhauled/rebuilt, even though I use synthetic oil exclusively and change it every 5-7K miles. And through that experience and throughout my ownership of my Acura, no one has ever broached the subject of gas quality, and specifically the whole Top Tier concept, with me.

Now I’m not sure about any claims for increased performance, and surely the old adage “results may vary” applies, but it’s nice to have the knowledge and be able to make an informed choice.

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 09:50

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The confusing thing about this list is that I have filled my car with gas from Costco and it destroyed my mileage (same commute, nothing changed) as compared to gas from Shell or Exxon.

That being said, good to know list

Rico > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 02/10/2016 at 10:00

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Crazy as Costco gas is actually supposed to be one of the best. Shell works best for my car, BP drops the mileage way down even though they are both top tier.

wiffleballtony > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 10:07

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I usually fill up at a QT or Valero, I’ve seen those Top Tier stickers but never bothered to dig deeper.

daender > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 10:12

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I typically throw in Shell or QT premium gas for the Miata, and they give me the best results in terms of gas economy and performance.

Mr Parker > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 10:12

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Once I filled my car at a small town station because it was cheaper. Then my car felt sluggish. Been filling up at Shell or BP since that. My 335i couldn’t be happier at 166k miles now.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 10:27

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Interesting nobody mentioned it when your heads were giving you trouble. My service advisors all usually have a list of top tier retailers readily available. Anytime we have a car with a weird drivability concern we will ask the customer what kind of fuel they use and where they get it as well as ensure they are aware of top tier. Fuel quality is often the culprit, especially in winter, often had to do with Reid Vapor Pressure.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficienc…

http://www.epa.gov/gasoline-stand…

Takuro Spirit > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 10:36

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Yup, only a few stations advertise it (Kwik Trip on the backs of their fuel trucks, even) around here, but its why I used to fill up at the BP near work versus the Clark station down the road from home.

My cars always seemed to run better and get more MPG on the BP stuff. Now that I work down the road from a KT I get my gas there.

Svart Smart, traded in his Smart > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 10:46

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TIL I learned I’ve probably been filling up on Top Tier without even knowing it (92-octane from 76 and the occasional Arco).

WiscoProud > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 02/10/2016 at 10:58

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Is the difference the ethanol content? It appears Top Tier can contain ethanol like any other and ethanol does decrease MPG. Perhaps one of the stations you go to does not put ethanol in.

ESSSIX GmbH - Accountant/Wagon Thumper > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 11:19

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I wish I still had my old S4, I had a whole logging set up for it, would have been nice to test different fuels and map out the difference.

Scott > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 12:40

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One thing to keep in mind on this, is it has to do with detergent additive levels. This will not improve performance, just how clean the inside of your engine is. you can also get some good additives that you can add to other fuels. I tend to add detergent additives, I try to do it every other fill up, as there are very few top tier suppliers in my area, and I have to go out of my way to find them. I do try to use the Top Tier suppliers, if I am passing one when I need gas I’ll stop but it’s not worth it for me to go out of my way. Oddly enough the most common supplier near me is Mobil, and I also find they are often less expensive than some others that are not top tier.

Performance gains, which would also effect fuel economy has more to do with the octane level, however many cars will not take advantage of the improved performance of higher octane fuels, so unless you know yours will, you probably would be wasting your money.

I know back in the 80's CD magazine checked which cars did. I doubt it is still as relevant, but back then I don’t think any American brands benefited from higher octane. Only the more luxury brands from Asia did. Cars like Lexus, and Acura. Pretty much all the European cars benefited. How relevant this is some 25+ years later I don’t know, I have never seen anyone else test this.

The one advantage to the high octane fuel, even if your car does not make use of it, is that it is exempt from the ethanol requirements. Unless your car is made to use ethanol, it will break down many of the seals and gaskets in your engine. The EPA mandated amount is high enough that it can do some damage. I would imagine most newer cars are made to meet the higher levels of ethanol in gas these days but that’s just my assumption.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > daender 02/10/2016 at 12:41

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Yeah I have found I definitely get different MPG and performance variables out of different gas stations in my Miata as well. This is relatively noticeable in a Miata just because every HP counts really. Typically I fill up at Wawa since it is closest and generally cheapest credit pricing. But they only have 92 for premium and their gas is supplied by various companies. Now when I have been able to fill up at a Sunoco with 93, I definitely notice a difference in both mileage and performance. It is a minor difference so I will not go out of my way for it, but it is definitely there.

Yowz3r > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 13:20

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Not to be contrarian but what are the chances that this is just a marketing ploy given the idea that most of the gasoline is coming from the same refineries and pipelines?

Bytemite > daender 02/10/2016 at 13:29

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But the Miata is tuned for 87. Putting premium ain’t gonna do jack on a car that can’t adjust ignition timing. Premium also doesn’t have more detergents or something, it just has more octane to resist self-combustion.

daender > Bytemite 02/10/2016 at 13:35

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Not true! I own a NB2 Miata which has higher compression (10:1 versus 9:1 in the NA and 9.5:1 in the NB1) and thus requires premium to avoid pre-detonation. I’ve run it with 87 and it runs like a tired dog the very second it pulls ignition and timing, it also reduces my gas economy by about 3-5 mpg.

Bytemite > daender 02/10/2016 at 13:41

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I didn’t know they switched to premium on the NB2 and onwards?

I’m pretty sure with those crappy HP/liter ratios of Miata engines, they were all regular fuel.

daender > Bytemite 02/10/2016 at 13:45

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I’m pretty sure with those crappy HP/liter ratios of Miata engines, they were all regular fuel.

Rude much?

khanj42 > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 14:04

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It’s mostly bunk. I work in the energy industry. Gasoline and other motor fuels are tested for viscosity, opacity, and flash point along with a few other specifications. There’s no significant different between the brand name being marketed to you at the gas pump. My company will buy (or sell) fuel to another energy company, who will put it in tankers alongside hundreds of thousands of barrels of the same grade fuel, discharged into shore tanks and tank trucks, and then shipped to various gas stations all over the country.

Your “Top Tier” fuel station pays a lot of money for that sticker, but you the consumer don’t know if that fuel was refined in California, Texas, or Ulsan Korea. As long as the product matched the spec as I mentioned in my first sentence, they pay their full wholesale price. Your local Chevron station may actually have gasoline refined and transported by a Chevron refinery, or it may not. If the supplier was able to find that gasoline at a lower cost from (for instance) Tesoro- that’s the fuel they’re going to buy and sell to you at the pump.

Keep in mind that shipments of fuels fail spec all the time. Co-mingling with a lesser refined product can throw the spec off and make it exceed the suppliers requirements, but still be within the (fairly weak) EPA regulations. That ship that carried 85,000 barrels of premium gasoline for Shell today might be carrying 87 octane for BP tomorrow and you don’t know how well a job they did washing tanks since the previous job. If it is off-spec then all the wholesale purchaser does is get a discounted price. They take the product and throw additives into the top of the tank and hope for the best when it gets to the pump.

Tridian > wiffleballtony 02/10/2016 at 14:04

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When I begrudgingly filled up at a Valero recently, I assumed they put the “top tier” sticker on the pump as a ploy to convince me I wasn’t filling my car with the equivalent of liquefied soil. Nice to know it actually meant something entirely different.

Bytemite > daender 02/10/2016 at 14:11

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Hah, not trying to be rude, I know our Miatas don’t make as much power as they could because they’re tuned for regular fuel.

Do you have any dyno proof of this premium hp gain?

wiffleballtony > Tridian 02/10/2016 at 14:12

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Top Tier Soil is very green. Way to be eco conscious.

Tohru > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 14:18

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I thought that was just Kwik Trip marketing bullshit.

daender > Bytemite 02/10/2016 at 14:28

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Negative, no proof beside butt-dynos and measuring the time it took to accelerate from 0 to 70 mph on an empty strip of country highway (speed limit of 60 mph). Regular took about an extra 2 seconds versus premium, both times with a full tank after running it down to near-empty and shifting at 6.5k.

Bytemite > daender 02/10/2016 at 14:49

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U need to recalibrate your butt-dyno sir. 2 seconds off is like saying your Miata went from 140 hp to 200+ hp. I’ll put some premium into my NA next time I fill up. But I’m 99% sure it won’t make any difference since I do not have any knocking whatsoever at 87.

cazzyodo > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/10/2016 at 15:18

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Here, I put this together last year . I used to work in the fuel industry and scheduled shipments along several pipelines. I don’t remember what I wrote this day but it’s probably most true haha.

dogisbadob > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 02/10/2016 at 15:19

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Costco is top tier

daender > Bytemite 02/10/2016 at 15:38

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It won’t make a difference in a NA (I’m assuming you haven’t swapped in a VVT motor) because you don’t have high enough compression to cause knock with lower-grade fuel!

Bytemite > daender 02/10/2016 at 15:47

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Yes this is true I have crappy compression with the NA but even with your 10:1 ratio, which is still easily within 87 octane limits, you shouldn’t have any knock. 10:1 is pretty damn low anyway, even by 2000s standards. Your increased HP and compression is offset by timing and air:fuel mixture so that you won’t need to increase octane. That’s why you will find in your owners manual, 87 octane. It doesn’t even say 91 or 93 recommended.

daender > Bytemite 02/10/2016 at 16:00

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That’s why you will find in your owners manual, 87 octane. It doesn’t even say 91 or 93 recommended.

I’m sorry but you are completely wrong.

-2002 Miata Owner’s Manual page 4-2

Bytemite > daender 02/10/2016 at 16:22

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OH SHIT! I GOT SHOWN UP!

Good oppo. Thanks for producing the goods.

brianbrannon > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/11/2016 at 19:39

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Why did you need both heads rebuilt? I’m an Acura tech and haven't seen that needed.

reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. > brianbrannon 02/11/2016 at 21:37

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It’s interesting that you say that, because as I went through the repair experience (and that’s a long story), I kept getting feedback that it wasn’t an unusual situation.

The first symptom was coolant loss. The car ran great, there was no cloud or residue at the exhaust. I discovered it by noticing the engine temp was running higher - it never overheated. Followed shortly after by oil loss (less than a week - the coolant level was still fine). Again, no other symptoms - from behind the wheel, you’d never have known there was a problem.

Took it to the Acura dealer for diagnosis and got the call shortly after 9AM; advisor said I’d “burned up” the heads and they needed replaced - $4K minimum, could be more - I should probably talk to sales about trading it in. That seemed to me like a pretty quick diagnosis of something as severe as that...unless they’d seen it before. I asked how that could happen, and the SA basically accused me of poor maintenance because the last time they saw me was for the 60K service. (they were 40 minutes away; It was much more convenient for me to use the shop that is a 10 minute walk from my house for straightforward maintenance. I had planned to use the dealer for the upcoming 105K service.) He pissed me off enough that I decided to get a second opinion elsewhere.

Unfortunately, my convenient shop gave me the runaround and basically didn’t want to take on the big job (no surprise, really), so I started searching for a shop. A phone call to a private Honda/Acura specialist had a guy tell me he thought there was a secret recall for that problem (I didn’t use them). While shopping for a possible replacement vehicle, I had a Subaru salesman tell me he had the same problem at about the same mileage with his MDX, and recommended his shop for the repair. They took great care of me, said they’ve seen more than a few of these, and did a fantastic job, including a new water pump and radiator, plus the rest of the maintenance called for @ 105K, for around $3300. That was nearly 2 years/16K miles ago, and the car has been faultless since.

brianbrannon > reverberocket is nipping the apex..and gently blowing in it's ear. 02/12/2016 at 02:20

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I would bet your whole issue was due to the radiator