How do you Miles?

"PartyPooper2012" (PartyPooper2012) 11/30/2016 at 13:12 • Filed to: None

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I was a teen with a driver’s license in hand. I asked my dad what a reasonable mileage for a car was and he said - I wouldn’t get anything over 100k miles.

It may or may not still be a case for dinosaur tears fueled cars.

But...

What’s a reasonable mileage for a hybrid car now? (Prius)

What’s a reasonable mileage for a fully electric car now? (Tesla)

What’s a reasonable mileage for a hydrogen car? (Toyota Mirai)

and more importantly - WHY

HammerheadFistpunch > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:16

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Regular car? depends. I would buy a 90's Toyota with 200k, I wouldn’t buy an FCA with over 50k

Hybrid? No more than 100k, yes the batteries can last longer than that but you are on borrowed time, plus parts for them can be pricey (go price out a Prius windshield and die inside)

Fully electric? With a battery warranty I would say up to 100k is fine.

Hydrogen car? well you can’t buy a high mileage one...

71MGBGT Likes Subarus of Unusual Colors > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:19

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My girlfriend recently bought a 300K 1998 Honda, I’ll let you know how that goes

PartyPooper2012 > HammerheadFistpunch 11/30/2016 at 13:19

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Why the threshold? What wears out?

404 - User No Longer Available > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:20

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Think you have to factor in age as well. Generally 24k kms / 15k miles per year is acceptable.

And I guess location is a factor too. I know in Asia (Hong Kong), people ditch their cars when they hit like 60k kms, and usually the car is like 10+ years old. It’s barely broken in here.

PartyPooper2012 > 71MGBGT Likes Subarus of Unusual Colors 11/30/2016 at 13:21

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my guess. not much. Oppos and Jalops know the 90s Toyotas and Hondas are made out unobtanium and will last forever or until wrapped around a tree whichever comes first. I am talking about averaging all cars of their kinds.

HammerheadFistpunch > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:21

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for which one?

PartyPooper2012 > HammerheadFistpunch 11/30/2016 at 13:22

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well, we all know in gas engine the rings may wear down.

Similar could be said for a hybrid. What about the other two?

MonkeePuzzle > 71MGBGT Likes Subarus of Unusual Colors 11/30/2016 at 13:23

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I bought a 300K ‘97 civic. it sounded like a diesel...

HammerheadFistpunch > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:26

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It may not be the rings. My rings are fine at 283,000...but...I just had an injector fail.

With hybrids the battery will loose capacity and with cars with Ecvt’slikethe prius the battery is an integral part of making the transmission work at all. IF the battery falls below a certain level it will be hard on the rest of the car and you aren’t getting any hybrid benefits at all.

With EV, its all battery and connectors, although teslas seem to not do well with high mileage these days

PartyPooper2012 > 404 - User No Longer Available 11/30/2016 at 13:26

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Asia is a bit different. For instance in Japan they have inspections that are brutal. One scratch and you have to pay crazy fines and/or get it repaired so they just ditch cars with very low miles if there is a tiny imperfection. It makes sense in a highly populated and limited spaced areas to enforce a perfect condition cars to make sure break downs don’t cause too much traffic. In US of A, we almost always have a shoulder to pull over and wrench a bit.

Censored > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:28

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My Boss has a 2g prius that is an absolute tank. He has literally done nothing to it outside of regular. Changed the Oil, wipers, light bulbs and tires. It now has 240k mi on it right now and shows no signs of slowing. He is pretty hard on vehicles as well, he has the digital throttle and brake method of driving down. Gas is on or off directly coupled to the brake in the inverse state. The car has the OEM brakes for goodness sakes. We gave him no ends of ridicule when he bought it, but now I wonder if picking up a used one wouldn’t be a great idea for a commuter car. (too bad that between the wife and I we have 5 modes of transportation already.)

Why? Modern build quality.

PartyPooper2012 > HammerheadFistpunch 11/30/2016 at 13:28

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I am not saying all high mile cars will definitely have the rings worn down. I am giving an example of what could go.

Assuming tesla perfects their battery business, I would venture to say hybrids and electrics will outmile gas cars some day.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:29

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I wouldn’t fear high miles on a Prius any more than a standard car. Honda hybrids are a different story. The Prius battery packs have been surprisingly strong when compared to other marques’. The fail rate is stupid low, like less than .5% and there were plenty of Prius and Camry hybrid in fleet use to test that. Also on a Gen2 Prius, the battery replacement only involves an 11mm socket and electricians gloves (just in case) you can source battery packs (rebuilt, tested and warrantied) for less than $1000. Sure, that’s not cheap, but keep in mind the average consumer has a $5000 pricetag in their head and therefore the value of a high-mileage hybrid is depressed below actual value.

As for the Hondas, their fail rate is around 12%. So it’s only a matter of time before you will change that battery.

The Toyota Celica from the 90s, rust free, is still one of the most durable cars I have ever personally witnessed. We serviced one that was on its original expensive parts after 450k miles. Dynamite little cars that way.

Hydrogen, my concern would be the age of the fuel delivery system, but really the problem is a lack of data.Any miles on a hydrogen car are high miles considering the relatively small fleet of them.

The only unique problem to electric cars is the battery. I have heard from Leaf owners that 2-3 years and 60k miles into it, the range is noticeably shorter than brand-new. I assume, like most batteries, that would be the case for EVs. I would pick one with a battery i could get to with standard tools over one that needs to be cut from the car, but that’s just me.

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:29

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Avoid a low mile city driven car, your better off getting a high mile highway driven car.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:30

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My parents have a ‘06 Rx400h with 345k on the original battery pack. You take care of the car and the car will take care of you. Preii are known for going around 200-250k on a battery pack. Everything else is bulletproof

interstate366, now In The Industry > 71MGBGT Likes Subarus of Unusual Colors 11/30/2016 at 13:31

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As long as it isn’t a Prelude (oil burner) or anything with a V6 (glass transmissions) it’ll be fine. Probably.

HammerheadFistpunch > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:33

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The thing with Tesla is that its not just the batteries.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/

They will only get better (hopefully) but they aren’t exactly reliable now.

71MGBGT Likes Subarus of Unusual Colors > interstate366, now In The Industry 11/30/2016 at 13:34

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It’s an Oddesy, is that good?

PartyPooper2012 > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 11/30/2016 at 13:34

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I agree. Toyotas and Hondas of the 90s were damn near bulletproof as can be seen from your celica example.

Leaf or Volt are kind of a bad representations of EVs. Companies that make them are still depend majorly on their gas vehicles and are just toying with EVs on the side. I think Tesla is a better representation. What I am wondering though, in my original question, is how far can they go before the going stops?

Are there any examples of high mile teslas?... that still run on original battery?

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > HammerheadFistpunch 11/30/2016 at 13:35

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I’d go even higher on an electric that was in good overall condition. They have so little to go wrong that isn’t electrical, such simple transmissions (which do need a very occasional gear oil change), etc, that the only thing you actually need to worry about is overall condition and how old the battery is (which is the big repair expense with electric cars).

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:35

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I don’t know about other manufacturers, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Prius with 200k on it if I were the sort of person who would buy a Prius. One time I towed one with 280k because the battery had died, but it was actually just both discharged and the car was out of gas...in that case the dealer needed to reset it and the battery was still good.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:37

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They may be on the original battery, but the thing to Nissan and other gas-reliant manufacturers, they know how to build a car for the long-term. Tesla made a sweet car that blows away its competition at delivery, but they’re not doing so hot 4 years later with wear items atypical of troubles in established brands.

PartyPooper2012 > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 11/30/2016 at 13:38

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interesting.

I don’t see many teslas for sale on CraigsList.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:41

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The 2014s from my understanding are the Teslas to avoid at all cost. It was the year they really attempted to ramp up volume and body integrity and overall quality hit the skids. When you read about a Tesla giving its owner fits, it’s likely a 2014.

3point8isgreat > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:45

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In a hybrid or EV the battery will break down from use. The speed of this breakdown is dependent on a ton of factors. View it kind of like wearing down the bearings or rings in an engine in that regard. So the type of use, duration, and specific conditions are all very important to how long it’ll actually go.

Hydrogen you’ll have a breakdown of the fuel cell membranes. Some formulations do not like starting and stopping. Others will have very specific temperature range requirements. Any that make it into vehicular mass production of course will be designed to be better in those areas though. I would still expect to see some amount of degradation in membranes with regular use. though. I agree though that there’s not really any good way to tell how long this process would take.

As a note, hydrogen cars will probably often have a battery similar to a hybrid. It could be used in a nearly identical way to how they’re used in hybrids for regenerative braking, or letting the fuel cell run at a more efficient power. This also lets you undersize the fuel cell compared to peak power demands, since the power for short bursts would be taken from the battery.

PartyPooper2012 > 3point8isgreat 11/30/2016 at 13:48

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3.8

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 13:53

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I consider 10k per year the kind of mileage I would expect.

As for electric the age of the vehicle is more important than now many miles are on it. The control circuits for the battery packs are good enough that you are going to see more decay from time than from use. Battery technology is also advancing at a rate where the newer vehicles have better packs which will last longer under the same conditions than the older packs.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 14:31

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I think people who avoid 100k mile cars are ridiculous. But I am glad they exist because it drives the price down for any car. A car with 99,999 miles is easily worth 25% or more than the same exact car with 100,001 miles because of that. I refuse to buy a car with less than 100k miles and generally prefer one that has already had timing belt and water pump done.

But that is for traditional cars. I imagine it is different for something either partly or all electric since the battery is important. Perhaps if the battery has already been replaced, then it doesnt matter. Or if it is cheap enough with an end-of-life battery, then you could replace it and continue onwards. I wouldnt want one somewhere in between though.

bhtooefr > HammerheadFistpunch 11/30/2016 at 14:34

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The thing with batteries is... I’d worry more about age than mileage. And, coming from VW ownership in the past, dropping $1-3k on a battery as the only really horrific expense isn’t bad. (I’d drop the $3k - the third-party rebuilt batteries aren’t doing so hot any more on the older Priuses, so I’d get one from Toyota.) That said, I’d be afraid of Honda hybrids due to their battery quality and usage issues.

A four year old Prius with 120,000 mi? Fine, it’s got years left in it.

A fifteen year old Prius with 50,000 mi, driven by a grandmother to church on Sundays only? I’m expecting to replace the battery.

bhtooefr > HammerheadFistpunch 11/30/2016 at 14:35

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Although the eCVT’s a fairly simple device, and a failing battery won’t actually load the transmission that much more - you still have a lot of power going through the electrical path when it’s working properly, and you have a lot going through when it’s not working properly.

PartyPooper2012 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 11/30/2016 at 14:36

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From what I gather, everyone is super concerned with battery. What about the electric motor? Isn’t that going to go much sooner than the battery? Are these motors built differently?

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 15:19

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Well the electric motor should inherently last longer than an internal combustion motor (depends on the design and wear parts though I suppose). I would consider any other parts the same way as consumables on a gas car. The battery however, has a limited lifetime no matter what. Then depending on the duty cycle, could be significantly reduced. Either way, it is often difficult/expensive to change. But this could also be a key factor in driving the price down. If the price is low enough, buying a hybrid/electric with a dead/dying battery for super cheap and just buying a new battery could be a smart choice.

Hateful Mate > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 15:28

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I don’t care about mileage at all. I do care about maintenance, and contition. Why? Because 200.000 miles of careful maintenance is less taxing than 50.000 miles of neglect and abuse. Case in point; I had some lovely Recaro seats out of an (at that time) 5 year old evo 7. It was being stripped for parts because of neglect. Apparently the owner had driven it on the beach regularily, but wasn’t really a fan of washing cars. It had no sills, No rear arches, and the subframes wouldn’t come off, because the bolts where too rusty.

On the other hand, a friend has a 350.000 mile 89 miata, on it’s original (unreliable) shortnose engine. It’s mint, apart from where he’s polished through to the primer.

I also picked up a ToyotaAristo from a friend. His dad had it before him, so I know the mileage has to be reasonable. If i didn’t know better, I’d swear they knocked a few 100.000 off it. The steering wheel and gear lever are worn through, and the seats have cracks. Plastic fittings in the engine bay are broken, The paint is shot. And how far has this Lovely luxurymobile of mid 90's Toyota Quality made it, before appearing about as worse for wear as Mickey Rourke? 145.000 Km.... That’s 90.000 miles, for you imperial people. Somehow it manages to be the lowest mileage, and most worn out car I’ve ever bought at the same time. But nevermind that. It has 2jz. And 2jz never fails.

Maintanence is everything. Or tools. Tools are good too.

Hateful Mate > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 15:44

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Basically batteries have a limited ammount of times they can be charged, and also get worse with age. It’s the same as your cellphone or laptop that gets shorter battery life after a couple of years. Tesla etc use the same battery technology in their cars. Just a whole bunch of them. Electric motors on the other hand are fairly simple. Just a bunch of wire wrapped around an axle. Unless the bearings wear out, it shouldn’t really be an issue. The torque can screw up the gearboxes though, as Tesla found out.

If you are truly looking at a used hybrid of sorts, why not check out the g.m products? The volt has a clever, and more modern system compared to toyota, where the electric motor just helps the gas engine along. Have a look at the smoking tires review for what thats actually like to live with.

Personally, I wouldnt go for a hybrid or electric, unless you live in the city, and can save time on travel using bus lanes etc. There are just so many fun cheap to run older cars out there. I’m not sure what insurance is like where you are, but something light or basic allways wins for me. Looking at the prices now, a Lotus Elise is cheaper than a Tesla Model S, and it’s not likely to loose value. There are also much less things to go wrong, and it gets good Mpg.

My bird IS the word > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 16:10

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It’s always a cost of maintenance vs convince of a new car. A car itself can last millions of miles, but you will eventually replace every part on it. Compared to the relatively low price of a new car, most just opt to spend a little more once a cars repairs total higher than resale, even though it is still a “good” car. It’s more resale value that drives these decisions.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 16:12

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There was this review of a 100k mile Tesla , which sounds cheerful until you consider what the cost to replace a lot of that crap is. Most hybrids I would be VERY concerned about battery replacement and factor that in to almost any buying decision.

But, you’re right to ask. We are in uncharted territory here. Also, as others have said, the 100k thing on a distilled dino car is crazy. I have to 100k+ cars, one at 160k and another at 191k, and I’m not worried about either.

PartyPooper2012 > Hateful Mate 11/30/2016 at 16:33

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I am not looking at all actually. I am just wondering if the EV or hybrids or hydrogen cars have same stigma associated with them about 100k miles as gas guzzlers.
Reading comments here, it appears to be a resounding yes. People still want cars driven around 15k miles a year. seems archaic to me. Say cars from 70s or 80s were made of material light years behind material used today. It stands to reason modern cars should last longer. If we compare apples to apples - i.e. gas to gas, then yes, they do last longer. However, now we have few other options and my question was - do people still think of them in same way

PartyPooper2012 > Hateful Mate 11/30/2016 at 16:36

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yes. I understand maintenance etc. However, my question was more of apples to apples

You take a gas, hybrid, electric and hydrogen car and drive them all for exact same miles on same exact road. Maintain at proper intervals. Which will last the longest?

You go on craigslist and see two cars that have been carefully maintained. one is gas and other is “other”. Both have 150K miles. Do you ignore the Other and look strictly at gas? Do you not look at all?

Hateful Mate > PartyPooper2012 11/30/2016 at 19:57

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In that case, seeing how it’s new tech, I’d try to dig up as much service and warranty history as possible, to see which one had been reliable so far. Looking for recurring problems, etc. Like, Audi has their dash fires, Mercedes have their ecu problems. I know priuses have high voltage controller issues, where its common to swap the whole pack out. Stuff like that should show up, and as such give you an idea of how much expensive stuff has been replaced under warranty, and how often it fails. Other than that, theres so few of these cars now with hight mileage, it’s hard to tell. Especially as new tech has to be tried before we find out whats broken. Saying that, there’s a couple of prius taxies around where i live, with around 200.000 miles on them. Now on the 3rd battery pack as far as I know. I was considering a high mileage, cheap prius for work a while back, but i spoke to a friend who’s a toyota mechanic, and looking at the cost of replacing some of the things that are no longer under warranty and know for breaking, I got a Rav 4 instead. Especially at higher mileage, I’d go for the simpler vehicle.

At 150.000 Given the cars are the same year, I’d have a look at what brand it is, and maitenance costs. For reliability, I’d pick a petrol powered Mercedes over a Tesla any day, yet I’d also pick a hybrid Chevy Volt over a Mercedes, as I know how expensive a merc can be to fix. And how much of a pain. Sometimes the brand can mean higher maintenance cost than the technology. And as new as these cars are, they have to go to dealers for most things, even including oil changes and brake services, as you need diagnostic computers to reset and tune the transmission, and bleed the brakes. Also, around where I live, the most commonly seen cars on the back of a tow truck, is a Tesla, and a mk4 golf. That should count for something, I guess.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > PartyPooper2012 12/07/2016 at 13:03

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Depends on the age of the vehicle... I only buy 20+ Year old vehicles. So to me, mileage doesn’t matter, it’s all about mechanical and physical condition. If it has few-no leaks and drives well with little to no rust I’m happy. But if its a newer vehicle I’d say my limit is 110,000 miles.

PS- I have a friend with a 1962 Buick, he said he only bought it because it had less than 100k on the clock, but starting a week after he bought it, the carb started leaking, the trans went out (twice), and it leaks a crap ton of oil and fuel. So after a certain age point, mileage means nothing to the quality of the vehicle