Here's why I don't really care about VW DieselGate

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein) 09/22/2015 at 16:35 • Filed to: None

13

42

In the wake of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , many people share some variation of this opinion about Volkswagen: THEY LIED ON PURPOSE! HOW CAN WE EVER TRUST THEM AGAIN? Well I’m here to tell you, this doesn’t surprise me in the least, and frankly doesn’t even lower my opinion of Volkswagen.

DISCLAIMER: Volkswagen wanted me to write this not-entirely-negative post about them so badly, they made their cars in such a way as to attract customers who I generally hate, which caused me to develop over many years a deeply-seated loathing for all VW products and their drivers. Even when I kinda like driving a particular VW car, I still hate it, because it’s a VW.

To distill DieselGate down to its absolute most basic idea, Volkswagen installed engine control software on its cars that:

During conditions resembling an EPA test, makes the cars in which it is installed behave in a way that allows the cars to pass the EPA test.

During conditions not resembling an EPA test, makes the cars in which it is installed behave in a way that is perhaps more desirable to the driver, but does not pass the EPA test.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency decided that this violates some regulation or another that I don’t particularly feel like looking up. Which means that VW made a deliberate choice to do a thing that was later determined to have broken a law.

OH NO, A MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION DID SOMETHING THAT BROKE THE LAW , ON PURPOSE!

I’m here to tell you that megalocorporations like Volkswagen do not care at all about little things like ethics, morals, or laws. They do things that are ethically, morally, and legally questionable all the time! They are able to do these things and get away with them because they have gigantic teams of lawyers and accountants whose sole job is to answer this question:

“We are planning to do this (potentially questionable) thing. Will we get in trouble for doing it?”

Nobody at VW went rogue and secretly installed emissions-test-cheating software on their cars. Some higher-up person had to make a decision to implement the DieselGate software, and a team of engineers had to actually make the DieselGate software. At one or more steps along the way, someone probably said, “ok, let’s check with Legal about this.” The VW legal department probably reviewed the plan, and said “well, seems like technically you’re following the EPA regulations, go ahead.”

Frankly, this is what all companies do. Every company wants to make a product that its customers will like, as cheaply and efficiently as possible, and wants to spend as little time and money as possible on making it comply with all of the regulations they’re required to follow, while not messing up the product in the name of regulations so much that its customers will no longer like it. Companies just don’t like government regulations! They dislike regulations so much that one of the two main U.S. political parties has this as a core tenet of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! :

Government spending and regulation must be reined in.

DieselGate isn’t even close to the first time a car company has tried to get around emissions or fuel economy regulations. Car companies try to get around emissions or fuel economy regulations (and plenty of other types of regulations too) all the time! That’s what car companies do!

Popular Mechanics has a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of some ways that car companies have skirted these kinds of regulations, but my favorite is GM’s skip shift feature.

For 1989, GM replaced the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in the C4 Corvette with a ZF 6-speed manual. The only problem was, the new 6-speed cars did terribly on EPA fuel economy tests, and were going to be subject to a gas guzzler tax.

GM came up with a workaround called !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (Computer Aided Gear Selection). If you’re not driving particularly quickly in a CAGS-equipped car, when you try to shift out of 1st gear, a solenoid forces the manual shifter over to 4th gear for you. If you give it more gas in 1st, you can shift from 1st to 2nd or 3rd as you please.

While unsophisticated, this trick worked well enough to help the 1989 Corvette avoid a gas guzzler tax, and is in fact still present on manual transmission Corvettes (and other V8 GM cars) to this day! At first, GM was rather wink-wink nudge-nudge about CAGS. According to Popular Mechanics,

“The owner’s manual even had a picture of the solenoid, showing where the wiring to the computer was connected. The photograph was cleverly captioned to caution drivers not to disconnect this wire, or the skip-shift feature would no longer function.”

GM no longer publishes instructions for disabling their fuel economy cheat mode in their owners manuals , but the feature is still present on Corvettes. The activation window has gotten smaller as Corvettes have gotten more efficient, but it’s still there. Essentially, CAGS is a trick that:

During conditions resembling an EPA test, makes the cars in which it is installed behave in a way that allows the cars to pass the EPA test.

During conditions not resembling an EPA test, makes the cars in which it is installed behave in a way that is perhaps more desirable to the driver, but does not pass the EPA test.

Hmmm....that list seems familiar, yes? It should, because I copied and pasted it from the top of this post.

(Oh, and there are any number of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! out there available for 20 bucks or less.)

The only difference between what VW did with DieselGate, and what GM does with CAGS, is the DieselGate software that restricts the car into EPA compliance is not active in any conditions that a typical driver might encounter. Of course, GM makes CAGS very easy to disable entirely, but GM isn’t the one doing the disabling. That’s the only line VW crossed.

Is this such a huge line that VW crossed that everyone should be all up in arms about how they’re such a naughty company? Honestly, to my mind, it’s just not a big deal. Because in the scheme of things, other car companies have made cars, deliberately or otherwise, that HAVE LITERALLY KILLED PEOPLE.

People hurt/killed by Ford Explorers with Firestone Tires: more than zero
People hurt/killed by faulty GM ignition switches: more than zero
People hurt/killed by Takata shrapnel-bags: more than zero
People hurt/killed by DieselGate: zero

Sure, these companies didn’t SET OUT to kill people with their cars, then run the idea by their legal departments who said “sounds good to us!” But the corporate decision-making that led to these deadly vehicles isn’t really all that different from VW’s decision-making behind DieselGate. To be so upset because OMG VW LIED TO US ALL, is in my mind, focusing on the wrong part of the problem.

Then again, I wasn’t going to buy a VW anyway.

Ike > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 16:42

4

Here here, I very much agree with you.

Is this a issue? Yes.

Did people die? No.

Fix it, slap VW on the wrist, fix the cars, and move on.

LongbowMkII > Ike 09/22/2015 at 16:47

3

you can’t just slap them on the wrist. You have to make it a bad business decision to fuck around with emissions or else every company will do something similar leading to worse air.

tpw_rules > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 16:50

0

This, of course, assumes that we don’t like pollution because it’s ugly rather than the broad health effects it has. The cars covered in the recall put out a lot of extra NOx. I wonder how many pollution-related deaths that translates to?

Milky > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 16:50

1

luvMeSome142 & some Lincoln! > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 16:51

0

I’ve seen that guy’s face on billboards in my town!

Tekamul > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 16:51

0

“People hurt/killed by DieselGate: zero”

You know NOx leads to smog, which causes respiratory maladies and shortens life expectancy, right?

This is akin to VW dumping toxic chemicals in a river for 6 years and lying about it.

Milky > LongbowMkII 09/22/2015 at 16:53

2

If thats the case GM’s fine should be way worse. To make sure other companies don't do something similar leading to more deaths.

Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 16:54

1

I’d say the question here is around intent.

I doubt think Takata set out to kill people when they made their airbags, same with Firestone and their tires. Volkswagen deliberately lied to the people buying their products. If you go to the grocery store and buy organic food, you expect that it is organic, if it isnt you are going to get angry since you paid an extra few dollars to get that organic food. Except you arent buying some $12 grass fed apples here. People spent 10s of thousands of dollars on a vehicle that they were deliberately lied to about. Not only does that violate EPA rules, it sounds shockingly like fraud to me, which is also very illegal.

LongbowMkII > Milky 09/22/2015 at 16:56

2

The NHTSA doesn’t have the power of the EPA. Didn’t the NHTSA max out their fines?

Ike > LongbowMkII 09/22/2015 at 17:00

0

I agree we all want clean air, the rules should be harder to get around, with more first party and real world testing.

Let's figure out how we can regulate better first maybe, and GM should face stiffer fines the VW is facing cause ya know they KILLED PEOPLE!

MrPseudonym > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 17:03

0

I’m just sitting here shaking my head at the fact that the car companies who make mistakes that they most of the time fix get harsher punishments than the oil sector, who make mistakes that are really hard to fix, and then never do, even though it’s easy enough with their capital.

*sigh*

Some things never change, do they?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 17:04

1

Nope, can’t support this idea. Do not set the precedent that everyone should game the system, then completely obliterate the emissions requirements in response. 10-40x the limits means that that half million cars produced the same emissions per mile as 5million to 20 million TDI cars. That is freakishly bad.

It isn’t about what VW *did* it is about what VW *encourages*. At the very least, with the cadillac AC system, the car broke the limit by a bit and did so when the system engaged a mechanical pump that was part of the accessory system. One could argue that GM had a separate set of code for when the AC was on to compensate for AC use. VW was simply “Are we being tested? Act nice. Are we not being tested? FUCK IT!”. The shiter solenoid is also a bit dodge yet at the same time, what is stopping me as the driver from making that choice? I can make a prius get less than 30mpg by driving like an ass. I can hypermile a dodge charger RT and probably get over 30 mpg on the freeway. Mileage =/= emissions.

nermal > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 17:08

0

There’s no fee unless we get money for you!

jariten1781 > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 17:12

0

Don’t agree with most of your reasoning, but overall we’re on the same page...idgaf...folks were cheating, they got caught, now they’ll get fined. That’s how it’s supposed to work!

If we thought we’d always agree and everyone had godlike morality we wouldn’t need regulations or fines, they’d be superfluous.

But it’s fun watching from the bleachers.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 17:38

1

My question to you is: if instead of pumping pollutants into the air, they were polluting into a river, would your opinion still be the same?

Also, GMs skip shift, is like any other aid to fuel economy and absolutely not at all like this. Same goes for cylinder deactivation and turbos. Don’t even try to compare them.

Cé hé sin > Tekamul 09/22/2015 at 17:41

1

So, have we any idea how much extra NOx was produced by VW cars and what affect this has on overall NOx levels? Do we know the real world NOx emissions of cars and trucks without the special software?

Without knowing this nobody can say what effect (if any) this has on public health.

LongbowMkII > Ike 09/22/2015 at 17:44

1

as I said in another space, the EPA has much more legal power than the NHTSA. The regulations seem to be fine, since as of now this is only a VAG problem. If cheating the system was a industry wide problem then I’d agree that the regulations should be changed. Getting something changed in the EPA and the politcal theater around it would be a nightmare.

daveIT > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 17:46

0

I’m gonna buy one of these real cheap...run a smoke stack up through the trunk and roll coal everywhere...

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 09/22/2015 at 18:01

0

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I totally think that pollution is a bad thing.

My main idea here is that people are all saying they’re concerned with VW’s intent , when really I’m so pessimistic about all large corporations that I assume, of course they all have bad intent .

VW’s intent here was no worse than any other big corporation making any other questionable decision. They just got caught.

Skip shift is not the same as cylinder deactivation and turbos because cylinder deactivation and turbos are not a little tacked-on system that’s easily defeated by the owner of the car.

Unlike skip-shift, you can’t just say “I don’t feel like my car being turbo anymore,” snip a wire, or install a part from eBay, and have it drive better. Same thing with cylinder deactivation. It does something when you’re cruising on the highway, when you don’t need those cylinders anyway. Skip shift, it’s getting in your way in the name of fuel economy, but you can easily defeat it if you find it annoying.

Textured Soy Protein > Tekamul 09/22/2015 at 18:02

1

Sure, pollution is bad and eventually people might see negative effects from it. But it’s not a direct connection like, say, an airbag exploding and impaling you through the heart with a shard of metal that wasn’t supposed to be there.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:09

0

But you can easily defeat the turbo boost a cylinder deactivation by using your throttle more. That doesn’t even take parts. And you could shift from 1st to 4th on any manual, doesn’t need to be equipped as such.

BigBlock440 > Ike 09/22/2015 at 18:15

1

No, they didn’t kill people, they shut their cars off, just the same as if it ran out of gas. Then they fixed it but didn’t tell anybody.

BigBlock440 > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:17

0

Ok, how about the cataylic converter? That’s an easily defeat-able trick to get past emissions.

Textured Soy Protein > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/22/2015 at 18:17

0

I don’t want to set the precedent that car companies should do bad things either.

All I’m saying in my entirely-too-long post is that we shouldn’t really be so hung up on the fact that VW intended to break the law , as if their executives sat around a darkened conference room and all said “WE’RE TOTALLY GOING TO BREAK THIS LAW, YOU GUYS!”

VW’s intent , which many people are focusing on, was exactly the same as all the other companies, which is to get around whatever regulations get in the way of their profits. I just so happens in this case, this company got caught doing something that unfortunately for them did not successfully get around a regulation.

Textured Soy Protein > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 09/22/2015 at 18:19

0

You and many others are questioning VW’s intent, as if their executives sat around a darkened conference room and all said “WE’RE TOTALLY GOING TO BREAK THIS LAW, YOU GUYS!”

VW’s intent , which many people are focusing on, was exactly the same as all the other companies, which is to get around whatever regulations get in the way of their profits. The exact ways that companies try to do this vary, but all of them are doing this kind of stuff in varying ways.

I just so happens in this case, this company got caught doing something that unfortunately for them did not successfully get around a regulation.

Textured Soy Protein > tpw_rules 09/22/2015 at 18:21

0

I totally agree that air pollution is a Bad Thing™. But it’s impossible to say “this particular pollution from these particular cars directly led to these particular deaths and/or injuries.”

Textured Soy Protein > BigBlock440 09/22/2015 at 18:27

1

It’s not the same as CAGS or DieselGate software because both of them are designed to first identify conditions that are similar to those that occur during an EPA test, and then get out of the way if those conditions are not present.

A catalytic converter is directly in the exhaust flow of the car and works 100% of the time. Now if a car company put a diverter valve in front of the cat that made it so the cat was only in use under certain conditions, and made it so it was very easy to have that valve bypass the cat all the time, that would be similar.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:31

0

But not only did they get around the regulations, they did so to avoid having to develop the new technologies that other companies had to do. The TDI models are thousands less than competing vehicles because they lack the equipment to be competitive. The TDI cruze starts at over 2,000$ more than a Jetta SE TDI. GM had to develop that technology, same with BMW, mercedes, and everyone else. So really this isn’t just about flipping off the EPA. It was their intent to fuck over everyone else in the industry. Who else can enter the diesel game when VW can do so with such a good motor for so cheap? Maybe Ford and Subaru would bring over their diesel engines if VW’s were priced and spec’d correctly. This whole scandal is rotten on so many levels.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:33

0

And why is that not a good enough reason to fine them? WHy have laws if there is no penalty for breaking them? Why limit free enterprise by making it a game of who has the most money to break the most rules?

Textured Soy Protein > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/22/2015 at 18:35

0

I’m not saying it’s not a good enough reason to fine VW. Fine the shit out of VW. They deserve to be fined. That’s not my point at all.

My point is very much that we shouldn’t be so surprised or upset that a giant corporation like VW did something that was later found to break a law. Or to put it another way, I am so cynical about companies that I assume the following:

All corporations behave badly, and try to get around laws, all the time.

If we assume that the above is in fact the case, then all DieselGate really means is VW’s legal department incorrectly interpreted the EPA regulations when recommending to VW management that they go ahead and install DieselGate software in their cars.

Amoore100 > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:36

0

I feel like this is all stupid. Yes, cars create emissions, that’s how they fucking work...hydrocarbons go in, water and carbon dioxide go out, one of the most basic principles in chemistry. You can’t just get rid of the CO2, and I’m sure the tiny amount released by the problem VWs is negligible, as they’re still cleaner than probably 60% of the vehicles on the road today (I made that figure up, but it’s probably pretty accurate). If the EPA really wants to clean up air emissions, they would put these restrictions on coal plants as well as require emissions testing regularly...because rolling coal is allowed and a VW with clever emissions software isn’t...

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:44

0

And so what if they did. There are plenty of things worse for the environment than a TDI Volkswagen. Or even 500,000 TDI VWs running around the US with these engines.

Unless you want to tell me with a straight face that a completely mechanical OM617-powered W123 300D Turbo is *better for the environment* (emissions-wise) than a brand new VW TDI Common rail engine (Because that is what the 40x the limit charge implies). If anyone has the actual data, I want to see it for myself, because that is prima facie insanity.

So put me down in the category of “Really can’t take the EPA or VW seriously”

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 18:45

0

Okay, well here’s myinterpretation coming from another industry.

1) VW knew what the rules were, but they also knew what the “standard” was for that to be tested.

2) VW specifically built their products to “win” that test. But also knew their product would utterly and compltely fail outside of that specific test

3) Other companies in the industry might have built “around” the test by making sure they would pass the test but might be a bit “worse” outside of it. However, to do this method they then had to follow the rules and play nice to a degree.

Look at it another way - Yes, all corproations are looking for the magic bullet. All of them will bend the rules slightly. VW didn’t just lie, they did a complete misdirect. It’s like their product turned into a completely different product during testing.

I work for a chemical company. We have our wastewater tested regularly by the EPA. We supply it to them in a truck. THis dieselgate is like us knowing the EPA only takes form the top of the truck so we “float” a layer of tap water on top. Technically, we pass the test. Easily. ANd yes, our wastewater is in that truck. But we completely fucked over the system to do so. If I found out my competitors were doing this and getting away with it? I’d sue the damn government for lost profits spent on treating my wastewater!

Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 19:03

0

This more than regulations though. This is fraud, by not telling consumers that they were not selling them the product they claimed to be, which could become an even larger part of this long term

Ike > BigBlock440 09/22/2015 at 19:11

0

No I had a Saturn with this problem, it turned off the electrics too so you couldn't steer, it happened to me a few times freaked the hell out of me, but put in neutral start car, steer

Textured Soy Protein > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 09/22/2015 at 19:19

0

I get your point that VW did lie to consumers. Yes, they called their diesels “clean” because they pass the EPA tests, when in fact in real-world driving, VW diesels then not actually putting out similar emissions in real life as what happens on EPA tests.

But to me, that’s really only a small order of magnitude worse than GM saying “Hey this Corvette gets ___ mpg on the EPA test!*” and it not actually returning mileage like that number in real world driving.

* = Because CAGS be all granny shiftin’, not double clutchin’ like you you should. ASK ANY REAL RACER. IT DON’T MATTER IF YOU WIN BY AN INCH OR A MILE. WINNING’S WINNING.

Textured Soy Protein > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/22/2015 at 19:23

0

You and I are essentially saying the same thing:

VW cheated a bit more than other companies, who also cheat, sort of.

To use another comparison, remember the year that all the F1 teams made F-ducts, before F1 came out with DRS? Each new team that came up with an F-duct was trying to come up with a new and better F-duct that was hopefully still technically within the regulations. Some of them were more brazen about it than others. Were the teams who cheated a bit more really all that worse than the other companies? In my mind, no.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Textured Soy Protein 09/22/2015 at 20:59

0

But in my mind, VW cheated a LOT more. A quantifiable amount more. Occasionally being 1.5x 2x, maybe even 3x more polluting is one thing. But 40x?!?!?!? You’re basically pretending like they never existed. Like I said, that makes the 500,000 offending cars as polluting as 20 MILLION equivalent legal cars.

So the “wrist slap” is appropriate for the “normal” amount of cheating as a reminder that the further out you go, the worse it will get. Hence, VW deserves this punishment for completely blowing past the rules.

Nauraushaun > Tekamul 09/23/2015 at 09:06

0

No, this is like VW dumping slightly more toxic chemicals in a river than everyone else. Huge difference.

Nauraushaun > Textured Soy Protein 09/23/2015 at 09:09

0

This article is perfect, and has really swayed me on the issue. For the record I think turbos are amother example of this. They’re efficient in testing because they’re efficient if you keep them out of boost. But who the hell does that?

Textured Soy Protein > Nauraushaun 09/23/2015 at 09:23

0

You’re not the first person to make the turbo comparison, but I disagree with it. Sure, a turbo varies the power and efficiency of a car’s engine depending on the conditions under which the car us being driven, BUT...

1. Generally, a turbo will present itself during normal vehicle operation, unlike DieselGate software.

2. A turbo is not easily disabled like CAGS, and does not disable itself like DieselGate software.

Also, I don’t want you to think I’m saying what VW did isn’t bad. What I’m saying is that this type of corporate bad behavior is so widespread anyway that more corporate behavior is unsurprising.

Tekamul > Nauraushaun 09/23/2015 at 11:21

0

No, that’s exactly the current state of things. Some toxic chemicals are a zero tolerance pollutant. Many are allowed in regulated quantities to be fed into waste water treatment plants, where it continues on to the water table. In this analogy, VW has skipped the treatment plant, and opened the pipe into the river.