In Defense of the CUV (An Enthusiast Divided)

"Garrett Davis" (GarrettDavis) 08/28/2015 at 12:11 • Filed to: None

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There are two kinds of people in this world: those who speak in sweeping generalizations, and those who don’t. Unfortunately, I seem to have just doomed myself to the former category, but I’m going to try to make up for that right now. There are a few choice industry terms thrown around these days that are sure to make the average enthusiast cringe and possibly gag. ‘Crossover’ sits comfortably on this list, somewhere between ‘CVT’ and ‘simulated engine noise’ — and there are many fair reasons for this to be the case.

Experiment time! Head on down to your local Cars and Coffee with a notepad and a can-do attitude and start asking random patrons what they think of CUVs. Actually, on second thought, just stay sitting there and keep pretend you’re working on something (and keep up that Alt+Tab technique! It’s getting better!). I can even simulate the experience for you; just pretend I’ve got on a slightly faded Snap-On T-shirt and work the phrase “wheel horsepower” into every 5th sentence. Go ahead, ask me...

Did you ask? No? OK fine. I’ll do all the heavy lifting here. Just keep pretending you’re still um... spread sheeting? Do you even know what you’re supposed to be doing right now? I’m getting way off track here...

What they would say is basically something along the lines that crossovers like, totally suck. Depending on the kind of guy (read: brosef) you ask, you’ll hear something like:

A. “They’re not real SUVs, they’re all front wheel drive crap! Just get a wagon!”

B. “They’re just jacked up cars, but worse! Just get a truck!”

C. “Real SUVs are body on frame! Get a uh... umm... wait what still has a frame these days?”

D. “You should come check out my stage 3 G35, it’s dope! Mines the one with three ‘Illest’ stickers... no the other one.”

None of them are really wrong to think that way, and to be fair that dude’s G35 actually is pretty dope. As I was writing this post I actually had to stop and think about how few body on frame small to midsize SUVs we still have, at least here in America. I had to actually do some research and put effort into this, so here’s a quick list:

Small/midsize SUVs that are still body on frame:

Toyota 4Runner

Jeep Wrangler

Nissan Xterra ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

Lexus GX

Large and/or truck based SUVs that are still body on frame:

Chevy Tahoe/Suburban/GMC Yukon/Cadillac Escalade

Nissan Armada

Infiniti QX

Ford Expedition/Lincoln Navigator (they still make these, guys!)

Mercedes G-Wagen

Toyota Sequoia

Toyota Land Cruiser/Lexus LX

Image courtesy of Lexus

Man. Can you believe that? Lexus has more body on frame vehicles than bald eagle riding, red, white and blue bleeding, bloody Jeep ! What is this world coming to? A world of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and car-based platforms, apparently. So that’s it then. Our SUVs are based off of Tauruses and Passats, the average car costs upwards of $30,000, and no one knows how the hell magnets work ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for you to post in the comments to save you some time. You’re welcome). The market has spoken, and the people clearly want CUVs to thrive, so maybe... just maybe... there is something to them after all.

OK. Let’s break down what it is everyone hates about these things. Yes, they are typically developed on car-based platforms, so they often share drivetrains and a vaguely similar floorpan with their low riding compatriots. Yes, they have FWD layouts, usually with some sort of ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) AWD option. And yes, they are pretty much just cars with lift kits, “rugged” plastic body cladding, just minus the bro-swag and dirt of a “real” SUV.

Image courtesy of Gearheads.org

Wait, I was supposed to defend these, wasn’t I? Uhhhh... Oh yeah, I remember now.

People like them, so shut up and deal with it.

I’m sorry. That was rude of me. Is this our first fight? I didn’t want things to happen this way. Maybe we can get some froyo later and watch a movie. No, not Pinkberry again. Damn it, I’m getting really off track this morning...

Here’s the deal; I’m one of you! Go ahead and look at my resume, it all checks out! My first five cars in order were: A !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and a ‘90 Toyota 4Runner. All of which were 4WD, spent plenty of time off road, and except for the Cherokee, all were body of frame. Hell, I once spent a night stuck in the forest with a buddy of mine trying to dig our Jeeps out of a rising creek bed as it poured rain and our Jeeps flooded. Trust me, I hated all this sissified crap just as much as you until my girlfriend got a 2008 CR-V. And then I just sort of got it.

Like many of you, I am a huge proponent of wagons and hatchbacks. I am a firm believer that a sedan is just plain inferior to its hatch equipped counterpart. The problem is that wagons kind of still hold a negative stigma from the days of the family station wagon. Even recently when trying to convince a buddy of mine to start looking at wagons and he kind of scoffed until I showed him what a modern wagon actually is. He is now the proud owner of a Subaru Outback. Do you see I’m going with this? I’ll give you a slight, subtle nudge in the right direction:

Crossovers are the new station wagon.

Think about it. Back in the day, your average car guy despised station wagons. It represented everything that was suburban functionality and function over form. These were the soccer mom cars before they were called soccer mom cars. They were the horribly un-glamorous transportation tools that made kids ask their parents to drop them off around the corner from the movie theater. They were the hand-me-downs that are now rotting away in junk yards all over the country.

You know what’s funny now, though? We look back at them with a weird fondness. Now when we drive down the street, a funky old Mercedes or Volvo wagon turns our heads more easily than your average dime a dozen Mustang or even Corvette. Maybe it’s because we’re inherently contrarians — the automotive equivalent of hipsters — or we’re just getting too used to these rose tinted glasses we’ve got on and don’t realize it. My theory though, is that it’s what our parents liked and bought. Nothing ruins something faster when you’re young than your parents liking the same thing.

(You knew this image was coming)

OK, I can already hear you screaming in your head. I hear those keys pounding away already and I know what they’re going to type out:

“But G-Rad! Crossovers are worse than wagons because they sit up high for no reason and stuff! They get worse mileage than the car equivalent and have no added space or functionality to make up for it!”

I hear you, and I agree with you. Mostly because I just spoke for you and it helps that you used my second favorite nickname, but let’s not get bogged with that. Yes, modern CUVs carry pretty much the same interior dimensions (or less) as a wagon on the same platform would. The people have spoken, though. They like the feeling of sitting up high and the perceived safety benefits of this. This is the same reason why anyone drove “true” SUVs back when things like the Explorer had more street cred. This leads me to my next point:

No one really cares about what makes an SUV a “true” SUV.

People just like the aesthetic and notion of ruggedness that comes along with them, but without the drawbacks of a bouncy, clunky ride that comes along with actual off-road capability. So now we have these glorified wagons and hatchbacks that sit up a few inches higher and have that requisite “rugged” plastic body cladding. This paved the way for these “sport crossovers” where pretty much any rugged pretenses have been dropped, and now everyone’s happy. Well, mostly everyone — which brings me to my grand finale and finally a conclusion to this questionably coherent rant....

Please, no drum roll, guys. Stop. It’s obnoxious.

Alright fine, drum roll!

People whine and complain that these things don’t exist anymore, but they aren’t laying down their hard earned dollars and buying them.

These companies don’t make these things just so you can enjoy that they exist, they make their products so that people buy them and they actually make money. The people voted with their dollars, and those votes elected unibodies and independent suspension as head honcho.

The crossover is kind of like Donald Trump. Everyone claims to hate them, but yet are somehow weirdly popular. Wait a second, guys. Have you ever seen Donald Trump in the same room as a Nissan Rogue? A CR-V? Ford Escape? Never? Something fishy is going on here... Or should I say... Reptilian?

Nah, I definitely shouldn’t say that.

Go buy a Jeep or something and stop complaining.

————————————————————

Garrett Davis is a delusional and silly man who works in IT and sometimes likes to write about cars in his spare time. Unfortunately he went missing shortly after writing this piece and no one will ever hear from him again. Stay tuned for more features written from beyond the conspiratorial grave! -Not Trump Industries

Lead image courtesy of Mercedes-Benz

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:19

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I am just reading this and nodding more and more vigorously as I go along. Well done.

JR1 > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:20

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Wait. The Jeep Grand Cherokee isn’t body on frame?

And I do love a good CUV. They are an excellent family commuter vehicle. Good on gas and great on space. I would love to own a Lincoln MKX. But then where would my fun go?

HammerheadFistpunch > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:23

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im coming back for the rest of the article, Im taking a breather to point out that the Nissan Armada and Infiniti QX aren’t the same car and don’t share a platform anymore.

deekster_caddy > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:24

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My biggest problem with CUVs is the physics of it. Higher body and larger wheels mean more expensive tires and more wear on the tires and brakes. Keeping the vehicle closer to the ground improves gas milage and the longevity of tires and brakes, making them less expensive to operate. Otherwise, the CUV is the modern wagon, without the name “wagon”.

Yes, I know some people who drive like hypermilers all the time can make the tires and brakes last just as long as a car-based vehicle, but that’s not the way most people drive.

Garrett Davis > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 12:29

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Ah, OK so they have put some effort into them. Interesting, thanks!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:30

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Not only does the Expedition still exist, but I think these seats/interior are beautiful

(OK the dash is a bit dated, but that leather!)

Garrett Davis > JR1 08/28/2015 at 12:30

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The Grand Cherokee has been unibody from the get-go, along with the Cherokee.

Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:32

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My issue is people that dont understand the financial implication of getting a CUV verses the equivalent sedan. In a world where people are (allegedly) trying to be more thrifty, the added use of the CUV many not be worth the few thousand dollars more it costs to buy one.

JR1 > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:32

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I knew the Cherokee was but I wasn’t aware the Grand Cherokee was too. Interesting.

HammerheadFistpunch > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:35

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Having owned and loved (and still miss) the original Cute ute (1996 rav4) as well having owned the barely CUV turbo lesbian* (2005 Forester XT) I can say that I get the idea of a CUV, however, I don’t agree that that these vehicles are being bought based on a “rugged” aesthetic, at least not anymore (save for the outback/forester/renegade/etc that cultivate that image) they are being bought because they are the only choice if you want:

AWD

High seating

Decent interior space

The irony is that they don’t really sit you up high enough to counteract the fact at almost all the cars on the road are taller now because they all wanted to see over the cars that that can’t see over now because they are all driving them.

The other 2 you can have, but only in small niche markets and the choices are, frankly, pathetic. It comes down to choices, and outside of CUV’s...there aren’t any. There was a time when the “rugged yet civilized” thing was still a thing, but no one really buys that anymore. Honestly no one in the world buys a CR-V thinking about off road, even a little.

*meaning no offense, only referencing its rep

HammerheadFistpunch > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:36

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Well...no, they haven’t. The Armada is based on the Titan, and the QX is just a Nissan Patrol with fancier duds.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:38

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I don’t hate CUV’s they are there to serve specific purpose. They are essentially modern day Family Trucksters. Once you accept them for what they are instead of thinking of them for what they are not they are actually pretty great machines.

Would I prefer a wagon? Yes of course but wagons are few and far between these days.

The one I’m eyeballing is the Hyundai Santa Fe XL. It has higher ground clearance than a car so it would be better in deep snow(in Alberta we get lots of this). It’s AWD(awd wagons are crazy expensive). You can tow 5000lbs (you don’t need a superduty to haul a jet ski you know). it’s reasonably fast, 290hp to push a 4100lbs CUV is plenty.

CUV’s do what they are designed for better than anything else. Deal with it! If you look at it as a tool to haul around your family 365 days a year it’s essentially perfect.

If you look at it as an SUV that is no good at being an SUV then you’d be right since it was never meant to be an SUV in the first place.

If you wan’t a real SUV get a 4runner but those are fair bit more expensive, if you will never use it as a rugged SUV anyway then why not put your pride aside and get the right tool for the job of hauling your family around.

HammerheadFistpunch > deekster_caddy 08/28/2015 at 12:38

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Im generally opposed to a wheel being larger than 16 inches unless it needs to be to clear the brakes. big wheels and tires are the biggest long term cost to a car these days. $1500 for tires? not out of the question.

Dunnik > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 12:58

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A truly noble effort, Garrett, but...

“People like them so shut up and deal with it” People like to do all sorts of stupid shit with cars - drinking and driving, illegal/dangerous mods, etc. - doesn’t mean the non-stupid have to accept it.

“They like the feeling of sitting up high and the perceived safety benefits of this.” Emphasis mine. Exactly: it’s a perceived benefit. They may feel safer. They are not. It’s much like “security theater” at airports. Man-on-the-street interviews at airports ask passengers if they feel safer because of the TSSA. Many say they do: but are they? Lots of evidence says they are not. Your feelings and false perceptions are no reason to drive an inherently unsafe car.

CUV drivers should buy wagons or - gasp! - minivans instead. The utility of the longroof is the only reason to buy them, and you can, obviously, get a longroof in a much safer and practical package (and get one with AWD, even).

And yes, we car enthusiast need to do our part too, by preaching the gospel of the wagon, and practicing what we preach.

P.S. “See Owner’s Manual For Further Information”. If you do, you will not find “further information”, merely a repetition of the above. The manufacturers dare not say the Emperor Has No Clothes.

Garrett Davis > Dunnik 08/28/2015 at 13:05

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I agree with you, mostly. CUVs still get good crash ratings, though, and of course I’m not talking about illegal or sketchy and dangerous mods or behaviors. I’m talking about your average Nissan Rogue or Ford Escape, not a crackhead driving drunk in a sketchy stanced out Civic. Let’s not get hyperbolic.

I’ll still preach the love for wagons and hatchbacks, but I’m not going to give anyone shit for driving a CR-V. It’s handy, practical, gets decent mileage, it’s safe, and for those reasons my GF loves it. Sure, I wanted her to get a wagon (I suggested a VW Sportwagen), but she likes sitting up higher and the seating position in that car gave her a terrible blindspot. Now, 7 years later, the CR-V has been like a loyal family dog. Always there for us and as practical as ever.

Bytemite > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:11

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NO G-Rad! Just no. You might get all these bandwagoners to say “I agree G-Rad, I too like CUVs even though no one else here seems to like them. Let’s be hipsters together by out-hipstering the hipsters that don’t like CUVs.” But not me!

The only points that struck home with me were the ones where you spoke for me. Good arguments, and true! I do not agree with your feeble attempt to convert us into texting-and/or doing make-up while driving, sitting up high but not even looking more than 5 feet ahead, merging at 40 mph onto the highway, corner-cutting, highway brake-riding CUV drivers.

Garrett Davis > Bytemite 08/28/2015 at 13:15

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Your texting/make up kit is already on its way, buddy! Along with a pair of standard issue horse blinders and a little piece of wood to wedge into your turn signal stalk so it always signals to the left.

Margin Of Error > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:18

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I recommended your story for FP promotion.

William Byrd > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:20

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Good article. We just reviewed the 2015 CX-5 and came away pretty impressed.

Garrett Davis > Margin Of Error 08/28/2015 at 13:21

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And it is done!

Are you a wizard? Quick, recommend me to win the lottery and see if that works too!

Thanks!

Bunty Brown > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:21

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Still not on board. My F31 mockingly thumbs it’s nose at you. Nice write up though!

BigBlock440 > deekster_caddy 08/28/2015 at 13:24

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Yes, I know some people who drive like hypermilers all the time can make the tires and brakes last just as long as a car-based vehicle, but that’s not the way most people drive.

CUVs are car-based vehicles. And they’re not really any more expensive to operate than the car they’re based on. You’re argument kind of holds true for real SUVs. Except for the parts wearing out quicker as they’re usually built heavier to last just as long, but they are more expensive when they need to be replaced. For CUV’s though, there’s not much difference. For example, the Explorer only weighs a couple hundred pounds more than the Taurus. Driving around with 2 passengers realistically isn’t going to wear your car out any quicker.

ezeolla > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:25

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Go buy a Jeep or something and stop complaining

I already have a Wrangler (BOF) and a KK Liberty (unibody but not shared with a car so according to my own definition, SUV). I have done my due diligence and can continue complaining!

Margin Of Error > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 08/28/2015 at 13:25

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You actually get a lot of car for your money with these, but unfortunately they don’t have the soul of proper wagons, but what can you do ..

Pictured : proper wagon

golfball > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:25

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The fact that not enough people bought wagons before is irrelevant now. There is literally only one gasoline manual wagon left in the U.S. and it comes in poverty-spec only. Anybody who has shopped for a manual wagon these days can attest there is certainly some pent up demand. V70Rs, S4 Avants, etc. can go for nearly double their sedan counterparts in equivalent shape.

damnthisburnershitsux > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:26

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Large and/or truck based SUVs that are still body on frame:

You forgot the Toyota Sequoia

Vin > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:27

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Macan Turbo and GLA45 prove that crossovers can be legit (even if their manufacturers don't wanna call them crossovers), but yeah; enthusiasts need to talk with their wallets or shut up.

Garrett Davis > damnthisburnershitsux 08/28/2015 at 13:27

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Nice catch!

Margin Of Error > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:28

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Twitter is very effective

Junker_CM > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:28

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My girlfriend just got a Rav4, Sure its not a true SUV but it gets great mileage, rides comfortably, and even after taxes and all those other things she got it for 2k under sticker.

crustyjoe > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:29

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I do own a CX-5... I prefer over a wagon because I live in the city and the length is fairly short compared to a lot of sedans or even “small” cars, I can get bigger stuff in the back of the CX-5 because of it’s height... even longer materials angling it the right way. That being said, the utilty part of the vehicle has been diminished by it lack of opening rear window (which I used a lot on my previous Mazda Tribute), less durable cargo materials and awkward (not flat) roof line.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:31

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If I could get a Macan S with a manual, I'd be all over it.

Garrett Davis > Margin Of Error 08/28/2015 at 13:31

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Very much appreciated, good sir

Captain_Spadaro > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:33

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Mazdas crossovers are aight.

CalBearsFan99 > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:36

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Have kids, load/unload carseats and kids 1000’s of times, and then you realize that the height is just perfect. But it’s the wife’s car, I don’t want to drive one :)

huey > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 13:36

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Wife’s loaded Journey wears 19s, and those fucking tires always run me like 1000 bucks minimum with alignment.

damnthisburnershitsux > deekster_caddy 08/28/2015 at 13:37

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As someone who just bought a 2014 Toyota Highlander and my wife already has a 2009 Lexus RX let me say you are correct, the cost to run a CUV over a similar (if Toyota made one) wagon is higher. However we both see 20 MPG driving around town and 22-24 on the highway. My ‘04 Accord V6 only did 1 MPG better around town. Concerning tires, they’re all pretty expensive now a days with even the accords running 19” tires.

So why did I switch?

1. I could not find a wagon from a brand I was comfortable going with. Toyota and Honda no longer make wagons. I looked at BMW but their reliability is horrendous, I looked at Mercedes but the GLK got turned into a CUV w/the latest iteration, plus it was not competitive on pricing. I looked at Subarus but too many blown head gaskets on prior and friend’s vehicles and an overall dislike for the boxer engine kept me away.

2. I am getting nearly the same MPG as I did in a V6 sedan, unless you’re a mainly highway driver you probably won’t notice much increase in gas cost. Going with a BOF 4runner would have dropped my numbers significantly.

3. AWD, maybe it’s not going to take me through MOAB but it will take me over snowy roads better than FWD or RWD. Again looking back to point 1 without going to a CUV there were few options that could get me there in the sedan or wagon market.

4. Most important I like being up higher than I would be in a car. Visibility is improved at street corners and on the highway. I know being up higher if anything makes me less safe but it gives a feeling of safety to be seeing over the cars.

5. I have more capability than a modern wagon. I can tow up to 5,000 lbs. I can pack it to the roof and fit my daughter’s entire dorm room of stuff in there and still carry three adults in comfort.

HammerheadFistpunch > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 08/28/2015 at 13:37

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Tow 5000 lbs, AWD, seat 7.

Not that I disagree with you, just playing devils advocate. These were pretty great utility vehicles and I think more people would buy something like this if it were available again (high capacity towing and awd are key)

CalBearsFan99 > Dunnik 08/28/2015 at 13:38

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A lot don’t have this tipover sticker anymore, supposedly because they don’t any more than regular cars do? My wife’s Edge doesn’t.

jjhats > deekster_caddy 08/28/2015 at 13:39

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my problem with them is the fact that they have less space than a wagon. go compare a golf wagon trunk to a tiguan

Margin Of Error > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 13:40

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But they drive like shit, they were basically commercial vehicles.

Dar > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:40

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“ but she likes sitting up higher ”

When did everyone suddenly become geriatrics? These are the types of things my 70 year old grandparents said when they bought, for just the two of them, a Ford Windstar back in the late 90s. Not an Exploder, not a Grand Cherokee, a Ford fucking Windstar.

Handling characteristics of CUVs are generally much worse than their car-based (or better yet, wagon-based) counterparts. I suppose people are just too busy staring at their phones to actually enjoy driving dynamics.

CobraJoe > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:41

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As a current owner of an Edge and a Volvo V50, I can see both sides of the CUV arguement.

The edge is easier to get kids in and out of, and it is roomy and you can actually see when driving amongst other tall vehicles.

But it is also sluggish, feels top heavy, and gets noticably worse gas mileage.

The Volvo V50 is smaller, harder to fit car seats into, but has about 85% of the cargo capacity and feels faster and more nimble while getting roughly 8mpg better with it’s weaker engine.

So, CUVs are for people and kid hauling (with a side of cargo space) while wagons are for fun (with a side of cargo space). I’ll usually pick the latter.

sfm5 > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:41

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Would like to offer one MAJOR reason why this gearhead went with a Q5 vs A4:

With young kids, you often need to lift and place them into their car seats. Doing so in a lower (non-CUV) car is a little bit like putting that 45-lb plate back on the lowest rung at the gym. A little unwieldy. At least at the gym you can use one hand, with kids, its two arms mandatory.

Now imagine doing the same, putting that plate back on a weight rack at torso-height. Much easier, right?

The CUV allows you to put that “weight” into its “rack” at torso height. When my kids start being able to get into a seat themselves, buckle the belt, without any assistance, I’m going back to an M5.

Eddie Brannan > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:41

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This article is so ADD, even when you’re not making jokes about it being ADD.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:43

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I hear you.

I think the issue that has kept enthusiasts from getting onboard is that so far CUVs have been handicapped by manufacturers to be vanilla-y alternatives to minivans.

Capturing enthusiasts is easy with some suspension tuning, a decent engine, good looks, (insert empty dream of a manual here) and realistic price. Extra utility and ground clearance is a reasonable thing and only an problme if you are tracking (which, in that case, one should have a sports car).

But this all comes down to the 1 car problem - most of us want (read: can afford) only that 1 car that does it all. That used to be the wagon or the hatch, now it is quickly shifting to the CUV and, frankly, many of us probably don’t want to follow the mainstream while being forced into something we consider a compromise.

EDIT: Also, this was a great article, congrats on the FP promo.

GTPWilks > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 08/28/2015 at 13:43

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Wife and I’s daily driver is a KIA Sorento which is similar to the Hyundia and to be honest I like it. Its got pretty good power (290), gets 25mpg on the highway, hauls a large roof carrier, room in back for kids, extra seats in cargo area for when I take 6 people out the lunch at work, fold down for room for dogs, can hook up a small trailer if I need to grab some stuff from Home Depot. I dont think it looks that bad and rides pretty good too. Our final vehicles choice was the Flex and the Sorento. I will say I wanted the Flex more but it cost more and didnt have the same warranty so we went with KIA. Put 30k on it so far and still happy with decision. I need to get some snow tires/wheels for it (it is AWD) so its good for winter

HammerheadFistpunch > Margin Of Error 08/28/2015 at 13:43

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to be fair, that applied to most things GM made in the late 90’s What I mean is that its possible to make a give a minivan all the traits that make CUV’s popular. I think that whole “rugged outdoorsman” vibe of the early SUV craze has come and gone, now I think its all about the big 3:

1. ride height

2. AWD

3. Space and capability (in hauling stuff)

Copperbottoms > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/28/2015 at 13:43

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Unfortunate that such an interior belongs to what is essentially a worser minivan

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 13:43

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Patrol so hot (in an ugly porn star kinda way). So much capability.

damnthisburnershitsux > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 13:44

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Yeah I had an internal argument with the bare-shirted hairy-chested man-ego that kept pulling me towards a 4runner for the rugged yet civilized look, in the end I was able to remind myself that the Highlander was a better choice given the reality of how often I drive off road.

I had no illusion that the Highlander was rugged, I chose it because it was comfortable, had decent efficiency, enough AWD to be confident in the snow, high seating, the ability to tow 5,000 lbs and plenty of space for four adults (my kid just started college) and their stuff for a weekend away when needed.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Copperbottoms 08/28/2015 at 13:44

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I dunno, I’ve never met a minivan that can tow anywhere near as much as an Expedition.

If you tow, the Expedition is a much better minivan. If you don’t tow...petition ford to bring back minivans I guess.

Eddie Brannan > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/28/2015 at 13:45

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Same interior as my Flex Limited, only mine is black perforated leather. Really nice cabin!

Margin Of Error > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 13:45

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Or this

Ernest > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 08/28/2015 at 13:46

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Garrett Davis > Eddie Brannan 08/28/2015 at 13:46

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To be fair, there are a lot of butterflys around my desk. Oooh, look!

stevethecurse > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:46

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So basically they’re the same as the guy that comes on here and posts whiny comments about the manual transmission going away and then goes and buys a Hyundai Genesis in auto with the excuse of, “well, you know...I would’ve gotten the manual, but I live in the city.” Fuck you. Buy the manual or don’t whine when it’s gone!

damnthisburnershitsux > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:47

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You definitely can be forgiven, the Sequoia really started as the V8 optioned 4runner, it has since morphed into a midway point between the 4runner and the landcruiser and I believe is also the basis of the GX. Really nice vehicles but suffering from having a price that puts them too near the GX and the landcruiser.

Justin Hughes > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:48

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Yo, G-Rad! (And what is your first favorite nickname, anyway?)

After a week with a Mazda CX-5, Josh from Right Foot Down ended up really liking it a lot - better than his loaded 2015 BMW 328i loaner, in fact.

Garrett Davis > Dar 08/28/2015 at 13:49

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One thing we forget is that many people don’t really care about driving dynamics. My girlfriend doesn’t really even like to drive, but she has to in order to get around (public transit isn’t an option for her work). She just wants to have a good view of the road, and be able to fit people and stuff comfortably.

PassionRedXC60RD > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:49

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My wife LOVES her XC60 R-design. It’s a bit cramped going on long trips, but I’ll be damned if 325hp and 36Xtorques (from 2500 rpm through redline) doesn’t yank that damn thing around pretty well. It’s red with 20’s too, so that. Safe as hell (because Volvo). MPG is where it could improve, but I work in petroleum so I don’t really care that much. Keep the industry spinning!

gomjabber > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:49

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Well done! Would I own a Subaru Legacy wagon (XT please) if they still made it? Why, yes I would, but they don’t. So I have a Outback. Boring drive but really checks a lot of boxes for me.

Garrett Davis > King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider 08/28/2015 at 13:49

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Completely agreed. Thanks!

HammerheadFistpunch > damnthisburnershitsux 08/28/2015 at 13:50

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We’ve had highlanders in my family since they first came here, they are very decent cars and its one of the most surefooted vehicles I’ve EVER driven in the snow. I wouldn’t dream of taking one places my land cruiser goes, but it does [most] everything our suburbans did better.

HammerheadFistpunch > Margin Of Error 08/28/2015 at 13:50

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now THAT was a shitbox. No offense, but boy those were scary to drive.

ramajastang > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:50

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I’m dailying a 2015 Nissan Juke Nismo 6MT right now and fuck all if it isn’t downright fun. It’s got pretty good handling, decent shifting, and it’s pretty quick once you get into boost territory. Seats are good, stereo is good, backseat is small but usable for short drives. Gas mileage us decent, I’m averaging about 32 mpg. And it saves abuse on my Mustang.

Eddie Brannan > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 08/28/2015 at 13:51

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100% agreed. This is basically all that needs to be said on the matter. No matter that they came into existence on a long evolutionary path that at one early juncture involved off-road capable vehicles, current CUVs are what the average American car buyer thinks of when they think family hauler. A generation ago they thought station wagon. Now they don’t. That’s it.

G42dog > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:51

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The higher seating position is definitely a selling point for people. Yes, it’s a perceived safety thing (with questionable impact on actual safety, given that you have to deal with a higher center of gravity), but people feel uncomfortable being low the ground in a sea of tall cars. But beyond that, there’s a comfort thing.

A CR-V or RAV4 our Outback or Forrester - well, for most average sized people, getting into one just means sliding your butt in. There’s no stooping (as there is with regular cars), and there’s no reaching up/climbing (as there is with body on frame SUVs or pickups). Just an easy horizontal slide. And more importantly, if you have kids you have to maneuver into/out of child seats, that’s also a lot easier if you don’t have to bend down to do so. Same seating position, really, as the maligned minvan, but without the “given up on life” vibe of those.

Margin Of Error > HammerheadFistpunch 08/28/2015 at 13:51

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I like them, and they came with a manual

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Margin Of Error 08/28/2015 at 13:52

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A Mazda MPV 4x4 was the most pleasantly surprised I’ve ever been by a vehicle.

HammerheadFistpunch > Margin Of Error 08/28/2015 at 13:53

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They were cool in that “quirky strange” kinda way, but they were way underpowered, tippy and generally not very reliable.

kis_ev > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:53

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I bought my wife a used 07 Lexus Rx400h with 80k miles on it to replace her old Integra that she gifted to an intern. The Lexus is essentially a raised Camry but it’s great for Home Depot runs. It fits more stuff than my Golf TDI.

Garrett Davis > damnthisburnershitsux 08/28/2015 at 13:54

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These definitely sit with the Navigator and Expedition of cars that only just barely still exist these days.

Garrett Davis > gomjabber 08/28/2015 at 13:55

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The Outback is still great, even if it has gotten huge over the years.

JohnHwang > golfball 08/28/2015 at 13:56

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all 5 buyers in the used market

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/28/2015 at 13:56

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They also have an independent rear suspension on their still-in-production separate frame, and have since 2003. Yet the Mustang got an IRS just this year...

You can guess where the money is at Ford.

Garrett Davis > Justin Hughes 08/28/2015 at 13:57

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The CX-5 is awesome. It’s probably the only crossover I wish my lady had picked over her CR-V.

Oh and my favorite nickname is Garr-FGH$#&E*R&BFCVE **TRANSMISSION LOST**

Raishi Fox > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:57

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A lot of CUVs are perfectly good cars for what they’re designed for. They’re not meant to be rock crawlers, or summer fun roadsters. They’re practical. They’re all-rounders meant to handle any ordinary situation, and just a little bit of the less ordinary ones (and a small number of them, to be at least a little fun doing it.)

Most “car people” only remember that once it’s convenient. I get constant crap for my Escape...endless “you should have bought what I bought!” and yet every time I go on any sort of road trip with friends, it’s my car they want to take. Their car is too small, or uses too much fuel, or it’s too unreliable, or too uncomfortable, or it doesn’t have x feature. Funny how only one car out of all of ours has everything they all want for a long trip...

Copperbottoms > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/28/2015 at 13:57

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Touché, always forget towing

manitou820 > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 13:59

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I love telling CUV owners “Nice wagon.” Especially those who have german CUV’s and dropped a lot of money on one.

golfball > JohnHwang 08/28/2015 at 14:00

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Maybe, but there are only 4 cars. Demand outpaces supply!

Whitesmoke > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 14:02

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Well written defense of...... Having grown up with body-on-frame 4 wheel drive vehicles with manual locking hubs and transfer case levers, I still haven’t gotten used to the idea of SUV’s, what with their push-button 4wd and floor mats and such. But, they are popular and I am not, so that shows you what I know. Good thing I am old.

Stevie Welles > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 14:02

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I’m tall and have a kid, probably 2 before long, and a 125 lb dog. I would LOVE a wagon, but the only affordable wagon, Golf Sportwagen, is too small. Therefore, CUV, eventually...

bananahammock2 > Dar 08/28/2015 at 14:03

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Agreed. I actually hate getting in a high riding vehicle. Hate. It.

GreenN_Gold > Dar 08/28/2015 at 14:03

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Sitting up higher is for visibility. It is nice. I sit down low in a sea of sheet metal. When I drive a taller vehicle I notice the better visibility, but I’m not really willing to accept all the trade offs to drive a tall vehicle. There is a small contingent that like it for the ingress/egress, but I think for the majority it is just about visibility.

ljksetrightmemorialtrophydash > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 14:05

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All the police agencies around here are now driving these:

It makes sense. They’re a better Crown Vic than a Crown Vic.

ThePriceofEggsinMalta > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 14:05

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I stopped hating CUVs when my dad retired, got rid of his pickup, and bought a CR-V. Yes, it’s bland and it’s boring to drive. Yes, it’s basically just a slightly taller AWD wagon but with a smaller trunk.

But it actually handles shitty weather really well (and my parents live in the middle of nowhere with a very long driveway, so this is actually huge in the winter), it’s easy to drive, and it’s reliable as hell.

Do I see myself buying one? No. But I no longer hate them.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Copperbottoms 08/28/2015 at 14:06

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Also, check out this. It’s got an off road status screen telling you degrees and angles in real time in the dashboard:

Oh yeah and what you won’t have to forget - your 9000 pound trailer at home

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Eddie Brannan 08/28/2015 at 14:08

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Very similar set up, I just love that leather color in the Expedition, I can’t explain it, it’s beautiful.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) 08/28/2015 at 14:09

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Yeah they just had to finally decide they wanted the Mustang to be for road racing instead of a drag strip, that’s all.

Dar > GreenN_Gold 08/28/2015 at 14:11

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I understand the visibility reasoning but as you noted, you’re not really willing to accept all the trade offs to drive the taller vehicle. That’s pretty much what I was trying to convey in my rambling incoherence.

FCT > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 08/28/2015 at 14:14

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Aka a minivan. I have nothing against CUV’s either, they are a slightly better looking, less practical minivan.

GreenN_Gold > Dar 08/28/2015 at 14:14

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I gotcha. And no, I’m not willing to accept it. My dad wasn’t either. My mom and my sister sure are, though. : )

deekster_caddy > BigBlock440 08/28/2015 at 14:14

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Sure, but the larger wheels/tires that come with the higher CUV automatically make them more expensive to replace. The higher center of gravity makes the tires wear faster. The higher overall vehicle is worse aerodynamically.

Dar > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 14:15

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Then perhaps a minivan would have been a better alternative? Maybe a Mazda5? It seems most people don’t really give two shits about driving at all and if that’s the case then why not just get the most utilitarian vehicle you can find (minivan) that checks all of the boxes (high seating position, good view of the road, able to fit people and stuff comfortably).

Darkwrangler > damnthisburnershitsux 08/28/2015 at 14:17

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This sums up my thought process quite a bit. I had a sedan, and after I bought a house I realized it would be nice to have something with a bit more cargo space, but I didn’t want a truck as my only vehicle. I wasn’t a huge fan of wagons to begin with (blasphemy I know), but one would have suited my purposes. However, as you mentioned, wagons just aren’t that common anymore and I couldn’t find one in a brand I wanted. I didn’t need a full on SUV because it’s just me tooling around in it and there were plenty of CUVs to choose from. I got the space I wanted, similar gas mileage to my sedan, I can haul quite a bit of crap (which has come in handy many times) and I do enjoy the ride height especially since mine is the perfect height for most people to get in and out of without having to climb or crouch down. I know people who don’t like them complain about how the height messes with driving dynamics but it’s not like I’m trying to autocross the thing and I have no problem taking corners...I just expect more body roll when I do, granted mine is not really that much higher than most sedans.

Dar > GreenN_Gold 08/28/2015 at 14:18

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Neither can I but yeah, mom and dad both drive SUVs. Sister’s driving a last-gen Mazda3 (per my recommendation) and bro’s driving an ‘07 Outback XT (also a recommendation of mine). I haven’t been able to convince dad that what he really needs is an Audi S8 as he’s in the geriatric mindset of “I need to sit higher” even though he’s only in his mid 60s. Painful.

d15b > Garrett Davis 08/28/2015 at 14:18

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Buy a crossover and lower it?

d15b > d15b 08/28/2015 at 14:18

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Now you have a wagon.

Dar > bananahammock2 08/28/2015 at 14:19

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I do too aside from minivans because of the lower floor. Great vehicles those minivans (and that’s coming from someone who grew up being carted around in Chrysler’s finest).