That Time We Experienced Reliability Issues With American Motorcycles- Part I

"McMike" (mcmike)
08/26/2015 at 12:00 • Filed to: McSturgis, tutu153, twowheelsbad, toadtrip

Raise your hand if this is a surprise to anyone.

As some of you know, I rode my motorcycle from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! during the first two weeks in August. It’s only now that I’m putting all the photos together, and trying to come up with some interesting parts of the trip to share. I wrote nothing down, and only have time-stamped images and a future credit card bill to freak out about sort it out.

I was terrified . Not so much for my motorcycle (that I ride 4-5K miles a year and maintain) but for the one my our riding partners brought home !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! our 4500 mile trip. His motorcycle was only five years old, but as proud as we were that it was made in America, it was made in the Milwaukee part of America.

His motorcycle appeared flawless at departure, but only time would tell.

Turns out his wasn’t the issue, it was mine.

On our first day, I stopped idling. It first exposed itself as a decel backfire, but when I came to my first stop, it quit. I would start it, and it would stall. I would kill the ignition, start it, and it would run just fine.

It wasn’t a problem yet, so we continued.

Two or three more times this would happen. Cycle the power, and it would go away. Sometimes I would do it while moving if I noticed the backfire, and it would be cured. The fifth time, it was there to stay. I had spent all day looking for the next American Idle, and now I wasn’t finding it.

The bike ran great all over the FI map, so I believed the behavior to be idle issue. I didn’t have the tools (or the information, really) to do any more about it the following morning (see below) aside from checking connectors and grounds. Off to the dealership I went.

This is as far I could get with 10 tools

The dealership nearest us didn’t have the staff to troubleshoot something like this that day, so we had no choice but to pull out a map, start making calls to dealerships on our route and hope one of them catered to walk-ins. This wasn’t going to stop us.

Wishing hotel websites had a sort by “dealership” filter.

We found one just over the border in Michigan a few hundred miles away that would take walk-ins. “We cater to travelers” they said.. So we were on our way.

When we got there that evening right before closing time, I explained to the service department that it was likey something that managed the idle part of the FI map, as it only occurred at idle and during lower RPM overrun. I told him about the aftermarket slip-on mufflers, air filter, as well as my aftermarket FI flash tuner. He said they were a retailer for that tuner, so I was relieved (as a lot of dealers won’t touch any aftermarket stuff like that) I told him I would show up the next morning after my fill of tacos and beer.

Of course, the motorcycle had been idling fine all day. It was still worth a shot.

The next morning, I woke up, praying that the bike would misbehave all the way to the dealer, but nope.. I arrived with a perfectly running motorcycle, and talked to the shop’s owner, the lead tech, and one of the other techs. I told them what I was experiencing, what I thought it was, and asked them what they thought. “You have a Power Commander III?” they asked. “Those are known for overheating, and are all getting pretty old at this point. Since you’re not thowing any CELs (yet), that’s likely what’s causing it. We’ve all ditched our PCIIIs”

I didn’t like the position I was in. I was wondering if there were any FI components that wouldn’t trigger a CEL, (idle control valve, grounds, fuel pump/filter) I was wondering what else it could be, or if there was a symptom I had forgotten about... I started thinking about my maintenance schedule, and wondered if there was anything I missed...

I think I stared at them and sighed for five seconds, but it felt like five minutes. After all this deep analytical though, I finally asked .. “How much is a new Power Commander?”

Ten minutes later, I was test driving a new Power Commander V (two better than the PCIII!) and the bike behaved just as well as it had for the last 400 miles. It was running as perfectly as it was ten minutes earlier. I thanked them for their assistance, and thanked them for selling me the part.

I had no idea if this fixed it or not, but what choice did I have? I grabbed the paperwork out the the box, left the packaging and the old PCIII, and off we went.

Things were great until we reached central Missouri eight days later. The symtoms were back. No matter how many times I cycled the power, it was here to stay. I was pissed . Either they sold me a bad PCV, or the issue is with the bike all along. The PCIII I left behind was probably just fine, and I spent that money for nothing. At this point I didn’t care. “Who needs an idle?” I thought. “I really only need it every two hours when we stop.” Fuckit.. All I could do it listen to the backfire, keep the idle up when the throttle when we were stopped, and wonder how many margaritas that $400 could have bought. I would look at it when we got home.

After 300 more miles of listening to my double-barrel gunfight on country roads, I had had enough. Somewhere in Kentucky at a fuel stop, I decided that I was going to switch back to the stock ECU, and ride for a while and see what happened.

Somewhere in Kentucky

It idled, which tells me the problem was not necessarily PC related, but perhaps something on the bike interfering with the PC.

While it was idling, it was now running the lean, EPA-friendly factory map, and I had a few parts on the bike that leaned it out even further. I wasn’t that comfortable running it that way, and was contemplating buying a stock paper air filter to restrict a little airflow.

Then the idle issue came back, and I ran the whole !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! sounding like a firing range was rapidly approaching at 17mph. Now I’m convinced it has nothing to do with the PCIII or the PCV. It was a totally stock componant that (I feel) that dealership should have done a little more troubleshooting to find instead of selling me the part.

I swapped it back to the Power Commander Deal’s Gap, and it ran fine the rest of the way home.

Once I got home, did I little more research, and cleaned my idle control valve

I have put about 200 miles on it since we got home, and it’s been idling just fine. I’m not convinced that this did the trick, since I went hundreds of miles on each ECU before it acted up.

I hope that did it. I’ll be pissed if it was, since a can of carb cleaner is $2.99. I’ll also be relieved if it is.

Intermittent issues are the worst.

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DISCUSSION (31)

bob and john > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:04

*goes into garage and pats my suzuki for being a good reliable bike* (when I dont fuck with it anyways)

McMike > bob and john
08/26/2015 at 12:14

To be honest, I think this issue could have happened with any brand. I just thought I would beat everyone to the “Harleys suck, get a real bike you redneck!” comments. The post was more about the adventure of a long road trip, and what could go wrong.

bob and john > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:15

eh. I’m not a fan of harleys. But shit happens. you fix it and move on. BFD

McMike > bob and john
08/26/2015 at 12:18

Exactly.

MonkeePuzzle > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:22

A: double-barrel gunfight is great writing

B: a little surprised if going to stock ECU was an option you didn’t do that instead of going up 2 levels of Power Commander and saving $$$.

MonkeePuzzle > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:24

Intermittant issues are the worst.

never a truer word has been said. the drive to the dealership with the car (bike in your case) working perfectly is SO painful

Master Cylinder > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:24

I always thought of Harleys as being reasonably reliable (modern ones, that is). It’s those German bikes you gotta watch out for!

Although, if I’m honest, it was a Kawasaki that had me stripping the carbs on a park bench in the middle of Oregon a few years back. These kinds of little issues can happen on any bike.

crowmolly > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:29

What does the ignition system look like on these? Any chance it could be dirty/overheating?

McMike > MonkeePuzzle
08/26/2015 at 12:32

The service department told me that since it wasn’t throwing any CELs that it was likely the aftermarket add-on. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to drive it around their parking lot for 1500 miles to prove their theory. We had to go.

It sucks being helpless like that on the road.

McMike > Master Cylinder
08/26/2015 at 12:36

Harley is still trying to move past their AMF days. Horrible, horrible era for them.

They are a lot better than they used to be, for sure. I woudn’t have bought one if they were actually as bad as everyone thinks they are.

They’re decent bikes these days, but no Suzuhonasaki, that’s for sure.

Master Cylinder > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:38

It sucks being helpless like that on the road.

Yep. That’s how I once ended up buying a $300 rear tire that wasn’t even the right size. It let me finish the trip, though, and that’s what counts in the end. I don’t miss that $300 now, but I sure as hell would have missed the ride through Idaho.

MonkeePuzzle > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:45

valid. you’d have kicked yourself silly (especially after all that searching for a dealership) if you drove off with the stock ecu set and it continued a half a state over

McMike > bob and john
08/26/2015 at 12:45

Speaking of Suzukis, I totally forgot about this one someone I saw while we were up there.

This this case, I believe “Harley” may be the smarter choice.

Kinja'd!!!

bob and john > McMike
08/26/2015 at 12:47

ohhh, a rotary zook.

yea, the only thing competing with them for oil consumtion are 2 strokes and old British bikes,.

desertdog5051 > McMike
08/26/2015 at 13:24

I know that “dealer pain”. On a trip to New Orleans a few years ago, my riding partner from Canada had a sudden, extreme backfire problem. Bike died completely on the side of I-10. It was an ‘03 Sportster. They had known ignition module problems.

Had it towed to Baton Rouge and the dealer “tested” it and found no problem.

I instructed the dealer to replace the module no matter what else they might find.

They did $350 worth of parts changing and the invoice showed that a new module was not installed.

I asked the service writer why and he said it did not need one. Later, I saw the tech on the showroom floor and asked why a module was not installed per my instructions. He said they did not have one in stock.

We made it 40 miles and it quit running again. They had to U-Haul it back to Edmonton.

End dealer rant.

Hammerdown > McMike
08/26/2015 at 13:46

So it never threw a CEL? Even during the problem? Cause that would be frustrating as hell. At least on mine it will turn the light on when it’s being unreasonable, even though the all of the different lights are usually fixed by tightening the battery cables.

McMike > Hammerdown
08/26/2015 at 13:55

The CEL post is tomorrow. :)

uofime-2 > McMike
08/27/2015 at 14:24

Are PCs “pig tails” or do they reflash the stock ECU?

McMike > uofime-2
08/27/2015 at 14:32

Oink. It lives in-between the stock ECU and the rest of harness.

Kinja'd!!!

When it was acting up, I bypassed it and plugged the bike directly into the ECU to see if the problem went away. “Rolling it back”

uofime-2 > McMike
08/27/2015 at 14:45

yeah, I was wondering about the validity of the claim that the MIL wouldn’t illuminate because of it. A pig tail would definitely make that possible.

Now questions are:

Did you get a MIL with the PC disabled and the misfire/stalling?

Does the PC have the ability to give you any diagnostic info/codes?

You would think if the IACV wasn’t opening one of them would noticed low MAP and Lean exhaust....

McMike > uofime-2
08/27/2015 at 14:56

There is no hiding from the idle/backfire issue. New PC, old PC, PC disconected. It threw no CEL at all, even when the PCs were bypassed.

I do not know anything about the PCs. (reading codes, etc..) I bought the bike with one installed, and never touched it. I have not touched this one yet, becuase I’m hoping cleaning the ICV took care of it.

It’s been two weeks and almost 250 miles, and I have not seen the issue after I cleaned the ICV.

uofime-2 > McMike
08/27/2015 at 14:59

Everything you described makes it sound like a sticky IACV is the likely culprit.

Fingers crossed!

McMike > uofime-2
08/27/2015 at 15:49

Good news is, that I’m home with my tools, and new ICVs are $35-40.

I am ready for the bike to break, which means it will act up again when we take that trip in mid-Sept.

uofime-2 > McMike
08/27/2015 at 15:52

Yep, it’s going to run like a champion until then.

How is it actuated on that bike, vacuum I assume?

McMike > uofime-2
08/27/2015 at 17:01

It’s electric.

uofime-2 > McMike
08/27/2015 at 17:15

Damnit, of course it is...

McMike > uofime-2
08/27/2015 at 17:17

When you turn the ignition on, it does through some movement (maybe a self check). I’m guessing that’s how sometimes cycling the power made it go away.

uofime-2 > McMike
08/27/2015 at 17:22

yeah, hopefully its that and not a poor connection/ground somewhere.

McMike > uofime-2
04/20/2016 at 17:02

4,000 miles later, and I have a feeling that’s exactly what it was.

uofime-2 > McMike
04/20/2016 at 17:23

Good to hear its fixed!

McMike > uofime-2
04/20/2016 at 17:27

I visited this post to grab some photos from it, and was re-reading the comments, and actually had an update.

I also bought a voltage regulator a month later.

Things have been great for months. :)