Oppo I need your opinion.

"Nymphicus Hollandicus" (nymhicus-hollandicus)
08/15/2015 at 22:41 • Filed to: None

As I have been ranting/talking/screaming/running like a headless chicken about my gas guzzling Pilot, I have been looking at more reasonable (read not huge) cars to replace it with. First off, I’m keeping it for the next few months. I’ve already had to deal with terrible dealer offers and sketchy Craigslist calls, so I’m done with that. Trouble is, my dad is so in love with all-wheel/4-wheel drive that he believes I cannot survive without it and he won’t let me look at a car without it. So that leaves me with Subaru and to a lesser degree, Jeep, since no other car can be AWD with a stick except those brands. I don’t like any of the Jeeps (except the Renegade and Patriot) and most Subarus (except older ones and the STi/WRX) seem boring to me.

I would have no problem with a FWD car, I’d just buy snow tires for the winter so there’s that. My dad tells me that it’s safer to be in an AWD with all-seasons. I see FWD cars in the snow having zero trouble. I’ve done research and as long as you don’t drive like a doofus, you’ll be okay in the snow. So do you think it’s necessary for an AWD car? Or can I get through a normal winter in the Hudson Valley with a FWD car.

TL:DR I want a FWD car but dad thinks it’s imperative to have an AWD car. Is he right? Think rationally here.

Probe GT for your time.

DISCUSSION (49)

CB > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 22:46

FWD with snows is better than AWD with all seasons when it comes to driving in the snow. Every time, guaranteed.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 22:52

You can definitely get through the Hudson valley with FWD with snows but AWD with snows would be best. Speaking from experience living a few hours west of the Valley.

twochevrons > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 22:57

AWD is all very well for getting moving in slippery conditions, but it won’t do anything to help you stop, and while getting stuck isn’t fun, hitting the car in front of you is even less so. The only thing that can help you there is more grip, which is exactly what winter tires give you.

AWD with winter tires is the best of all, of course, but I do just fine in my FWD car up here in Minnesota.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 22:58

Tires are much more important than which wheels get the power

Berang > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 22:58

I would take front wheel drive + snow tires over 4 wheel drive and all season tire any day. 4 wheel drive won’t do you a single good thing if your front wheels can’t get enough hold to steer you around corners. It’ll just push you into curbs faster. Been there, done that. Snow tires FTW.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:02

I haven’t seen a probe in a very long time.

Übel > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:05

FWD even with good all-seasons is fine in the winter, and with snows you won’t have any trouble at all, but AWD makes winter truly the most wonderful time of the year. Snow drifting is the best.

Source: Have FWD and snows, have driven on AWD in snow.

TheOnelectronic > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:05

With snow tires, even RWD is perfectly fine. Just avoid stopping on hills.

Also, there are plenty more AWD cars with stick shifts. I’d recommend the old Mitsubishi/Eagle cars, but those are probably all dead. The 3000GT’s were pretty good, and AWD. Older Audis will probably be really unreliable, but they are out there.

In my book, Subaru and Audi are the only brands that have worthwhile AWD systems. Most others are just FWD with benefits. They’re literally FWD until you get wheelspin and then the rears kick in. Most AWD cars are also really one wheel drive, since they’ve got open diffs all around. For driving in snow, that’s kind of pointless. I don’t know about the “pedestrian” subarus, but the WRX and STI have limited-slip or locking differentials at all three points (front, center, rear)

I don’t know how intractable your dad is, but you could always try presenting him with logic and facts: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3091/the…

http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-th… (summer tires)

The point to make is that a 2wd car with snow tires is perfectly capable in the snow so long as you’re not driving like a moron. And if you were driving like a moron, AWD is not going to help. AWD is only good for getting going and going faster.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > twochevrons
08/15/2015 at 23:05

The whole AWD gets you moving quicker is the only thing my dad says as to why AWD is “a necessity”

Nymphicus Hollandicus > CB
08/15/2015 at 23:06

What about if I didn’t find the need to purchase snow tires? Would you still say a FWD car is fine?

Nymphicus Hollandicus > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
08/15/2015 at 23:07

A neighbor who has since moved out had one of these, I’m 100% sure it’s the reason why I’m into cars at all.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
08/15/2015 at 23:09

Obviously, but it’s difficult to find an AWD + stick car (that isn’t a beat to hell WRX or “cheap” Audi) and my “AWD” Pilot doesn’t make much more sense anymore. Plus I don’t see the benefits of AWD with the fuel penalty and higher maintenance costs you get from it.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:09

AWD helps you take off, it does not help you stop, which is more important.

CB > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:12

No, but I would say the same thing for an AWD car. Jordan has it right. If you drive in a place that frequently gets snow, you’d be a fool to not invest in winter tires.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:14

http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-th…

http://jalopnik.com/heres-irrefuta…

Michelin did a test where they proved that front wheel drive with some tires is better than all-wheel drive without snow tires. Show him these articles to prove him wrong.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man
08/15/2015 at 23:18

I have, and he tells me I do not drive in the snow enough to justify winter tires.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:21

What part of your car it touches the ground? The tires, not the drivetrain, the tires are what transfers movement between the drivetrain and the ground. Crappy tires and all wheel drive are useless in the snow the best is all wheel drive and snow tires.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:23

I drive a Manual RWD Pickup with an LSD in Colorado year round, Im fine. Youre dad seems ignorant

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:27

But it's worth it to justify all wheel drive?

Round headlight enthusiast > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:29

I live in Buffalo, and let me tell you that an AWD car is absolutely amazing in snow. Here’s a video of my old Outback plowing through a foot of snow with ease.

That being said, stay away from old Subaru 2.5s unless they’ve had the head haskets done. If you find non-WRX subies boring, I HIGHLY recommend searching out an old H6 (3.0) Outback. More reliable, more powerful, no timing belt, and they sound like a Porsche. A little tough to find, but a good investment nevertheless.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Round headlight enthusiast
08/15/2015 at 23:32

Can’t get a manual F6 version unless I do some sort of swap, which I obviously can’t do. And I’m well aware of the EJ25 (is that what they’re called?) has a huge head gasket issue, I’ve looked at a 2003 Baja and the first good sign (until I saw the horrible cosmetic condition it was in for the price) was a new set of head gaskets.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man
08/15/2015 at 23:35

Considering I already have an AWD car (which I want to get rid of), probably not. I do drive up to the Catskills for skiing, though the roads are usually well plowed. It just sucks when your parents don’t know anything about cars so they think AWD = Invincible in the snow.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:35

Yeah, it’s a difficult search

Master Cylinder > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:35

Anything + good winter tires is better than AWD + all seasons. Just say no to crappy tires.

FWD is fine in winter. RWD can be a bit of a handful, but good tires can make all the difference. I daily drive my RWD 944 in Michigan winters with no problem because I run Blizzaks in the winter.

Plus, a set of snow tires means that you can swap on a set of nice sticky summer tires after the snow stops.

Master Cylinder > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:37

Winter tires aren’t just more effective when there’s snow on the ground. The rubber compound is formulated to grip better than summer tires or all-seasons in low temperature, as well.

Round headlight enthusiast > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:38

Honestly, I don’t see the appeal of buying a manual in a winter car. It’s gonna suck for those conditions. Granted, a manual will be more fun in summer, but hey, I drive an autobox Integra, and still love that car to death. The chassis is just so much fun that you don’t care all that much. Contrary to internet opinion, I don’t think a transmission alone can make or break a car.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Master Cylinder
08/15/2015 at 23:38

Funny thing is I have these Chinese knockoffs on my Pilot right now, though they have been decent. If I got some sort of sporty car I’d love to have high-performance summer tires on them.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Round headlight enthusiast
08/15/2015 at 23:43

It’s your opinion lol, but I just love the feeling of driving a manual.

Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:44

AWD is great and all, but you haven’t experience grip until you get some good winter tires. I have Dunlop Wintersport 3Ds. I guarentee, first snow, tires like that will make believer out of you and your father.

Master Cylinder > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:46

The first time you put actual summer tires on, it’s a revelation. Friends don’t let friends ride on all-seasons!

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Master Cylinder
08/15/2015 at 23:49

I’ve heard a lot about that, but my parents won’t think it’s worth it...

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Master Cylinder
08/15/2015 at 23:49

When I get my first sporty car I will buy whatever the best tires are, and find the nearest mountain road.

Round headlight enthusiast > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/15/2015 at 23:51

Hm. Well, have you considered buying a cheap summer RWD car, and then buying a rustbucket awd beater for winter? It’s actually fairly cheap if you just transfer the plates and insurance between the two.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Round headlight enthusiast
08/15/2015 at 23:57

Can’t do that since I go away for college.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 00:11

I live in the Toronto area and have been driving for over 20 years. Not only do I get by just fine with FWD cars and always have, I also only ever used all-season tires.

AWD is a fake-safety feature. It doesn’t help you stop or turn.

Having said that, some FWD cars are better in snow than others. Cars with narrower tires and more ground clearance tend to be a bit better.

But it should also be noted that the VW Type 1 was a great vehicle for driving in snow. All that was needed was to add an auxiliary heater as the stock heater apparently sucked.

boxrocket > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 00:18

AWD has its pros and cons, as is being pointed out. Yes, it can help with getting and keeping momentum in adverse conditions, but it adds weight and complexity, and most AWD systems have particular tolerances and maintenance that must be observed or it can lead to catastrophic failure - tires, for instance, very commonly have to be replaced as a whole set -adding to ownership costs and requiring a larger emergency fund to be kept just in case. A good set of dedicated winter tires can last several years, and allow for dedicated good-weather tires, adding time to the lifespan of both and being safer all-around.

As for manual AWD, look at a Suzuki SX4 and Kizashi (used, obviously). They’re a good size, reasonably reliable and efficient, cheap to buy because of relative obscurity, have good visibility, and actually sort of fun. Plus no Subarbro stereotyping.

I’ve been driving for quite a while, and have not yet owned an AWD/4WD vehicle, and haven’t had a problem in inclement weather, but I don’t skimp on tires, am relatively well-trained/experienced in driving in adverse conditions, and have pretty good and calm reactions. My RWD Volvo with all-seasons did just great in the 12” snowfall we got last year, though granted I stayed in others’ tracks.

Your boy, BJR > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 01:08

Just admit defeat and buy the most over the top absurd vehicle to ever exist:

Kinja'd!!!

iSureWilll > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 01:18

Is it worth $1000 to not have 1 accident due to all season tires? A fwd car with proper snow tires will accelerate well in the snow and if the tail ever comes out, mash the throttle and turn where you want to go. Since its fwd, the car will be pulled back straight. The most important part of snow tires, is their stopping ability. Awd does nothing for being able to stop in time. So spend $1000 and be much safer in the fwd option with snow tires. Or take the risk of a bad accident with hospital bills, a wrecked car, and months off of work/school setting your whole life on hold.

You tell me which is safer.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 01:29

U forgot DSM. Awd talon or eclipse. Amazing in the snow. Mine had snows but i did mess around with summer tires on it in winter too. Also the are pretty cheap and easy to make power with

NotRichBMWOwner > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 01:30

The 4wd Renegade is a blast with the 6mt. Where is the problem?

for Michigan > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 04:23

Drive type is less important than rubber when it comes to safety. Good, season-appropriate tires deliver better dry and wet traction year round than all-seasons can match. It’s that simple.

After that, it’s mostly down to personal preference.

For the record, my Civic, which gets 400-500 miles a week delivering pizzas, is running summers right now and will be getting a fresh set of winters come November-ish. Unless I replace it with one of the Outback Sports I’ve been eyeing because I despise FWD, but that’s a personal thing.

OPPOsaurus WRX > twochevrons
08/16/2015 at 09:08

This×100000000^1000000

OPPOsaurus WRX > CB
08/16/2015 at 09:09

Sat fine, if it NEEDS to be AWD than my compromise is that it NEEDS to be a WRX.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 09:24

I’ve driven my FWD Mercury Milan V6 in metro Detroit through 3 winters now.

One day I even got out of my driveway with 8 inches of unplowed snow on the road. I’ve never had snow tires. Just really good all seasons.

Where do you live that he’s so worried?

coelacanthist > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/16/2015 at 16:18

Do you make payments on the pilot? It’s hard to argue with a car that’s payed for. You are going to have to save a lot of gas to justify a car payment in a trade in situation. I would consider driving the Honda over the upcoming winter while saving up for a fun summer car.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > coelacanthist
08/16/2015 at 16:50

My car is a handmedown from my mom, I am currently saving up to perhaps get me into something more fun and efficient. I can keep it for 5 more years before it starts nickle and diming me to death but I don’t want a large car anymore.

Autofixation > Nymphicus Hollandicus
08/17/2015 at 11:33

Do it, do it! And just get the head gaskets done. Then you’ll have a badass AWD car.

Nymphicus Hollandicus > Autofixation
08/17/2015 at 11:38

The Baja I looked at? That isn’t happening.

DrScientist > twochevrons
09/23/2015 at 20:52

awd will also help in slippery turns/corners.

that said, i have three rwd cars. with snows for when its appropriate.