Oppo QOTD: What Car is a Total Sellout?

"deprecated account" (savethei4s) 06/10/2015 at 17:10 • Filed to: QUESTION OF THE DAY

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Hello Oppo! I’m interested in your opinion on this: what car is a total sellout? No, I’m not talking about a massive sales success here. What car totally abandoned its heritage/roots and sold out to the folks in corporate? I raise you two examples: the 2016 Ford GT and the current-gen Nissan Mallfinder Pathfinder.

The new FGT is, aesthetically speaking, one of my favorite cars, well, ever, but mechanically speaking, infuriating. In a single generation (albeit there have really only been three), the FGT went from a supercharged V8-powered, no-frills racecar for the road to (IMHO) a V6TT-engined softie-mobile offered exclusively with a 9(9? Really?)-speed slush box. Traction and stability control? What is this, 2015? In all seriousness, though, I’m disappointed in Ford for their choice in execution (aesthetics excepted).

The Pathfinder went from a ruggedly styled, capable off-roader to a FWD/CVT mommy-mobile that looks like someone put the last-gen in a microwave for too long.

Anyway, put your opinions in the comments: what cars are total sellouts?

Jedidiah > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:14

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All Jeeps for the same reason as the mommyfinder

SaveTheIntegras > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:14

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What once was:

What now is:

Alfalfa Romeo > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:15

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FWD Monte Carlos.

Jedidiah > Alfalfa Romeo 06/10/2015 at 17:16

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And Impalas

EDIT: Pretty much any classic name-tag GM threw on a medicre fwd platform

Stapleface-Now Hyphenated! > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:16

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I could have been awesome had they just let the guys in the Motorsport division develop me.

sony1492 > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:16

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Civics built after 1999

TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:17

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The Ford Thunderbird. Went from a Corvette competitor to a soft luxo barge. The final generation got back to the roots pretty well.

Patrick Nichols > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:18

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Ghibli (though I don’t know anyone whose bought one just speculation)

The FWD Monte Carlo

New Beetle

mcseanerson > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:18

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I don’t agree with the FGT assessment at all. The FGT is a racecar and is built like a modern racecar. It’s just evolution.

Leon711 > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:19

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did they not sell 918 of 918 Porsche 918s? is that not a total sell out?

uofime-2 > SaveTheIntegras 06/10/2015 at 17:19

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You’re forgetting about the actual successor, the new toyota 86/scion frs/subaru brz

sure they dropped if for awhile, and it cost a lot more than the the base, but it does exixt!

Party-vi > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:19

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The E36 M3 was a sellout because they got ride of the race 4-banger for a smoother and civilized I6 and they added extra doors for the family buyers. Rubbish.

Also the E46 M3 was a sellout because they added a bunch of weight an options making it heavier than the E36 and they got rid of the extra doors so only rich pricks with no kids could buy it.

And the E90 M3 was a sellout because they got rid of the traditional I6 for a V8 engine the upsets the characteristic of the car and the steering was worse .

Now the F30 M3 is a sellout because they got rid of the coupe and got rid of the awesome V8 engine...

Berang > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:19

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Honda civic.

Should only be a small hatchback. Not a big dumb 4-door sedan. That’s what the Accord is for.

I would also say something like 90% of SUVs are “lets just engineer/style some planned obsolescence, instead of make anything good/interesting” type of selling out. Oh well at least people who know nothing about cars are satisfied.

mcseanerson > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:20

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Marketing wise I’d agree. That said they do make them all at least slightly offroad capable which is more than can be said about a lot of other crossovers.

mcseanerson > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:20

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This asshole right here.

Party-vi > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:22

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I mean the Wrangler has kept removable doors, solid axles, removeable top and a two-speed transfercase since 1987, so I wouldn’t call it a sell out.

Tekamul > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:23

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

A big push down market, with a weak chassis, FF layout and substandard (for MB) parts, just to boost sales figures.

If you can, read Bob Lutz’s latest article in Road&Track. It’s painfully accurate. Luxury makers shouldn’t fight for profits through sales figures, it should be through fat margins on ridiculous luxury items.

Alfalfa Romeo > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:24

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Very true, but I certainty feel like Monte Carlo was the most agregious.

Party-vi > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:25

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Also, the GT40 was a race car. The GT is not a second gen GT40, just like the 2013 Dodge Dart is not a Fifth Generation Dodge Dart simply because they share the same name plate.

deprecated account > mcseanerson 06/10/2015 at 17:25

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So the CR-V? Or Matthew Broderick?

CRider > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:26

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The new Ford GT is less of a sellout than the 2005. The original was built to race- they only made a few road going examples for homologation reasons. The new GT is built to race, and the engine and transmission reflect that.

deprecated account > Party-vi 06/10/2015 at 17:26

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Fair point, but unlike the dart, the GT followed in the footsteps of its predecessor.

Jedidiah > Party-vi 06/10/2015 at 17:27

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It’s Jeep’s cash cow, they’re not gonna fix what isn’t broke. The lower trim levels don’t exactly have the best/strongest solid axles or transfer cases. The original Rubicon is the exception because it is remarkably similar to the Jeep every back-yard mechanic wanted to build

Everything else Jeeps sells is just trying to capitalize on the swelling CUV market

mcseanerson > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:27

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Oh man, I just realized the perfect answer.

C7 Z06

C6 was a naturally aspirated 427 cubic inch small block, only available with a manual, only available as a FRC, and weighed less than the Le Mans car because they said it was too light for the rules.

C7 is heavier than the base model, can be had as a convertible, can be had as an automatic, and is using a supercharger.

People always get mad when I hate on the C7 Z06 but if you compare it to the C6 I think my frustration should be understandable at the least.

haveacarortwoorthree > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:28

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I can’t argue the Pathfinder given that my wife loved it, we bought one for her, and I have used the four wheel drive exactly one time in 2 years (and even then, probably didn’t need to). But I will love the Ford GT no matter what they do to it (I hope Ford doesn’t take this as a challenge!).

deprecated account > mcseanerson 06/10/2015 at 17:28

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As much as I love both of them you bring up a really good point.

CRider > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:29

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All Jeeps?

Party-vi > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:29

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The YJ had a C-clip Dana 35 in the back, and yet here we are whining about axle tubes on a JK hahaha.

Also, the Grand Cherokee is still a capable SUV, hopefully they bring back a real Grand Wagoneer in a few years, but yeah the Compass, Liberty, Patriot, all attempts to get more sales on Jeeps from non-Jeep people.

T5Killer > mcseanerson 06/10/2015 at 17:30

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Right that TT 3.5 V-6 is a sucessful race car engine in eundurance racing. But OMG its V-6 OMG.

Jedidiah > CRider 06/10/2015 at 17:31

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See my reply to Party-Vi. It’s the exception

Personally, I’m not really a fan of the Wrangler, it never really got much better over time because of sheer reluctance to change it. Not to mention that they cost too much used

mcseanerson > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:31

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Both.

mcseanerson > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:32

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At the end of the day I like both but I was hoping for more of the C6 Z06 insanity. I still hold hope that they realized the hardcore racer should be the top tier and they’re saving it for last.

Party-vi > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:33

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The Dodge Dart was sold as a compact car from the Mid 60s up until 1976, just like the current Dart.

The GT and GT40 shared design and not much else - the GT40 was a balls-out racer, not a NHTSA-approved passenger vehicle. Sorry, I’m a weird one - I refuse to accept the GT as a second gen GT40, and I refuse to accept the Veyron as a Bugatti.

Sn210 > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:35

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The Honda Insight. Quirky AF with wheels skirts and a manual.

Then they made it a Prius with a Honda badge

Tekamul > Stapleface-Now Hyphenated! 06/10/2015 at 17:36

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Not really a sell out, because it wasn’t changed for sales (clearly!) It’s just a blatant misstep, a marketing department driven mistake.

Jedidiah > Party-vi 06/10/2015 at 17:37

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The axles are precisely the strength they need to be in stock form, which is annoying because the enthusiast in everyone wants the base model to the cheapest to buy and respond to modifications the best

Why do you think everyone wants to swap widetrack D44s under their YJs and CJs? Lockers and big tires break shit

It’s not neccessarliy bad, it’s just that everyone wants more and more and more strength (including me)

deprecated account > Party-vi 06/10/2015 at 17:42

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Lets just agree to disagree on this one then.

Party-vi > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 17:42

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Ok.

*crosses fingers behind back*

CRider > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:51

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Actually, the Wrangler has improved a lot over the years. The YJ, the first “Wrangler”, had leaf springs and was really just a highly evolved CJ. The TJ got coils front and rear, improving the ride and handling. The JK has improved suspension geometry, and a more comfortable ride and interior, and the option of a factory hard top. You can fit 32”s to a stock JK (The Rubicon comes with them) and 35”s without much work, making what has to be the most capable stock 4x4 you can buy today. In 2012 the Wrangler got the Pentastar V6, and better transmissions. 285 horsepower isn’t Hellcat-fast (A SRT Wrangler would be fun-take note FiatChrysler), it is a lot for a Jeep.

That must the first time “good resale value” has even been used against a car. I think real, capable 4x4s tend to have pretty good resale value, be they Wranglers or FJ Cruisers or Tacomas or Raptors.

Party-vi > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 17:53

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You can’t blame Jeep for providing bullet-proof drivetrain components when they don’t offer 33” tires from the factory on their base models. Credit where credit is due, they made the Rubicon the right way. A stock Wrangler will take you everywhere you want to go on 28” tires.

AM > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 18:01

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Subaru Legacy. Went from this fun mid-size that was decently quick and sporty:

To this bloated shit:

Jedidiah > CRider 06/10/2015 at 18:05

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The YJs’ leafs allowed for easy axle swaps. They were fat CJs essentially with light duty parts. I think the doors off a CJ7 will fit a YJ

The TJ suspension has lots of binding when lifted. And the axle shafts on the TJ Rubicons’ D44s have the same diameter as the weaker Dana 30s

Despite the the JK Rubi using larger axleshafts on its 44s, the JK has manufacturing flaws with both the axle housings/tubes as wells as the Pentastar V6 (Allegedly)

I definitely prefer the simplicity of the AMC l6 over the pentastar

Each “improvement” that has been made to the Wrangler has had trade-offs, the only things that have significantly improved are transfer cases and the interior

They’re like anything else, they have good and bad changes over the years. They do have excellent resale value and many people keep them on the road.

Both my parents TJ Rubicons are excellent off road and are easily the best off road vehicles we’ve owned out of many. They haven’t been problem free; however, the other off-roaders were so terrible that you tend to forgive the Rubicon for its flaws

LongbowMkII > SaveTheIntegras 06/10/2015 at 18:05

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nope. it was originally an econocar, it was an econocar then (the 86 is a mildly updated 70’s corolla)and it’s an econocar now.

LongbowMkII > Party-vi 06/10/2015 at 18:07

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The E30 M3 was a sellout since it didn’t have a turbo like the 2002.

LongbowMkII > mcseanerson 06/10/2015 at 18:10

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I’m so underwhelmed by the C7. it does nothing for me. I can’t explain why.

sellphones2493 > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 18:32

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Um...

Stapleface-Now Hyphenated! > Tekamul 06/10/2015 at 18:38

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Fair enough. I guess it really can’t be a sellout in its first generation.

CRider > Jedidiah 06/10/2015 at 18:49

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While the long-term reliability of the Pentastar is yet to be seen, it’s a thoroughly modern, award-winning engine. As good as the 4.0 was, it was not without issues either.

The main point is, the Wrangler has improved a lot since the YJ, you can’t deny that. Some improvements have been more significant than others, some (like dropping the 4.0 for the 3.8) were not welcome changes. But the Wrangler you can buy today is much more capable, reliable, and easier to live with than a YJ or TJ ever were. It’s faster, it’s safer, it’s quieter, it’s nicer inside, it’s more efficient, it doesn’t leak (as much), and it’s better off road. The drivetrain has improved, especially with the JK Rubi. It’s expensive, but they still can’t build enough to meet demand. When you consider the price of used TJs, it can seem like a bargain. It’s not perfect, but nobody else is even in the game. That’s why they hold their value.

T5Killer > sellphones2493 06/10/2015 at 18:52

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I agree 100%

Patrick Nichols > TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts 06/10/2015 at 18:55

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This one???

boxrocket > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 19:13

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As much as I hate to say it, the new Explorer - like the Pathfinder - went from a rugged RWD/4WD vehicle - but capable and surprisingly competitive, probably because of the XC90 base - to a miniature bus.

Likewise, the Escape went from a plucky truck-like little hoot to a Focus-based soft-roader with the fuel tank door on the wrong side, though overall the vehicle is now significantly more refined.

TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts > Patrick Nichols 06/10/2015 at 19:40

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Its not the greatest looking thing yes, BUT, it is a rwd V8 coupe/roadster again.

deprecated account > boxrocket 06/10/2015 at 19:42

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Hey, I agree completely.

Patrick Nichols > TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts 06/10/2015 at 20:34

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But corvette competitor it is not with the last models having 280 hp while the base corvette had 400. What the thunderbird was at that point was a retro luxury mustang not a corvette

TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts > Patrick Nichols 06/10/2015 at 20:37

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Yeah, sorry, you are totally right. I was just trying to say that the latest Tbird was much closer to the original. Obviously its not a Corvette killer.

mcseanerson > LongbowMkII 06/10/2015 at 21:09

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I like the base C7 alright but I don’t really see what the z06 does that the base model can’t if you add a supercharger. Adding cubic inches and lightening is harder that strapping on a supercharger.

LongbowMkII > mcseanerson 06/10/2015 at 21:13

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There’s always the C6.

Although I would prefer the C5 Z06, not afraid to admit that the C6 Z06 might be too much car for me out of the box.

mcseanerson > LongbowMkII 06/10/2015 at 21:23

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I’m right there with you man. Although when you see someone who know’s what they’re doing grab a C6 Z06 by the scruff of the neck and toss it around a banked oval autocross in the rain you are left in awe.

NJAnon > deprecated account 06/10/2015 at 22:50

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The Ford Probe. The Mercury Cougar. The Acura RSX. The cars made in the late 1970’s due to oil crisis. The Mitsubishi Galant. Just off the top of my head.

A beast mode car doesn’t always have to slot in its template in every way. The Ford GT (whenever it gets here and tested) will still be a beast and possibly be better on paper than previous versions. In that regard it isn’t selling out.; How many of you out there complain about the new Dodge Viper when IT has stuck to its template for decades and is the epitome of not selling out?

boxrocket > mcseanerson 06/10/2015 at 23:32

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Compare a C1 to anything C3 and onwards and it’s an accurate answer. No longer a comfortable touring roadster, but rather a cramped, cheaply-made, fiberglass (and now carbon fiber in places, to be fair) performance car.

boxrocket > LongbowMkII 06/10/2015 at 23:36

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You’re not alone. I’ve driven a few, and a coworker has a C7 Stingray(and several other coworkers own several C6s and a C4, and they like parking together in what we’ve dubbed the “Barbie Dream House Driveway”) and it’s massively underwhelming. Same interior bits from the impala and Silverado - better than prior years, but still an ergonomic mess and very “meh”, and it’s lost some of the “specialness” that prior corvettes had: I could be told that I was sitting on a Crude Coupe (once the corvette imagery was removed) and it would be believable.

Michael > deprecated account 06/11/2015 at 07:46

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Subaru Outback. Neat AWD wagon to bloated crossover.

Patrick Nichols > TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts 06/11/2015 at 09:43

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Fair enough and I guess we can’t blame ford for the “retro” styling when Chrysler had the PT and the Prowler and Chevy had those god awful pickup and panel shit. The only companies that did it right were Mini (initially at least), Fiat (with only the 500 not the X, L, etc.), and maybe the Ford GT and Toyota FJ. I don’t think any of the retro styled muscle cars will hold up over time (new edge mustang, challenger, camaro), nor will the new beetle, SLS, or any of the softroader jeeps.

I guess the case could be made for caterhams, G-wagons, wranglers, etc. but those really never changed their design drastically so I don’t think they count.