May's First Post-TG Car Review?

"Leon711" (leon711) 06/09/2015 at 11:36 • Filed to: 488 GTB, James May

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Here it is in all it’s glory the 488 GTB as reviewed by James May. I think he is brilliant at the Harris style format and seems confident and happy.

blacktruck18 > Leon711 06/09/2015 at 11:50

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Looks like a coffee machine, RUBBISH!

Best description of modern engines ever.

Leon711 > blacktruck18 06/09/2015 at 11:52

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He’s not wrong.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Leon711 06/09/2015 at 12:00

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Please, what do you mean by “Harris-style format?”

Leon711 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/09/2015 at 12:03

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having a laugh and a giggle, a few swears here and there, some sideways bits and on the youtube.

Party-vi > Leon711 06/09/2015 at 12:19

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Sounds like the Top Gear Style format, minus the Youtube part.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Leon711 06/09/2015 at 12:23

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Who is Harris?

MultiplaOrgasms > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/09/2015 at 12:37

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You telling me you don’t know Chris motherfucking Harris? YOU have some catching up to do.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Leon711 06/09/2015 at 13:13

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He called it the first turbocharged mid-engined V8 Ferrari... (he didn’t caveat anything such as not being limited-production, nor race-homologated, or whatever... ) We all know that James May is better, and knows better than that.

288 GTO, Evoluzione, and F40 would beg to differ, but they don’t need to beg for anything.

It is somewhat of a glaring oversight, as 488 GTB has a clear naming scheme reference to 288 GTO, albeit not a Omologato car (production homologation for racing rules), and thus reverting to the standard Gran Turismo Berlinetta coupe classification as GTB.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MultiplaOrgasms 06/09/2015 at 13:17

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Are you being excellent right now? I bet that’s not his real middle name.

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/09/2015 at 13:52

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I’d argue that the GTB part of the name has less to do with the 288 GTO and more as a reference to the 308 (as May briefly mentioned) which in hardtop/non targa form was called the 308 GTB. I hope (and somewhat expect) that the 488 convertible will be called the 488 GTS as was the case with the 308 and others. (328 was the same way, etc.)

PushToStart > Leon711 06/09/2015 at 13:52

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“Don’t be a pussy”

Lol, James May is brilliant

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/09/2015 at 14:00

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The 488 is the reference part to the 288 GTO.

GTB stands literally for Gran Turismo Berlinetta, or large/powerful touring coupe. Considering it is italian, large/powerful in italian-car context could be anything bigger or more powerful than a sub-compact Fiat 500, then or now.

GTS is similar, except substituting Spyder for the open-top variant.

GTB or GTS is not a reference to a specific model, it is a classification. MANY Ferraris of all vintages, certainly not just 308, 328, 348, or 355, have used that classification system, and even if it isn’t in their official model name, it could still be used as a classification of the vehicle’s type.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MultiplaOrgasms 06/09/2015 at 14:05

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Tell you what else I didn’t mutherfucking know until just now: that Multipla is the name of a car and not just your dumb ass not knowing how to spell. Get BACK under your bridge!

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/09/2015 at 14:25

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My understanding is that the 488 part of the name is a reference to each cylinder having a capacity of 488cc...

But yeah, my previous comment was more to say that the GTB part (and possibly a future GTS) was a general reference to Ferrari’s past naming conventions. I guess citing the 308 specifically made that less apparent :P

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/09/2015 at 15:20

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The previous naming convention was that V6s and V8s were named for their displacement rounded to the nearest deciliter (2.8 Liters -> 28, and then the third digit was the number of cylinders, so 288... 308 was 3.0L V8, 328 was 3.2L V8, 246 GTB Dino was a 2.4L V6, etc...

This is NOT a 4.8L V8 engine.

Usually, it was ONLY the narrow-angle V12s that had their per-cylinder displacement in cubic centimeters, such as the Ferrari 250-series... 250ccs per cylinder * 12 = 3.0 Liter V12, etc.

Not even the flat-12s used the per-cylinder-displacement naming scheme, and resorted to just a single digit for liter displacement, followed by the 12 designation of cylinder count for the 512BB, 512TR, and F512M.

The fact that the 488’s engine neatly rounds up (3.9L -> 3,902cc engine / 8 = 487.75ccs per cylinder) to 488 ccs is a nice generational reference to 288, the previous, and first Ferrari mid-engined Turbo V8 predecessor that didn’t wear an F-decade-series super car name plate.

488 GTB’s engine displacement is not being loudly touted in the press materials, since it is more than half a liter smaller than it’s predecessor atmospheric engine. The fact that it is twin turbocharged, and UP on horsepower compared to F458 Italia is being touted, to make sure that the narrative is in reference to *more*, not less.

I doubt many people realize that the per-cylinder displacement in the engine rounds to 488ccs, as not that many people realize that the engine is now sub-4-Liter, unless they are closely reading the specs. It may have been the impetus to suggest the name and it’s parallel to the 288 GTO to Ferrari product planners, but it isn’t the main marketing push to the public.

488 GTB bears a striking resemblance in typography and naming scheme to 288 GTO, as it has dropped the F prefix, and the surname (no longer Modena nor Italia), and returned to official inclusion of the acronym type classification, with GTB.

Marketing-wise, it is trying to refer back to the memory of 288 GTO for it’s mid-engined Turbo V8 caché, (which James May failed to mention, and tacitly ignored it’s history in that video review) and I doubt it counts too much on people recognizing the cylinder displacement figure.

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/09/2015 at 18:53

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Yes, I was aware of basically everything you just pointed out... And yes, when you type out 488 it is similar to 288, but I have serious doubts that it’s just a coincidence that a car with cylinder displacements of 488cc each just happens to be called the 488 for another, totally separate reason. Plus, the general idea of this car is not close to the same as the one behind the 288 GTO. The 288 was a very limited production car that was really only made for the purpose of racing, whereas this car is clearly their “run of the mill” model (as silly as it is to call this car something so seemingly menial). The 288 is also not a member of this car’s direct lineage, which is another point of disconnect imo. Also, you say many people won’t know that each cyl is 488cc’s... This is probably true. But I’d wager that many people also don’t know the story of the previous naming convention. As you pointed out, from a marketing standpoint it’s probably not best to go from 458 to say 398, so they needed to go up from there. By using 488, they’d still be able to allude to their previous naming scheme (deriving the name from engine displacement, be it a little less directly...) but at the same time, be able to produce a more favorable model designation for the “numbers are everything” crowd.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/09/2015 at 19:20

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288 GTO is absolutely in this car’s lineage, quite directly, and probably more specifically related than any other Ferrari production mid-engined V8 car, due to the number of specific parallels

288 GTO was a twin-turbocharged, longitudinal adaptation of the 308 GTB’s steel space frame chassis, modified from that basis to be a homologation for Group B racing.

It is not a steel-subframe and carbon fiber hybrid monocoque-chassis car like 288 Evoluzione, or later F40, which started the F-decade super car naming scheme. 288 GTO did not start that super car naming scheme, as was not as much of a chassis engineering departure from it’s production car roots as F40, and later F-decade cars were.

That is like saying Porsche 959, similarly modified for Group B, from 930 Turbo, is not in the lineage roots of 964 Turbo S, 993 AWD Turbo, and every Porsche 911 Turbo since... despite the several obvious parallels of being AWD, twin-turbocharged, rear-engined, with a flat-6. It most certainly is DIRECT lineage.

Every press material piece, even the badge on the car is typographical, and thus visually similar. even just saying 488 GTB is similar to 288 GTO, despite one number and one letter being different.

The difference you highlight about 288 GTO being a homologation car, and 488 GTB being a regular production model is SPECIFIED RIGHT IN THE NAME. That is why 488 GT B doesn’t have an O.

It is not Omologato, it is a standard B erlinetta (fixed roof coupé), and the folding roof version will be logically a Spyder, so GTS. The same reason that not all 60’s era 250 GTBs, GT California Spyders, GT Lussos, and other 250-family cars were not 250 GTOs, either, but they were familial and related to each other. The Omologato designation is the unique qualifier for being race-homologation specification, not the number, and not the Gran Turismo classification.

That is the significance of the letters in the name. The letters TELL you what the car is. It is a classification system, not just a tradition of slapping some letters on the car’s name plate badge.

As I said, the cylinder displacement has not been used as a naming scheme since the mid-70s, on V12 engines only. V8s were never named that way. None of 488’s predecessors were named that way, not even 288 GTO, which was a 2.8L V8.

Cylinder displacement naming scheme is an arcane piece of Ferrari OLD-SCHOOL trivia, and those who know it, KNOW it is only used on narrow-angle V12 cars, and not cars with other engine configurations, and only until the 1970s, which has been out of use for roughly 40 years.

288 GTO and 488 GTB share a direct model lineage, share a layout, engine configuration, and the fact that both are twin-turbocharged, a fact that they share without including the rest of the Ferrari lineup.

It is a clearer link from 488 GTB to 288 GTO in the minds of most enthusiasts, than the old, arcane naming scheme of using cylinder displacement. Even if the cylinder displacement did inform the Ferrari planners of the dual inference and coincidence of both being applicable, as I previously mentioned, that is not the inference that most customers and the public are going to make.

They are going to see the lineage link between Ferrari’s first Twin Turbo mid-engined V8, the 288 GTO, and the new successor, with the same configuration, the 488 GTB, 30-ish years later.

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/09/2015 at 20:10

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The layout of the 488 GTB and 288 GTO are similar, NOT the lineage.

Let me explain. I’ll start with the 308.

308>328>348>355>360>F430>458>488GTB. This is the standard, mid-engined, V8 family that Ferrari has been doing for some years now. The 288 GTO is NOT part of that immediate family grouping. As you say, the 288 GTO is based on the 308, we know this. Yet the 288 is more closely aligned with cars like the LaFerrari. Now before you freak out since the layout of these 2 cars is obviously very different, let me explain to you the lineage .

Yes, it is true that the 288 GTO is based on the 308 platform, however they are very different cars, which sets the 288 GTO significantly apart from the “standard mid engined V8” recipe I talked about earlier. Then, Ferrari yanked the engine from the 288, made it a little bigger through modification, and put it in an F40 (yes, I realize this might be a bit of an over-simplification, but it still stands true.) Therefore, the F40 is a successor to the 288 GTO. Then, the F50 comes along. The F50 is a N/A V12 car, which is a totally different layout, yet it’s still very obvious that the F50 is the F40 successor. Then came the Enzo, which was a more alike to the F50 in terms of layout, and also known to be the the F50’s successor. Then the LaFerrari came and replaced the Enzo. So to summarize: 288GTO>F40>F50>Enzo>LaFerrari.

That is the 288 GTO lineage. It does not lead to the 488 GTB.

The main difference between our two theories is that I’m basing my theory of lineage (direct predecessor-to-successor relationship), and you’re basing yours off of car/engine layout . And with your theory, if the 488 GTB were a successor of the 288 GTO, that would technically mean that the 488 would also be a successor of the F40, which doesn’t make much sense given the evolution of the “flagship” Ferrari models

And yes, I realize that the cylinder displacement naming convention is very unusual for a V8, but it’s much closer to what has been considered the norm (taking numbers from overall engine displacement) than it is just pulling them from another, older model, no?

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/10/2015 at 12:20

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I agree that the 288 GTO spawned the 288 Evoluzione, and the F40, and 288 is the predecessor to the F40, and it’s successors. I don’t dispute that.

But 288 GTO stands in BOTH lineage lines, and is the branch point between the steel-chassis V8 mid-engined cars, and the F-decade lineage.

288 GTO is a modification of the 308 chassis for racing, not a clean sheet chassis design, nor a clean-sheet body style redesign.

F-decade cars are clean-sheet chassis design racing cars that happen to be street legal, and that starts with F40, and perhaps the 288 Evoluzione prototypes.

There is a reason that the F-decade car naming scheme is different than the V8 car naming scheme, which 288 GTO shares with the rest of the 308 GTB/GTS/GT4 through 488 GTB production car mid-V8 line.

F40 was the first car to depart the V8 car naming scheme, because the CHASSIS was completely different, not because the engine was, and the F40’s 2.9 V8 was closer to 288 GTO’s engine than F40’s chassis resembled anything before it, and everything AFTER F40 went to a mid-engined V12 layout. F-decade cars are unique chassis, not just a modification of another platform.

288 GTO was a modification, just as 250 GTO was a modification, and 599 GTO was a modification. 599 GTO was not an F-decade model, because it was a modification of the road-car 599, it was not a clean-sheet chassis, even if the V12 engine is not all that dissimilar to the Enzo (F60) engine. 599 GTO is part of the 599 model. 250 GTO was a part of the 250 GT model family in the 1960s, and 288 GTO was a part of the mid-V8 family, between 308 and 328. GTO cars are very special cars, but they are not as uniquely constructed as F-decade cars are.

288 Evoluzione prototypes, and F40 have carbon-fiber semi-monocoque chassis construction, and although they keep a bit of the roof skin and window profile, almost NOTHING is shared with 308/328. 288 GTO is much more related to 308 and 328’s chassis and body, especially forward of the rear engine subframe. The cabin, the front end, the front half of the frame, and the over-arching body design are derived from 308 directly, and some of the 288 GTO chassis and suspension development informed the revisions to 328.

288 GTO stands at the branch point, and thus stands in BOTH lineage lines, for the V8 mid-engined cars, and as the progenitor to the F-decade super cars.

Arguably, as mentioned, with F50 and later, those super cars all went to mid-V12s and Formula-1 informed carbon fiber monocoque chassis development... they bear less resemblance and fewer parallels to 288 GTO than 488 GTB does, since 288 GTO was derived directly from 308’s steel chassis, designed originally to be a mid-engined street car chassis.

488 GTB is closer in execution and parallel traits to 288 GTO than LaFerrai (F70) is. And both cars trace back to that car, as a parent can have more than a single child.

A potential 488 GTO, Challenge Stradale, Speciale, Scuderia, or whatever they call the special edition hotter variant of the 488 model that comes down in the next year or two, inevitably, will be about as close to a 288 GTO literal re-incarnation as Ferrari is likely to do.

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/10/2015 at 13:47

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Alright, I can see what you’re saying, and I think I see where the source of our difference of opinion is coming from. I’ve drawn out a diagram and I’ll explain where I think we’re seeing things differently...

You mentioned a “branch point” between the steel-chassis V8’s and the F-decade cars. I drew an arrow in red pointing to this branch.

MY view is that this branch is a point of some (but admittedly, not total) separation between the 2 “families”. I see it as the 288 GTO was a “juiced-up” version (to put it simply and bluntly) of a 308, and this car started a whole new line of cars for Ferrari. The 288 GTO is the 308’s “ brother”, which then had a “ son ” which is the 288 Evo., which had a “son” that is the F40, and this pattern continues until we land at the LaFerrari. (illustrated)

Similarly, the 308 then had a “ son ” which is the 328, which had a “son” which is the 348, and so on, until we land at the 488 GTB. (also illustrated)

So... I will concede that the 488 GTB is related to the 288 GTO, however , it is more by way of being a distant “great-uncle” than a true predecessor or “great-grandfather” which is what I was using as the metric for the term “lineage” or “related” or what have you. As illustrated in the diagram, it appears to me that the distance between the 488 GTB and 308 is shorter/more direct than the distance between the 488 GTB and the 288 GTO, despite their similarities in physical layout. Hence, in my opinion, the 488 GTB is more closely related to the 308 than the 288 GTO.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/10/2015 at 14:59

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Well then, the descendant has bucked the atmospheric trend of many previous generations, and taken after the black sheep racer of the family, by strapping on a pair of turbochargers to a smaller-displacement engine.

Arguably, 288 and 328 are both the children if 308 GTB/GTS, since 288 and 308 don’t have a common parent. 308 GTB IS the parent, since 288 GTO was almost entirely developed from 308 in the early 80s, and was introduced 9 model years after 308 GTB. 328 is obviously the heir apparent to 308 GTB/GTS, as you show, and a year younger than 288 GTO.

308 GT4 Dino (Bertone-styling and 2+2 seating, but same transverse mid engined 3L V8 and related, but longer-wheelbase chassis structure) is the sibling to 308 GTB/GTS. That makes Mondial as the descendant of GT4, and the first cousin to 288 and 328,

Both GTB and GT4 308s are descendants of the first entry-level mid-engined “Ferrari”, and the first Ferrari-designed and built car with less than 12 cylinders, the 246 GTB Dino V6, although 246 GTB/GTS did not wear the prancing horse, nor the Ferrari script, and was referred to as a Dino for the “Make” of the car, 246 GTB or GTS being the “Model” name, due to a subordinate position to Ferrari branded cars at the time, which exclusively used 12-cylinder engines only.

308 GT4 Dino (Bertone) was introduced in 1973 along side the already established 246 GTB, and based on an extended version of the same steel chassis, and the 308 GTB/GTS was introduced in ‘75 as the 2-seat direct successor to 246 GTB/GTS. Both cars share parentage and evolutionary chassis design with 246 GTB/GTS directly.

308 GTB/GTS was the first of the V8 line to drop the “Dino” moniker, and was adopted as a full Ferrari with the script badging and the memorial (thus black) Count Francesco Baracca stallion on the Modena Yellow backdrop, and ever since, Ferrari has had a mid-engined V8 line. 308 GT4 Dino joined GTB/GTS as a fully-badged Ferrari in 1976, eliminating the differentiation of the “Dino” make from Ferrari models.

308 GTB/GTS spawned both 288 GTO in as a 1984 model through 87, as well as the 328 GTB/GTS for 1985 (through 89). 288 GTO itself spawned it’s off-shoot race-car/super-car, which would be named separately from the V8 road car line, but 288 is still itself a member of the V8 road car lineage.

Uncle (or Aunt if one prefers to use feminine reference to machines) 308 GT4 spawned Mondial in 1980, with a return to Pininfarina design, rather than Bertone, but parallel to the 2-seat V8 line, an older 4-seat first cousin to 288 and 328, so to speak. The 2+2 line didn’t continue the way the 2-seat line still does.

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/10/2015 at 15:21

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Yes, you could say that the car “bucked the trend” although it was really just forced into the change because of the pressures the manufacturers face to become more “green” and turbo’s being a solution to that issue. The 288 GTO’s turbo’d powerplant was created under different circumstances (racing) and for a different result than why the 488 GTB has a TT V8 (environmental and gov’t regulation pressures), so while in writing it seems similar, the overall reasoning behind the change/difference is like apples and oranges.

And I do agree with you about the 308 GT4 being a sibling of the 308 GTB, that makes sense to me, and I agree.

The fact is though, is that the 288 GTO didn’t replace the 308, and is thus, not a “child” or “offspring”, but a sibling like the 308 GT4.

Also, the 2+2 line sort of continues on today... Sure, there was a pause after the Mondial, but the California (and current California T) sort of serves the same purpose that the Mondial did, of being a smaller 2+2 car (aka not the bigger one like the FF, 612, 456 etc), be it now in the form of a front-engined V8 as opposed to mid-engined V8. That’s a much looser connection though, there’s really nothing saying those are really related other than just what the car was “in spirit”.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/10/2015 at 17:56

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The Ferrari model family tree, in general, from 1968-present.

The 288 GTO did directly spawn F40, but it’s development and direct derivation directly coincided with 328’s development, and was also an influence to 348 and Mondial t going to a longitudinal engine layout.

The “t” suffix on 348 tb and ts, (later reverting back to GTB and GTS) and Mondial t, referred in lower case, stands for trasversale in that case, and refers to the new transverse-gearset transaxle, where the input shaft and clutch are 90-degrees rotated from the gear set shaft orientation, which greatly shortens the length of the transaxle behind the longitudinal engine crankshaft. That was the alternative to the Berlinetta Boxer and Testarossa line using a flat-12 engine stacked above a longitudinal-gearset transaxle to minimize the length.

Due to 288 GTO development and evolution to F40, the production car V8 line was able to be redesigned from 328-348, to a 288 GTO-like longitudinal engine layout, with the then-newly developed gearbox, which still is used in the V8 mid-engined line, and the aft transaxle in California and California T, as well as transaxle-driveline Maseratis to this day, and was further developed with automated clutch and shifting mechanisms from the manual-shift version, which was first used in F355 F1.

PushToStart > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/10/2015 at 18:03

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hmmm, that diagram looks awfully similar to mine in that the 488 GTB looks to be more directly related to the 308 than the 288 GTO, and also somewhat confirms my idea relating the California and the Mondial... :P Where did you find that?

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > PushToStart 06/10/2015 at 18:22

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I made it this afternoon.

I have not disputed your assertion that 488 is directly descended from 308 GTB, I have only asserted that it is also familial to the 288 GTO as well, because 288 GTO also directly descends from 308, and 488 GTB and 288 GTO share distinct traits that 288 GTO development also infused into the V8 street car lineage (which is the reason for the arrow reference from 288 GTO back into the lineage between 328 (chassis upgraded at the same time from same 308 GTB source) and 348 (chassis revision to longitudinal engine orientation, cross-shared also with Mondial T)