Manual vs Auto debate counter-point

"PG; the scalpel wielder" (pgr34) 02/27/2015 at 06:28 • Filed to: None

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Not to spark a war. Now I love my manuals and am exposed to my daily honda 6-speed and occasionally the 6-speed in the partners mazda3. The Honda is classic super slick (snick snick), so I'm likely just spoilt. I drove an m3 a few weeks ago (e90) and I'm left with this feeling that some manual transmissions just aren't worth it. It just felt so rubbery and left me all a bit meh. I haven't driven an auto version of the same, but the feeling remains that possibly a DCT/SMG/PDK might be more fun than a rubbery loose feeling manual (after-market shifters aside). Thoughts?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 07:20

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Saying, "Not to spark a war," is a bit like not to sound offensive, but..."

samssun > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 07:25

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Honda transmissions never see more than about 150 lbs-ft, so they can use light gears, tissue paper clutches, and paper clips for springs. Very snick-snick. Anything going behind a small block is probably built to 3-4x the torque spec...heavier gears, clutch, and synchros.

That's the weight side. If you just mean side to side slop, you could have worn bushings where the shifter base meets the linkage. Mine were nylon (white plastic) which crumbled upon removal. I upgraded to bronze ones which pressed in (shifter in oven on low, bushings in freezer), tightened things right up while staying slick, and will outlast the car.

jariten1781 > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 07:32

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Yes, there are shitty manuals. Is this news?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 07:58

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I've driven three autos. A Ferrari 360 which was broken, a DB9 which had painfully slow jerky shifts and an R8 which was buttery smooth and rather excellent. It really depends on the car, although I'll continue to buy manual whenever possible.

Dsscats > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 02/27/2015 at 08:49

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But both the DB9 and Aston are automated manuals, IIRC (for sure the 360 is), and they're both legendary bad

Cé hé sin > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 02/27/2015 at 09:17

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Was the R8 the old automated manual or the new twin clutch?

Stupidru > samssun 02/27/2015 at 09:24

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My Acura TL would like to have a word about the quantification of 150lb-ft

Skater Dad > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 09:34

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I've had a good number of manual experiences, so I'll go through them in order of ownership.

1981 Honda Accord 5-speed: Easy and smooth, as a 70hp car should be. Of course, this was 15 years ago, so my memory is worthless.

1991 Toyota Celica GT 5-speed: Easy and smooth, as a 130hp car should be.

2007 Subaru WRX 5-speed: with new tranny fluid, it felt great. It was built for durability, so it could be heavy and dead feeling sometimes, but overall it was very good. Clutch was from a diesel truck, I think.

2008 Corvette Coupe 6-speed: Maybe the perfect transmission. The gear change was heavier than the WRX, but it had such a positive feeling with every change. Very mechanical and macho. The clutch was so light I thought it was broken at first. But you gradually get used to it, and it felt great. GODDAMIT WHY DID I SELL YOU!

2013 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track 6-speed: Horrible horrible horrible feeling gear shifter. Super rubbery. Clutch was grabby and difficult to modulate in 1st gear. HOWEVER: Aftermarket short shifter fixed this 100%. Essentially, getting rid of rubber and urethane bushings and replacing with metal is the solution. Why get an auto when you can fix your shift feel with $150 of parts?

2001 Miata - Perfect, of course. But again, 140hp car.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 10:05

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SMG is jalop blasphemy. So incredibly terrible.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 10:24

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As someone who owns a manual E90 M3 and loves it, I'm biased. What I do know is that it's rock solid and hardly anyone recommends upgrading it for track work. Perhaps what makes it smooth and robust at high RPM makes it a little notchy at low revs.

I do look forward to owning an S2000 or NSX some day, for what it's worth. The DCT is amazing tech, for sure, and the transmission alone is worth a second or two around my local track, but I've driven a manual my entire life and I know that I'd miss the involvement/engagement of having three pedals and a mechanical shift lever. I'm sure one day I'll own a car with a dual-clutch transmission (they're only going to get better with time), but I can't imagine a time when I won't have a traditional manual in my garage.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 10:36

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This ain't controversial. My old jetta had a 5-speed stick I described as feeling like "A cheap dowel rod in a tub of lukewarm oatmeal.

However - I still prefer the stick in that car not because of feel but because it made the car faster and much more efficient than the automatic. That's my deciding factor - if the stick makes the car better, even if it isn't the best manual, then that's what I would pick. But for the BMW, if you dislike the feel of the manual then there is no reason to pick it over the faster, more efficient automatic/dual-clutch. If you like how it feels then by all means, go with the stick.

nermal > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 10:49

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You are correct that some manuals are significantly better than others. In addition, you need to understand the character of them to have the best experience.

One thing about modern BMWs is that you need to be smooth with them. You can't go slamming the shifter into gear, it won't like that. You need to be extremely smooth and precise, and it will flow from gear to gear smoothly and precisely. Obviously your footwork needs to be the same.

By contrast, the Jeep I had wasn't smooth in any sense of the word. You just kinda had to manhandle it. Unless it was really cold. Or if you revved the engine too high. Or not high enough. It was just kinda crap all around, but was fun to try to minimize the crappiness.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Cé hé sin 02/27/2015 at 11:15

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The old one single clutch. It was an early V8 car.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Dsscats 02/27/2015 at 11:16

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The DB9 is a slushbox I think.

Viggen9er3 > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 11:28

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I'll jump on the side of autos. I love and know that manuals are great fun and feel, but reasilistically going forward, the automatics are catching up fast.

I'll use my Saab 9-3 aero as an example, it's automatic with a "tiptronic" shifter and shifter buttons. This is an automatic done right, it will allow me to go into the red before auto shifting for me in manual mode. It's super smooth booth auto and manual mode, and downshifting does indeed work properly to slow the car without breaks.

A good auto that's allows some manual play is pretty hard to pass up, especially if thinking realistically. Wife's girlfriends, friends, family can easily drive the car if I'm unavailable, and having two accessible cars to the wife is worth much more value than getting a manual for fun. Also, driving around a busy city is much more enjoyable in an auto for me.

So that's how I justify it, it's auto for the wife, and a fun manual mode for me during play time.

Manuél Ferrari > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/27/2015 at 16:31

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Also maybe the manual in the E90 he drove had been abused? A lot of bros who have never had a manual car before buy manual M3s and beat the shit out of the transmission while learning how to use it. My local BMW mechanic told me that he actually prefers buying used E46 M3s with SMG over manual just because it's so hard to find a manual that hasn't been abused. With SMG he can just replace the pump if it breaks but you have to tear the transmission apart if the synchros are toast.

As far as involvement goes you are correct. My E90 M3 with the DCT is boring as fuck unless I'm driving it hard. It's only fun when I hit the M button and drive faster than I should. The transmission comes alive when you wait until higher RPMs to shift and downshift while braking. But if you're just driving normally while commuting then it's very boring. With Manuél you can have fun just puttering around. The problem with DCT (to me) is that it makes you want to drive like an asshat at all times.

AM3R shamefully returns > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 18:01

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on the e90 m3.. What year was it?

I'll describe the E9x M3 transmission as notchy. Once you get it down it isn't hard to drive smoothly. The initial 1-2 shift does require a little effort to get down smoothly. I love the S2k transmission, but I can't imagine driving the m3 the same way I'd drive the s2k, where I'd be power shifting through all the gears like my inner hoon. Like an old Porsche, you can't just beat on the tranny, smoothness is key.

PG; the scalpel wielder > AM3R shamefully returns 02/27/2015 at 18:05

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I think it was a 2010 mode, only about 30,000 km on it. It felt rubbery to me? I understand what you mean though, I just enjoy my inner hoon haha.

AM3R shamefully returns > PG; the scalpel wielder 02/27/2015 at 18:10

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ah, some of the early 2008's had an issue with the transmission that caused some grinding.

Whenever I get the chance to drive my friends S2k, I always take it! What a lovely transmission, the car is so fun to drive. I'm not a vert guy but I may end up with one eventually.

samssun > Stupidru 02/27/2015 at 20:33

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Fine, <150 lbs-ft for the 80% of the rev range and 90% of the use. Point is, Honda can make super light transmissions because they're not going behind (or I guess beside, since they're all transaxles) small blocks, superchargers, and TT 6s.

samssun > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 02/27/2015 at 20:41

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People who start sentences with "Not to sound offensive, but..." deserve contempt for apologizing before even expressing their opinions. At least have some fun with the intentionally-offended types and put "I don't wanna sound racist or nothin, but..." in front of random statements.

samssun > Viggen9er3 02/27/2015 at 21:31

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Step 1: yell at wife

Step 2: yell at wife's girlfriends

Step 3: continue driving stick

Viggen9er3 > samssun 02/28/2015 at 03:29

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Plot twist, I actually like my wife and her friends!

samssun > Viggen9er3 02/28/2015 at 05:10

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So yell with love...?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Manuél Ferrari 02/28/2015 at 16:41

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There's a great line in this video - Lago says that you can judge how good a sports car is by how much of a jerk it makes you when you drive it. Ha!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=apjC96…

Manuél Ferrari > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/28/2015 at 17:00

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Haha so perfect

I would be a complete asshole in the new GT3

It is too fast and too PDK

I swear DCTs are the devil

They make you drive way faster

I could never have a Ferrari F12

V12 + DCT = me turning into the devil

I seriously consider selling the E90 sometimes. I don't like who I am when I drive it. I'm a way nicer driver in the 997 simply because it's manual. DCTs are simply not enjoyable unless you're driving very fast at all times.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Manuél Ferrari 02/28/2015 at 17:50

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With a car so powerful and capable, it can take a lot of restraint at times...

Manuél Ferrari > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 02/28/2015 at 18:02

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I'm hoping that I'll have that restraint by the time I'm 50

The other problem with the E90 is how stealth it is. I don't feel like anyone is looking at me, which makes me a more aggressive driver. When I drive a fancy car I'm on my best behavior because I feel like the whole world is staring at me.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Manuél Ferrari 02/28/2015 at 21:56

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Ha! Good luck with that.

Gotta love a good Q ship...