We Cant Be This Stupid?

"Groagun" (groagun) 02/11/2015 at 22:39 • Filed to: None

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Ah the 'Good OL Dayzzz!' When Merica wuz free, gas was cheap and our muscles was as big as our buts.

Many of you remember these cars, loved and love them still, as I do; but there is a time and place for everything.

The horsepower wars that started in the 50's, hyper fueled in the 60's and it's death ushered in, in the 1970's are chapters in our past worth reminiscing about fondly in our present. The problem is we are trying to relive those days again, now, today with very much the same mentality of yesterday.

Before we get too far ahead let me state that this is not a rant to further an electric, or other means of power, automotive future. Nor is this a 'piss on' petrol chemical blog.

This blog, rant, is in response to a serious set of questions raised regarding a post on Jalopnik the other day regarding HP numbers and the ever escalating power figures, HP wars, that seem to be enveloping the automotive world once again.

HP numbers of the Ferrari 488GTB

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Raphael Orlove asks, "The !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is a new Ferrari that has an engine that has a lot of power. But how much power, exactly?"

It is of course, a rhetorical question. He goes on to compare the 488GTB to other cars and to me at least, seems to point out the absurdity we seem to be getting ourselves into once again, a la the 1970's.

The 1970's, the end of an era, the beginning of the 'Malaise' period. These times were a direct result of the times before them. Nothing earth shattering about that statement and as about as profound as stating that water is wet.

What is interesting though is the study into why exactly we got the 'Malaise' period. In my estimation, the great excesses of the 50's and 60's simply caught up to us. The idea of thinking forward, beyond what was directly right in front of our faces wasn't something we did, or even sadder to say, we do today.

I understand completely the arena of competition that existed, just as it does today, between the automakers to constantly one up each other. The break down came when the 'HP wars' could no longer be maintained and the industry got out of control. At no time have I seen evidence that any of the badges self policed and decided not to do something knowing full well that the public at large had reached it's level of competence and ability. The other alarming fact was that the engineers knew full well the power they were producing was way beyond the ability of the components available to them through third party suppliers like tire manufactures.

So here we are today, some say right back in the same situation, or as I say, right on the cusp of the same situation. Component suppliers certainly are not the problem today: neither are the manufactures themselves as government regulation and the 'legal eagles' truly are the over lords of the industry. No, the problem is us!

This is a quote from:

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"Well, at some point I suspect the HP war will finally become a proper quickness war. Some cars have plenty of HP but due to weight, aerodynamics, etc, can't really go anywhere quick. Give me a car that can do 0-60 in under 3 seconds and can do the quarter mile in under 11 seconds and it doesn't really matter how much hp it has."

Well Freak, I take your point but in this very statement you exemplify the problem with 'us'. Yes as Jalops we all want cars to go 0-60 in < 3.0 and the quarter mile in 11.0 and under. Today, with the way in which we build cars, the only way to achieve such numbers is through big HP.

The weight issue is right in your statement. The other amusing little 'tid bit' is the 'Cant go anywhere quick." I think you are referring to the fact that really, legally and ethically, going that fast on public roads is, I'm now happy to say even in the Jalop crowd, a no no.

Quickness on the other hand is an interesting angle to take. I agree totally.

Back to the real problem though: As a whole, we are terrible drivers. Have you ever asked yourself why A pillars on modern cars and trucks are now a foot thick? It's because too many people keep flipping their cars over, landing on their roofs and getting their heads crushed in. Why are people flipping their cars so often? It's because we suck at driving!

You and I as enthusiasts may be better than the average Joe but, there are so many average Joes out their on our road infrastructure now that it really doesn't matter. Accidents will happen but the frequency and sheer lunacy in number and cause and effect are mind boggling.

Simply put, the average driver is no where near skilled enough to handle the power and ability modern cars poses and yet any idiot who can make the payments can drive a car with 600-700 HP on the very same roads as you and I.

That may be the right that every American and citizen of a free country should have but in reality shouldn't exercise. The excess today while enabled by the auto manufacturers, really is being played out by the likes of you, I and the idiots on the roads with us.

The end of this period may be coming to an end for reasons other than any oil crisis. The sheer number of cars on the road, the skill level, or lack there of for most drivers and really, the expense of purchasing, maintaining and insuring suck objects of desire can almost be assuredly the end of the new HP wars.

I hope we get smarter and get even better cars, no make that transportation solutions for the future. That sounds very ominous and dispassionate but truth be told, even for enthusiasts like you and I, %95+ of our driving isn't for pleasure, it's commuting to work and back.

CB > Groagun 02/11/2015 at 22:42

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I think we need to make less of a push for power and more for efficiency. That way you can hoon for longer for cheaper.

For Sweden > Groagun 02/11/2015 at 22:46

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The current horsepower wars aren't nearly as dirty as the past horsepower wars, when a top-line muscle car might make 8 mpg. The Hellcat makes 22 mpg. It wasn't so long ago that 22 mpg was decent for any car.

ly2v8-Brian > For Sweden 02/11/2015 at 22:52

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True, but what about muh copious consumption?

Groagun > CB 02/11/2015 at 22:52

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Totally agree and it seems that battery augmentation and hybrid power seem to be getting acceptance in the performance crowd for it's power additive attributes.

Groagun > For Sweden 02/11/2015 at 22:53

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Yes, but as I stated, this has nothing to do with MPG's.

For Sweden > ly2v8-Brian 02/11/2015 at 22:59

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Drive 2 Hellcats

Jedidiah > Groagun 02/11/2015 at 23:03

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They need a course like the MSF safety course except for cars that will give you a small reduction for insurance.

That way people will have incentive to learn proper driving techniques and help keeps people safe without being mandatory.

ly2v8-Brian > For Sweden 02/11/2015 at 23:05

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Nah, ill just roll coal with a cummins ram covered in dumb white trash stickers.

For Sweden > ly2v8-Brian 02/11/2015 at 23:08

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Put some tiny wheels and hydraulics on it to really ruin the drive ratio and weight.

ly2v8-Brian > For Sweden 02/11/2015 at 23:10

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With those stretched out tires that stance guys use. This could possibly be the most visually offensive (to car guys) vehicle in the world.

Groagun > Jedidiah 02/11/2015 at 23:12

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Better training I totally agree but would Americans go for a standardized National testing system and licensing education process like Germany has? Or do we get right back to States Rights issues?

Birddog > Groagun 02/11/2015 at 23:14

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I think I see where you're going here.

I grew up in the tail of the Malaise era.

The Malaise era was a result of Knee Jerk Government regulations that the technology of the time couldn't keep up with. AND.. Pressure from Insurance lobbiyists. Not excesses of the 50s and 60s (the Malaise era started around 1972-3).

We're in a whole different world today.

The cheapest economy car on the USDM right now is safer and better performing than the biggest and best of 1973.

I don't doubt a future "Malaise" but it won't be for the same reasons.

crowmolly > Groagun 02/11/2015 at 23:17

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One thing you didn't touch on were insurance rates.

That killed the muscle car too. There were insurance surcharges creeping up in 1970 (IIRC) and that helped curb the thirst for power too. Yenko did not build S/C Novas past 1969 for this reason- he figured they would be completely uninsurable.

I can see this coming back to a degree. You are still going to find guys with deep pockets who want to pay. But the insurance companies may move in with another rate hike.

GhostZ > For Sweden 02/11/2015 at 23:44

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It's the same reason why the R32 GT-R, Porsche 959, Lancer Evo, and Audi Quattro blew everyone's mind when they came out. 700HP out of a 6.2l supercharged engine isn't that impressive. Hell, 700HP out of a 6.2l naturally aspirated engine isn't that impressive. It's figuring out the engineering of making it cheap and efficient. Same thing with making an AWD sports car handle quickly on all sorts of terrain while also lapping a track quickly.

Back then, in the 60s, 600 crank HP out of a 427ci / 426ci engine was very impressive. It was about pushing the envelope performance-wise of what an engine driven on the street was capable of. The Elephant Hemi and SOHC Cammer engines, sort of the pinnacle of the HP wars, really were basically race car engines not expected to last 50,000 miles without major repairs. Nowaday's modern sports car engines aren't at the limit of what's safely possible.

And it can't be done again because we know the safety compromises involved in making cars go that fast, back then it just simply wasn't well understood.

If a car manufacturer used all the technology we had today to build a car equivalent to what the Superbird was to the other cars at the time, it would have roughly ~1500HP. We're talking a twincharged ~5-6l engine at about 2 bar of boost using a titanium engine block with camless heads, in a 3500lb car with minimal to no safety equipment. That's about the limit of what a private owner can have built (see: Larry Larson) but using technology that makes it more reliable and effective.

Honestly, the One:1 is the closest thing to that sort of insane marginal performance. And they still aren't using titanium engine components or camless heads! There are always technologies at the limit like this that manufacturers aren't ready to touch.

Jedidiah > Groagun 02/12/2015 at 00:08

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The MSF is an international 3rd party group concerning with motorcycle safety, so I don't see how this is a states' rights issue.

The course is not required by law, but insurance companies favor those who have been educated by it because they are safer on the road.

The licenses are then issued like normally—taking the course doesn't get you a special liscense. It doesn't seem to infringe on any state rights issues and has no government meddling that I'm aware of.

The reduction in insurance rates is what interests people to take the course and it makes everyone safer without government bs.

If there was an organization concerned with safe and proper driving techniques like the MSF that offered classes for automobiles, roads will be a safer place. It would only require the course to be widely by insurance companies and have a independant group dedicated to safety research teaching the class.

Freakusaurus-Rex > Groagun 02/12/2015 at 17:33

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You read into my comment a little wrong... When I said that some cars with lots of HP. can't go anywhere quick, I was talking about just that... QUICKNESS... Some cars with very large HP numbers still do 0-60 in 5 seconds or quarter miles in 13 seconds... Yet some cars with less HP are faster. (comparable cars) .... 0-60 is very usable on the streets. 200+mph is not and I don't judge any car by it's unusable top speed. A car that can get me from 0-60 really quickly can be useful... on the streets or on a track. Lots of tracks don't even have a straight away long enough to hit super cars top speeds... but getting back up to speed after a turn or whatever is very useful.

When I say I want a car that can do 0-60 in under 3 seconds and quarter miles in under 11 seconds, I fully expect those cars to be well out of my price range costing a half million and up, except the Corvette. These cars are not usually used for normally daily commutes to work. If you want to drive a Hyundai to work, I don't expect it to be fast... Just safe and comfortable.

Also, I don't think your thoughts will dictate what we as people should drive and what companies will make. EXTREAMLY expensive cars are selling better than ever. When I was growing up, $200,000 for an F40 was very very very expensive. Now that is barely an entry level exotic. The cars we only dream about are selling better than ever. If someone put out a $10million dollar, limited run, 2000hp car tomorrow, they would be sold out before the first one was built. And people that buy $100,000 and up cars don't care about insurance and gas cost. I live in Louisiana where our insurance is higher than anywhere else and there are plenty of exotics here in New Orleans. I could have bought a car cheaper on insurance, but I wasn't going to..

Groagun > Freakusaurus-Rex 02/12/2015 at 21:24

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Agreed once again, but again I ask, how do we get that quickness? With cars weighing 3500-5000 Lbs, even though some attempts at weight reduction are happening, how do we achieve that quickness? And in turn, does the pursuit of quickness still result in the unskilled driver making our roads unsafe?

The number of expensive cars vs the number of people who can afford them today is a very interesting question. It's a question unfortunately that I think belongs more in an economic and social construct blog that most on OPPO and Jalop simply don't care about.

You are totally right, there are more people than ever who have the means to purchase a super car. Per Capita numbers of wealthy individuals have more than doubled in the last 30 years. That normally is a great thing for any society and an economy at large. The debate over the real effect and the growing difference in income (in)equality is another debate and one for a different blog but it does have a bearing on what we are discussing.

As for the people with the means to purchase such cars not caring about insurance rates and fuel prices you are spot on again. Does this not pose a problem for you though? Really what this says is that if wealthy enough, fuck you and everyone else, the rules don't apply to me and I live in a different system. Has America become that Two tiered class based country that it once fought a revolutionary war over to stand independent and to cast off the class system of society?

Big questions need big thought before big answers.

Freakusaurus-Rex > Groagun 02/13/2015 at 19:28

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The part about the number of expensive cars on the road are directly proportionate to our conversation since I would expect to not be able to afford a STOCK 11 second car myself. A lot of people that visit this site NEVER see these cars. They live in areas that just don't have a lot of LaFerraris, P1s, 918s . . . . We see these cars in crashes at this website because people report them.. No one reports when a Grand am hits a Corolla. . . The bad drivers are already terrorizing the streets with 200hp cars . . While a 2000hp car would make matters worse, I don't see the average people carrier getting massive HP anytime soon. Vettes, Hell Cats, ZL1s....... a lot of people just can't afford that kind of power.

It's not that the rich don't care about US.... It's that they can afford the insurance because to them it is just pocket change.... Think of it like this... if you pay about 5% of your monthly income on insurance and it is affordable to you, If someone makes 10 times more than you, and there insurance is way more than yours, but it's still only 5% of there monthly income, it's still the same thing..... You buy a house that cost what... 4 times more than your yearly pay... $200k house for a $50k income .... then it makes sense that a person that makes a million a year lives in a 4 million dollar home... same goes for the cars..

Society is way to seperate.. I am mad that I work my ass off and can't afford the things I want... but I do indeed buy the things I can afford.... Why class inequality a problem if I live within my means even if my means aren't much ?

Groagun > Freakusaurus-Rex 02/14/2015 at 06:23

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Hmmm, that just makes you sensible: good on you. The inequality debate is a much larger discussion and like I said, it's perhaps a debate for another time and place.

Groagun > Freakusaurus-Rex 02/14/2015 at 06:26

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By the way, I'm mad no one seem to mention my MS Paint art work in the picture: Did you get the Red White and Blue motif? My automotive homage to the American flag.

Freakusaurus-Rex > Groagun 02/14/2015 at 15:45

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I didn't even notice the red white and blue cause I was drolling over the cars... That is one of those easter eggs you find in a movie after you have already owned the DVD for 5 years.

Groagun > Freakusaurus-Rex 02/14/2015 at 17:05

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Haha

camaroboy68ss > crowmolly 02/27/2015 at 23:39

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well Yenko pretty much closed up shop after 69, no more Camaros and Chevelles. The Nova did live on for 70 with the LT1 out the Corvette. Another factor for not carrying over the SC Nova into 70 was because Yenko still had to the conversions to the Novas in 69. Chevy wouldn't use the COPO program like with the Camaro and Chevelle. The 70 Yenko Deuce was a COPO ordered car so Yenko cut costs and inventory for having extra motors lying around.