Ack, the silliness!

"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei)
02/05/2015 at 10:10 • Filed to: None

This is an SVT Raptor. This is what happens when you treat it like a Bro Trophy Truck. If you want to have a better time off-roading, buy a Jeep XJ or YJ/TJ, and do it up right. You don't buy a $37K Raptor (...Tavarish...) to treat it like a Trophy Truck (and if you do, you also have the money to get a proper Trophy Truck frame built for an old 1/2-ton, which you will feel less worse about when you inevitably crash it).

DISCUSSION (54)

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:13

Why is it bent that way? If it's from jumps, wouldn't it be bend the other way?

Rico > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:16

Wasn't this a big deal about a year ago with tons of people bending their frames?

Übel > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:19

How is a Jeep at all an alternative to a Raptor?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:20

Or you just don't take a jump at 90mph and instead use it as a trail runner at 30-50 like it's intended to be......It really is very well setup for low to mid speed running. It isn't a crawler and it isn't a trophy truck but it makes an exceptional off road tourer and is great at doing 45-55mph on rough terrain for long periods of time.

aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest.
02/05/2015 at 10:20

No because its the force of the landing that bends it. What happens is when it has a normal landing the shocks take the abuse and absorb the shock (hence the name shock absorber)

but in this case the shocks couldn't handle the load and the force was distributed through the frame and bent the weakest point upwards

Think of slicing wood with a axe but in this case it would be upside down

themoreyouknow.jpeg

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:20

Bro, BRO! You gotta check out my new truck, yo! It's like a real life trophy truck, bro! Let's do some jumps... Oh shit, that's covered under warranty, right bro? Bro?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Rico
02/05/2015 at 10:21

Yes. People would go down trails they hadn't even seen before let alone done a low speed "course walk" if you will and they would smack jumps at near triple digit speeds. his unsettles the truck badly and it makes the truck land all kinds of wrong. Thus, the frames were bending, the suspensions were breaking, and people were wondering why.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest.
02/05/2015 at 10:23

From Jamal Hameedi: "Basically, the core – the root cause – is that the vehicle is traveling too fast for the obstacle, and the truck is running out of travel. By a large margin. They're going too fast for the obstacle by a large margin. The frame is not the first item to yield in that condition – despite what's been theorized, the first thing when you do exceed the vehicle's travel capability [is that] you have a certain safety zone where you will hit the bump stop and nothing will happen. If you hit that same obstacle at an even faster speed, then you will yield the jounce bumper cup – that's the little piece of steel that holds the jounce bumper. If you hit that same obstacle at an even greater speed, then the next thing to go is the frame."

So since you have suspension damage, and the energy is travelling up the rear suspension components, (of which the shocks are canted forward), the energy will be travelling up and forward until it finds a weak point in the frame, which is near the joint of the box and the cab, hence it looks like it was bent the wrong way.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:24

Wat. The frames getting bent had everything to do with people putting aftermarket springs on and trying to drive over a railroad trestle, denying their suspensions travel. There was a whole article on Oppo on this that went deep into nitty-gritty investigative journalism. Out of the box, a Raptor is better offroad *fast* than a Jeep, and the Jeep crawls and muds better.

Aaron James > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest.
02/05/2015 at 10:24

I believe the frame cracks from jumping and so forth and they end up bent like this because as you apply power to travel forward the axle wants to move forward, with a solid frame the truck simply moves forward. With a cracked frame the rear axle (tires) folds the truck up like that.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:27

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-truth-abou…

Did we miss this?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Aaron James
02/05/2015 at 10:28

Nope, not a cracks issue, the frame getting outright bent under impact.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Übel
02/05/2015 at 10:29

Smaller trails require smaller vehicles or a large amount of obstacle clearing equipment.

An F-150 is pretty damn large for an off-roader (as well as pretty damn large, period). Works fine on trails with a large loading gauge (air space around the trail), but anything with restricted clearances means it will have a tougher time dealing with that.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/05/2015 at 10:31

So long as you aren't surmounting large obstacles, yes.

My conception of an off-roader would be more along the lines of a 4Runner/Landy/Jeep XJ. But that's because I have different goals in mind, and don't live in the Desert Southwest.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 10:33

Yes, and you don't live in the desert, so it's of far less use to you as a runner.

Also, you wouldn't dare spend $37K on a Raptor to do that off-road. You'd get the Jeep/Landie and build it to your specifications.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 10:37

No. And congratulations on *completely missing the point*.

The whole thing is that you wouldn't buy a $37K truck and just trash it offroad like a loony. Especially if, as Tavarish was claiming, that you would buy the Raptor as compared to a new F-150 (non-Raptor).

Unless you live in Inland SoCal, AZ, NV, UT, or NM, you aren't going to buy something that's less useful to you than a bog-standard F-150, which is better at being a damn normal truck.

Sure it's not as *cool*, but *cool* doesn't count for crap if it can't act in the stead of a normal F-150 for what most people are going to use it for (which is towing an RV or a boat, or carrying things back from Home Depot, hampered by the shorter box on it. Fine for off-roading, but not fine for carrying 8 foot lengths of wood and assorted deuterius from Big Orange)

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:38

If you're buying a *new* vehicle to run offroad, you do it with the knowledge that some things will get broken. The Jeep and Landie are useful for grumbling through the woods, up hill, over dale, through the trees, and over rocks. The Raptor is useful for running desert trails at an unholy rate of speed. Trying to either build the Raptor into a crawler or a Jeep or Landie into a high-speed trail blaster is an exercise in inefficient shoehorning. It's a completely different type and class of offroad vehicle - not even an apples and *kumquats* comparison. In the southeast, a Raptor is mostly useless, in the southwest a Raptor is buckets of fun. Fun which definitely can be enjoyed without worry at that entry price.

ColoradoTaco > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:39

Who cares what other's do and how they use their trucks?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:40

Right - it's a heavy truck so if you leave it mostly stock you can't do the high speed jumps that a lightened and heavily modified tacoma can. Your shocks are trying to control what? 5000+ lbs? Baja trucks are 3000-4000 if I recall and they have more travel. You're not doing the baja 1000 flat out in a stock raptor.......But at the same time you can do the whole trip and even wind the motor out on the dirt for a while so long as you know when to back down.

I take it you're more of a rock crawler/obstacle trail kind of driver?

Rico > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/05/2015 at 10:41

Which is not surprising, as "rugged" as this vehicle is it does have some limitations. I'd only take the most beat of off roading vehicles, off road. Not a new raptor or a new RR, even if the pamphlet says it can handle it.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 10:41

You would also feel less worse about crashing a $5K 30 year old pickup that you retrofitted $5-10K of desert runner gear on than a $37K Raptor which can do it out of the box.

This same rationale is the reason I have a $2500 Audi to do track days with (and will eventually get around to upgrading). Could I buy a 1-2 year old CPO B8 S4 and do the same thing? Yes, and it would likely be a lot better. However, if I stuff a B5, I scrap it and walk away. If I stuff a B8, I'm likely looking at finding some way to pay a bank back for the money I borrowed.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Rico
02/05/2015 at 10:41

I'd totally take a new raptor trail running, but I just wouldn't be an idiot about it.

450X_FTW > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest.
02/05/2015 at 10:44

My guess is when the truck got airborne the rear axle rebounded hard enough to bend the frame in the way it did.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:44

You *could* buy a $37k truck and fail to trash it offroad, by driving as merely one step removed from a loony, and with much better piece of mind that if one was taking a normal F150 offroad. The tip-over for use vs. a normal F-150 would be just how much the variance actually hurt. If you still *can* do most or all the things you would normally do, and you have the intent and opportunity to hoon on trails, the slight extra inconvenience the rest of the time *will* be worth it to some people.
"But you can't actually use it as a real trophy truck!" is approximately the most rehashed thing ever. No. But you can get 80% of the way there, and engage in more ordinary trail hooning so much better and more securely than a normal F-150 that it's not even funny. An ordinary person, even in *very* exuberant misuse, will not bend a frame, and that's the point of the article.

Does this mean it's a sane thing for 98% of people to buy? Ha, no.

Übel > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:45

A Jeep is also ridiculously slow and is used for a completely different type of offroading. Also, a Ranger is just a much nicer vehicle for daily use.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > ColoradoTaco
02/05/2015 at 10:46

I just find Tavarish's setup an exercise in silliness. You buy the Raptor because you want a desert runner, not because it's cheaper than a new F-150 (because you will compromise some capability in preference of other capability).

Otherwise, if you were considering a new F-150, one could make the point that you save a similar amount of money buying a used, non-Raptor F-150, and get almost the same capability setup as the new one.

And if you want a desert runner toy, then why not get a truck that you are OK with walking away from if you crash it? i.e. buy an old pickup, and upgrade it. If you crash it, then fine. You aren't putting out a ton of money.

$37K is a lot to walk away from, especially something being used for fun.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:49

This rolls us back around to the built-not-bought issue. Some people are just better suited by bought and not built. Fin. You would be better suited by built, and so would many people - doesn't mean bought is wrong, particularly when the premium over a normal F-150 for something that gets used a large part of the time like a normal F-150 isn't that crushing. It's about that percent of the time - they prefer to drive a brand new truck when not hooning over one 30 years old converted to prerunner duty. If you break it down more toward $10k total of desert runner gear and desert truck + $27k almost-new truck, vs. $37k single truck, the comparison's a bit clearer. Some people can afford the risks and inconveniences of doing it all with one truck.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/05/2015 at 10:50

I prefer that. If I ever start doing off-roading in lieu of track days, I'll likely pick up an old Jeep or Landie (or maybe a 4Runner), and start with that.

The Raptor that Tavarish was linking to was $37K. I don't think spending $37K on something you know will get damaged is a smart thing to do.

Heck, I wouldn't even start with a new Jeep/Landie/4Runner. For my fun cars, if they are going on the track or trail, I want to have the security that if the worst happens, I can *walk away* from it and not take an enormous hit.

TillTheWheelsFallOff: Brocoma > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:50

I completely agree. While I drive my truck on tight CO trails often, I'd argue my Tacoma is almost the absolute limit (maybe a LC is wider) when it comes to size/length. The Raptor is just too wide, large to get a complete wheeling experience. I'm sure it fits in Moab or maybe even Rubicon, but up here I cannot imagine what it takes to fit that big boy between trees, if their owners even try.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 10:52

If they want to throw that kind of money at something like that, that is their business. However, putting a Raptor as an alternative to a new F-150 is a bit, as you put it, an "Apples and Kumquats" comparison".

Nibbles > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:52

I'm just gonna buy a $37k Raptor and drive it around the neighborhood

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW
02/05/2015 at 10:53

Nope. Just a case of the impact trauma being directed to a point forward of the axle. These trucks can take a bigger impact than that *if* the suspension has enough room for travel. These were bottoming out against the shocks and bump stops.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Nibbles
02/05/2015 at 10:54

Fine by me, mate. It works great as a on-road posing strap.

#NotThatTheresAnythingWrongWithThat

#NotMoreThanAnyEuropeanSportsCar

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:56

...but less so than Rover to Raptor. Also, I should point out that Raptor repairs are not Audi repairs. Cartoonishly much cheaper.

ColoradoTaco > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:57

I stand by what I said. Not everyone who buys a Raptor is looking to go desert running or even off road for that matter. They want a big, loud truck from the factory that already has functional, warrantied mods. Sure, the Raptor has a lesser payload and towing capacity than even a regular F150 , but 90% of all trucks never tow anything and have little more than the occasional ski or camping trip in the bed anyway. So who cares if someone else buys a Raptor, jumps it over some rr tracks and bends the frame? Doesn't bother me at all. You don't want to bend the frame of YOUR truck? Then don't jump it off anything. My brother's Raptor has been more than capable on all the trails we've been on here in CO, all while having all the perks of some larger money cars in the cab and then some. Plus the 6.2 sounds awesome.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 10:59

Oh for sure if it was my first off-roader for that sort of thing I'd get an old colorado/canyon or tacoma and throw 5k at most on some suspension and wheels/tires and leave the engin stock to start. Maybe a skidplate and beefier cooling. 80% of raptors are sold for image but they'd make a nice "one car" if you lived in arizona or something. I live downtown in a medium sized city so......yeah......fiesta ST for me. I don't think I've ever seen someone dumb enough to bring a brodozer or something similar down here.

Actually for trail running and jumping, I want a baja bug. But mine would have old porsche 911 power, and a full interior with sound deadening.

450X_FTW > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 11:03

If that is true and it is due to impact going upward, when did the bed separate at the top from the cab and not at the bottom?

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > ColoradoTaco
02/05/2015 at 11:09

The one in question had the 5.4L. Which does change the calculus on that.

If someone wants a big, bright red posing strap of a truck (No more so than any European sports car) that they can use on-road, that's fine (And most people who bought them bought them for that reason). But my objection is that in the vein of the Tavarish "Why buy X when you can buy Y for less?" that there are better Ys out there to fit his scenario.

If you want a truck to use on-road that is less expensive than a new F-150, there are better options than a $37K Raptor. That doesn't make the Raptor *wrong*, but it does have different priorities in mind than a standard build.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW
02/05/2015 at 11:14

You're thinking of the truck as a beam supported at two points by the axles, so that any impacts at the axles would tend to bend the frame into more of a U. It seems counterintuitive that it would bend the other way, but that's because the intuitive understanding of what is supported where and how is wrong. Here's the simple understanding (I've used ' as a load visualization):

—0—-''''''—0——
Supported at two points, with load concentrated in the middle - impact at either of the two points will bend the frame. Here's a better understanding:

''' 0——'''^^0^-''''

The rear axle is supported at more or less three points, two of which are forward of its centerline. The back end of the truck has a lot of inertia due to being like a lever - it *can't* just bounce up to allow the frame to U-bend like you imagine - when the impact is that hard, sharp, and sudden. The front axle has already bounced the front of the truck, and the middle weight is going upward, offering no inertial resistance to speak of. The short sudden slam to the suspension, mostly on the second of those forward points, meets with less resistance and a weaker spot in the frame, so it drives it upward.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 11:19

That depends on what is actually broken. Some things on German cars (even Audis) are cartoonishly cheap. Other things are cartoonishly expensive.

450X_FTW > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 11:21

sort of understand. Been a long ass time since I had my suspensions design class. I need my prof to draw it lol

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 11:23

I have to say, Ford's fix on the bent Raptors (most of which were due to warranty-voiding spring swap, let alone use) costing only like $6-800 impressed me. "Oh, you bent the frame? No sweat. Hey Jimmy, back up the chassis press."

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > 450X_FTW
02/05/2015 at 11:24

Leaf spring setups do complicate matters somewhat.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 11:38

It's better than what Edmunds did to their F-150.

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/f-150/201…

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 11:43

Long version: ain't enough aluminum repair expertise out there yet.
Short version: replace ALL THE PANELS (fixing is for suckers)
Alternate version: wowzers, parts other than actual body panels are by far the most likely to require peppering one's angus.

TJDMAX > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 12:23

You do realize that the first gen raptors had the same towing capacity and payload as the standard F150 of the same generation yea? So in terms of a truck they were just as capable as a regular F150 of that generation.

Aaron James > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/05/2015 at 12:36

That's a really good description, much better than my guess.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > TJDMAX
02/05/2015 at 13:56

Ford disagrees with you. For Model Year 2010:

https://www.ford.com/resources/ford…

Ford's rating on the 133" wheelbase with a 4.10 axle (5.4L Modular V8) is 6,000. The next shortest axle ratio is the 3.73, with a SuperCab, 5.4L Modular V8, part time 4WD, riding on a 145" wheelbase (the Raptor had a unique shorter pickup box). With a GCWR of 15,400lbs, the tow rating from Ford is 9,700. With Max Trailer Towing package, this increased to a GCWR of 17,100, with a tow rating of 11,200.

The only way to have a standard F-150 get even close to the Raptor's tow rating (or below it) is to go all the way to the base 2-valve 4.6L V8 (Not offered on Raptor). That drops the GCWR below the Raptor's rating with either a 3.55 or 3.73 axle, and then the standard F-150 tows less.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 13:56

Not Raptor, not Jeep, how about in between:

Kinja'd!!!

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
02/05/2015 at 13:58

Kinja'd!!!

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 13:59

Personally though, I'd rather have a 4Runner though, because fully boxed frame.

TJDMAX > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
02/05/2015 at 14:13

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-…

Seems to be that the Raptor and F150 have the same ratings. Or very close. Only when outfitted with the optional HD springs does a standard F150 really have a large advantage.

A Raptor can just as easily pull a boat or car hauler just like a standard F150. At the end of the day its all about how you load the trailer and how smart you are. The F150 and Raptor weigh about the same so i wouldn't be comfortable towing a lot heavier of a trailer behind a F150 than I would a Raptor. Both are still half ton trucks.

And yea the shorter bed is annoying but any truck that doesn't have an 8 foot bed is not going to haul sheets of plywood very easily. And no one is saying you should use a Raptor as a contractors truck. So that is a lousy argument. Have you ever been in the back seat of a Super Crew Raptor? Holy hell there is leg room for days. What you are sacrificing in bed space (1 ft) you gain in the cabin and it makes a huge difference for passengers in the back seat.

Either way, the point is that a Raptor can be just as good of a "truck" as a same generation F150. And for the sake of beating a dead horse, the frame debacle only came about when people were launching these trucks off jumps that Ford never said the Raptor was built for. So its like pushing anything to its limits and breaking it and then complaining that it didn't take the abuse you gave it.

And yes, a Raptor is a very specific off road vehicle, but there are plenty of people who do take these on trails. Stock vs Stock, a Jeep JK vs Raptor i would argue that the Raptor would beat the jeep on the trails too. Except for the narrow ones. But the 35" tire on the Raptor vs the 31" or 33" or whatever comes stock on a JK wouldn't be as good off road.

Dusty Ventures > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/05/2015 at 17:36

Most trophy trucks come in around 5000-5500 with fuel and spares. The lightest ones are in the 3500-4000 range dry and without spares, but being under 4000 dry is rare.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest.
02/07/2015 at 18:33

http://jalopnik.com/5820104/are-fo…

If you look at the photo above you can see that the shock goes forward of the rear axle. My guess is that the force of the impact was directed to that point, bending it up. As to overall how there were a number of reports of drivers pushing their trucks way beyond the safe limit, expecting 40k trucks to take the abuse of 100k custom offroad machines.