155 Horsepower May Be Enough For The Miata, But ...

"colorfulyawn" (colorfulyawn)
02/04/2015 at 16:10 • Filed to: None

Road & Track posted an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! today about the upcoming ND Miata's horsepower figure (for North America) making the claim that 155 horsepower is plenty for a car like the Miata. And in general, I agree. But that doesn't mean I am thrilled about the new car's powerplant.

It's not the horsepower figure that bothers me. It's that it's getting that 155 hp from a 2.0-liter engine, and these days, 155 hp from a 2.0-liter four-cylinder in a sporting application is pretty lackluster. I know specific output isn't everything. That's not the point. The point is power-delivery characteristics. How does that engine feel putting those 155 ponies to the ground?

I've owned my early, 1.6-liter NA Miata for a little more than 6 years now, and while I've always loved the chassis, the engine never felt like a great match for the car. It's not that it feels utterly lacking in power. But having come from Hondas, the B6 in my Miata just feels ... not very special. And it's not. It's a repurposed 323 engine. The biggest disappointment is that it doesn't reward you for taking it up to the redline.

Early Miatas had a lot of parts-bin engineering under the hood. Now that's not always a bad thing, but those B6 engines were fitted with an airflow meter that was too small for the airflow demands of even a stock engine. They run out of breath at around 6,300 RPM and become thrashy and lethargic-feeling. The later 1.8s were better, using a mass air sensor that could accommodate the airflow needs of the engine, but they still don't sing at the top end.

Those engines, both the B6 and BP, were heavy, too, with cast-iron blocks. So what you had was a motor that weighed more than it needed to, and was better suited to the needs of a small sedan than a sporty car.

Now I know that classic sports cars often had engines that were shared with small commuter cars. The small fours in MGs, Sprites, even the six in a big Healey, were engines designed for more pedestrian applications. But it's also true that nothing suits a high-revving, small-displacement engine like a lightweight chassis with great suspension.

I've always thought that what the Miata really needed was something like a Honda B16A. Not a huge powerhouse of an engine, but something free-breathing and rev-happy that lives in the upper range of the tach, and is relatively light and compact. An engine like that would suit the character of the car very well.

But this Skyactiv 2.0 sounds like it's still tuned for a small sedan, like the Mazda 3. The Miata, being a much lighter car, doesn't need so much punch in the midrange. It needs an engine that, much like the Miata chassis, begs to be wrung out at every opportunity. If Mazda were getting those 155 hp from a high-strung 1.6 liter, I'd be pretty stoked. But from a 2.0 liter, I suspect the power delivery is going to be all too much like that of my old 1.6-liter NA: decent in the midrange, but disappointing at the top end.

Baruth brings up the issue of weight as it relates to increased power, saying that a higher output figure would require several beefier components, such as 5-lug hubs. I don't necessarily agree, at least to the extent he makes it out to, considering that Flyin' Miata doesn't seem to think their 480-hp LS376 conversions need an upgrade to five lugs. But it does bring up the issue of the weight of the engine. Since you don't really need 2.0 liters to make 155 hp these days, why use a bigger, heavier engine than the output target demands? Wouldn't a 1.6 liter engine of the same power save weight?

I don't mind the idea of a 155-hp ND Miata. It's the idea of a 2.0-liter engine in a car like the Miata making that power figure that I'm not absolutely thrilled about. Then again, the Miata is typically such a great chassis, concerns about the engine usually don't ruin the driving experience. And I do expect the ND will continue that tradition.

DISCUSSION (29)

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:16

Yeah, I know what you mean. If I had my way, 4ages would be installed in every sports car.

Saracen > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:23

The japanese market car weighs 2200 pounds and has the 1.5L engine. Our spec will be several hundred pounds heavier. Makes sense that they went with the 2 liter, although we don't know how much heavier the engine is.

Parts bin engineering is an unfortunate necessity when you want to build a bespoke sports car that is so light, while keeping it affordable.

It's not much different in a lot of ways from the S2000, except that had a bespoke and very high revving engine, which is one reason why it carried a significantly higher price tag than what Mazda targets for the Miata.

Takuro Spirit > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:25

As someone who has experienced a Mazda3 with that motor, let me tell you.....

It does not sound happy.

It does not make torques.

It does not like RPMs.

Part of that (or all of it) was hampered by the asshole 6-speed auto, and maybe that sound tube I saw in some of the photos will help, as well as a nice muffler (my CX-5's 2.5 sounds angry at idle from outside the car) to make it sound like a proper Roadster... I guess we'll have to see.

PS9 > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:28

Those of us hoping a 250HP Miata would stick it to the Toyobaru twins have had them thoroughly dashed by the announcement. it's not unexpected though; the most powerful car they sell makes less than 200HP now and they've abandoned V6s completely, not to mention saying nothing about speed versions which no one has heard anything about.

I guess we'll just have to keep stuffing V8s, blowers and snails under the hood of our Miatas if we want more power. sigh...

Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:33

Yeah, it seems like a definite budget move for Mazda. As if they spent so much on the chassis development that they didn't have enough left to get the engine right.

colorfulyawn > Saracen
02/04/2015 at 16:42

I know our version will be heavier, but I hadn't heard it would be hundreds of pounds heavier. I'm expecting it to come in under the 2,300-lb. mark, but I guess we'll see.

Either way, if they couldn't afford a bespoke engine for the Miata, the least they could've done is bump the compression, add hotter cams and retune the Skyactiv 2.0.

BlurpleToyotaDishwasher > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:44

It's old hat now, but I've driven some Alfa Romeos with the 2.0 TS 16v engine which had about that kind of power. Pretty heavy (iron block) but really nice power delivery - peak torque was around 4k, but peak power was over 6k with a redline at 7250 iirc.
Very livable with for people who complain about the likes of the GT86 having no low-down torque, but then the variable cam stuff kicks in and it takes off.

If they can tune up the engine in the new MX5 to be similar it'd be a reasonable compromise between people who want a nice top down cruiser with plenty of usable mid-range and the "track day, bro" guys who want something with a screaming top-end.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:47

The problem is that Mazda doesn't really have the extra cash to throw around on engine development, so you have to work with what you got. I agree with you on a rev happy 1.6L but they would likely have to make it on the existing MZR block (I'm assuming that's a carry over to the ND). Or if it's a new engine, that means an engine capable of supporting a variety of displacements so that it will work in everything from the Miata up to the CX-9. The problem, then, is reducing displacement doesn't save you anything because all the heavy components (block, head, etc.) are all the same.

Also, rev happy engines are fun to enthusiasts, but they don't sell. Recall that the AP1 S2000 was an animal - 2.0L, 240HP, 9,000rpm. After only a couple years, the AP2 went to a 2.2L that only spun up to 8,000rpm. Still a screamer compared to a lot of engines, but just not the same (I've driven both and much prefer the feral AP1). They did this because everyone (i.e. trophy wives who, in my experience, made up the bulk of the people who drove these things) bitched about the power delivery of the AP1 and how it was too peaky. This is 'Murca, by god, and we want torques. All of them. Now.

Which is a shame, because I think you're right. I know this is a super light little car, but something just feels wrong when the outgoing car has 167HP 2.0L and the incoming has only 155HP.

Also, as famed Trans Am racer Mark Donahue once said, "it will never have enough power until I can spin the tires at the end of a straightaway in high gear."

colorfulyawn > Snuze: Needs another Swede
02/04/2015 at 16:53

They do have the 1.5 liter for other markets, but I don't know 1, whether it's a different block casting from the 2.0, or 2, how much potential for more power/displacement it has. I'd like to think they could've built a high-revving DI 1.6 out of it, but that may not have been possible.

Textured Soy Protein > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:53

I had an NB for 4 years, and I agree with you that the motor is unspectacular. The car was still fun in spite of its lack of power. I also agree that just because a Miata is still fun with not a ton of hp doesn't mean it shouldn't have more power.

But, the primary mission of the 155 hp Skyactiv-G 2.0 liter in the ND is to save Mazda money by using an existing motor.

Mazda's an independent, and not very big, car manufacturer. The engineering focus with the ND was to make it way lighter than the NC while using conventional materials, and meeting all modern safety standards. I'm sure that took up a lot of the budget.

In cars like the 3 or CX-5, Mazda's path to more power is the Skyactiv-G 2.5 liter. But the 2.5 adds 100-125 lbs to those cars. Mazda could in theory make a higher-performing version of the 2.0 just for the ND. But that would require spending $$$ to develop that new 2.0 version, and emissions certify it, and they wouldn't be able to use it in any other cars besides the ND.

Maybe a bigger car company with less of a need for a niche product like the Miata to turn a big profit could swing it, but for a little guy like Mazda, I totally understand their reasoning for using an off-the-shelf motor.

If I got one, I'd still want to turbo it though.

HammerheadFistpunch > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 16:54

I hear you, the 1600-2000 NA class used to be popping with character and pushing the boundaries for high rpm fun. now? meh. now a miata with a 3S-GE blacktop....damn that would be fun.

colorfulyawn > Textured Soy Protein
02/04/2015 at 17:00

True. I'm not exactly mad about the new car's engine, I'm just not thrilled with it. I understand mostly the reasoning behind their choice, I just wish the car could've finally had an engine that's truly as good as its chassis.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 17:04

Yeah, I'm not incredibly versed in Mazda engines myself, so I have no idea if its the same or not. That said, making a snappy, revvy engine is doable with almost any block. It's all about the component choice (i.e. lightweight crank and flywheel), tuning, and intake design.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Saracen
02/04/2015 at 17:21

Mazda sai. It would only be a few lbs heavier than the non-US car by virtue of engine sizing.....not several hundred lbs

wkiernan > colorfulyawn
02/04/2015 at 18:18

Given the choice off a menu featuring a.) a sports car with an OK engine and a stellar chassis, b.) a sports car with a great engine and a so-so chassis, and c.) a sports car you can only afford to look at, not to own and drive, wouldn't you prefer a taste of what Mazda's cooking? I know I would.

colorfulyawn > wkiernan
02/04/2015 at 18:32

Absolutely. In fact, I've already made that choice by buying an NA, and I do like the new car. But I'm also not going to say that the Skyactiv 2.0 really thrills me, despite the actual horsepower figure being appropriate for the chassis.

JasonStern911 > colorfulyawn
02/05/2015 at 00:17

I honestly haven't been following the new Miata. So when I read the article and it said 155 horsepower, I figured it must be a 1.6L engine that probably gets great fuel economy. But as I kept reading, I found out - no - it's the same displacement as the original S2000's FC20. imagine that - 16 years after the S2000 was mass produced, Mazda is still 82! horsepower down. That's with expired VTEC patents, direct injection, and a plethora of other readily available technological advancements. That's just mind-blowing in what is being marketed as a sports car.

colorfulyawn > JasonStern911
02/05/2015 at 00:21

Expired VTEC patents?

You know, I've always fantasized about having someone like Cosworth build me a bespoke 3.6L V8 based on a pair of B18C5s joined on a common flat-plane crankshaft.

Possibly related, it is technically possible to swap a VTEC B-Series into an NSX ...

colorfulyawn > Snuze: Needs another Swede
02/05/2015 at 00:37

Oh, and I've also driven both the AP1 and AP2. The F20C doesn't feel any slower than the F22C when driven in anger, and even the difference in everyday driving isn't night and day. But I also prefer the feel of the AP1. It just feels sharper to me.

Not that I'd kick either out of my driveway.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > colorfulyawn
02/05/2015 at 08:00

The S2000 is an amazing car. You're right, both are great, but I think with the AP2 they tamed it a bit and lost just a little bit of the specialness.

To be fair, though, I don't think the Miata needs to be as high strung as the S2000 was, but it would be nice to see it show up with at least as much power as the outgoing car. They could probably build a very competent 2.0 putting out 180HP, still make good torque low down for excellent driveability, and meet all their economy and emissions targets. But the result would make a fun and engaging car. Heck, my sister drives an Acura RSX-S and the 200HP, 8,000rpm K20Z has no problems moving that little car along, and it's almost 600lbs heavier than the ND.

JasonStern911 > colorfulyawn
02/05/2015 at 22:32

Yes. Patents only last like 20 years. Any VTEC technology - hell, any technology - used in a car like the NSX (90 horsepower/liter) is expired.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > colorfulyawn
02/05/2015 at 23:45

Definitely wait for the car to come out. The Fiesta ST has a 1.6L turbo 4 making 200hp and "200" lb/ft (more like 230) but it does not drive like a high boost turbo motor does. It is such a mid range engine. Is it fun to wind out? Yeah, kinda......But it is a joy to keep in the 3-5k range instead of going for the full 6k redline. The power is good and the torque is what you really feel. It is so confident building when on its broad torque curve that when you lose it at the high revs.....it just falls so flat.

Mazda has some of the best engineers in the world for this sort of car. I trust them. I think they know what they're doing so I will wait for it to be launched before commenting or critiquing their decisions. At the lower power thresholds, it is all about delivery and feel over numbers or stats.

bob and john > colorfulyawn
02/06/2015 at 00:27

so uhh...motorcycle motors in cars?

matw8 > colorfulyawn
02/06/2015 at 05:41

my understanding is that in Australia we're getting a 96kW 1.5 litre, and a 130kW 2.0 litre. Sounds like you muricans are being ripped off!

colorfulyawn > bob and john
02/06/2015 at 13:49

I wouldn't consider a B16A a motorcycle engine.

bob and john > colorfulyawn
02/06/2015 at 13:57

oh its not.

but light weght, high revving motor? thats like 75% of all motorcycle engines. just pic one, dump it in, and away you go.

colorfulyawn > bob and john
02/06/2015 at 16:36

There are people putting Hayabusa motors in NAs, or at least trying to, so you may be on to something there.

bob and john > colorfulyawn
02/06/2015 at 17:57

there are kits.

plus the smart-busas.
and caterham has a busa motor in there car as well

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > colorfulyawn
08/26/2015 at 00:49

Ah, but remember, 2.0 liters is the size of the empty part of the engine....