Which modern car manufacturer is the most Citroën?

"TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën" (theanswerisalwayscitroen) 12/11/2015 at 15:46 • Filed to: None

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As my screen name may indicate, I like Citroën cars. I like the 1930’s unibody front wheel drive Traction Avant, and the basic, yet ingenious 2CV with its front-rear interconnected suspension and absurd twin-engined Sahara version.

And I love how, even as early as the 1950’s, they experimented with active zero-roll suspension on the DS.

(although it took some 40 years before a similar system was available on a production car)

In short, I love how they experimented and didn’t mind doing things differently to everyone else - not just by making a few weird prototypes, but in every single car they made, decade after decade. Even if their method for solving a problem wasn’t necessarily the one later adopted by the majority of manufacturers, I’d still rate them as one of the most innovative companies ever.

Running a company like that wasn’t without its costs, though. After the development of the Traction Avant had drained them of funds they were owned by Michelin. This gave them probably their most interesting and creative period, until in 1974 they were taken over by Peugeot. Since then it has been going steadily downhill - at least if you value unusual engineering over traditionalism and, ahem, reliability. Their cars were still nice, but it was more of an evolution of the old hydropneumatic formula than anything radically new, mixed with some mainstreaming of the design - gone are the front-mid engines, the high-pressure hydraulic brakes and the super-direct, fully power-operated DIRAVI steering, replaced by the same “boring” stuff everybody else uses. The Xantia Activa finally incorporated the anti-roll suspension, but it was in my mind too little, too late, and that suspension design died in 2001 with the Xantia anyway.

Recently things have started to change a bit for the better. The C4 Cactus has some of the old Citroën charm, and the DS series looks plain good. But mechanically they are mostly conventional, and soon they’ll abandon hydropneumatics altogether - and I’m not yet convinced the replacement is a worthy successor.

So after this slightly too long introduction comes my question: Which modern car manufacturer is most like the old Michelin era Citroën? Or are we past the time when car manufacturers could afford to behave like that? (Or, am I a hopeless fanboy who idolizes his marque beyond what is warranted and looks at the past through rose tinted glasses?)

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 15:51

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I’d say that this is quite the experiment.

TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 12/11/2015 at 16:00

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A social experiment, perhaps. And certainly visually... Unconventional.

Is it technologically innovative or unusal, though?

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:01

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Probably not. I still dig it. And Nissan is willing to take risks.

Klaus Schmoll > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:02

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One could maybe compare BMW’s i cars to what Citroen did in their heyday. Class leading technology that was developed not for straight short term profit, but because it was possible (and might lead to profit some time down the road). Bit of a stretch, I know, but the best I could think of.

TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën > Klaus Schmoll 12/11/2015 at 16:06

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Nice one, I’d completely forgotten about those. I thought of Tesla - as far as having a “complete lineup” of unusual cars they are the closest I can think of, but fully electric cars have been made before, so the i cars may arguably be more innovative and unusual.

TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 12/11/2015 at 16:10

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Even though I don’t like the design I have to agree. They made something entirely unlike anything on the market that they couldn’t reasonably expect turning a large profit on.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:12

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I would totally drive a CrossCab

Dunnik > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:20

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First thought that came to mind: Tesla.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 12/11/2015 at 16:26

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Nothing says risk taking like having only two fun cars in the line up and none of them newer than 2008. Real innovation going on there.

Wobbles the Mind > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:27

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I do agree with Nissan. Between the LM-Nismo, the Juke-R, the tech of the GT-R, the introduction of the Leaf, Juke, and CVTs well ahead of the markets for them, Nissan seems the most willing to attempt something new from the opposite direction. They even jumped into the truck market and started off stronger than Toyota for a while. Everything they sell and attempt seems to be focused on finding a new perspective. Even the 350Z and 370Z were focused on hitting the Porsche Boxster and Cayman instead of the sportscars in the same segment. The VQ was well ahead of its time when introduced. I’m not a big Nissan person, but they are equally capable of making an all-electric truck, sell a turbine Rogue, or a three-wheeled racer.

TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën > Dunnik 12/11/2015 at 16:28

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Yes, they are probably the closest you get. I actually wonder why I don’t like their cars more than I do - maybe I’m just a luddite who prefers old-fashioned mechanical engineering to electronics and batteries.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 12/11/2015 at 16:29

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That unfortunately is true.

Dunnik > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:30

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Well, one can imagine somebody saying the same thing about Citroen in the 1960s. “I prefer a solid axle and leaf springs over this fancy Frenchie SLS.”

TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën > Wobbles the Mind 12/11/2015 at 16:36

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Good point. Technically I don’t think the LM-Nismo and Deltawing were developed completely in house, but I’ll allow it. I especially like the LM-Nismo basic layout - it’s very much like the Traction Avant, DS, and SM: Gearbox in front of the front axle, engine behind it, and drive to the front wheels.

I don’t know much about the details of the VQ engine - I’ll google it, but could you say how it was ahead of its time?

TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën > Dunnik 12/11/2015 at 16:38

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Yep, which is why I’m ashamed of not liking it more :)

(I DO like it, for the record - just not as much as I though I would, if that makes sense...)

MultiplaOrgasms > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:44

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It always sounded like shit?

Wobbles the Mind > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 12/11/2015 at 16:53

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You would need someone else for that. I have never researched it, nor even driven a Nissan. All I remember is it being an aluminum block with aluminum heads, DOHC, and 4-valve since I think the mid 90s. I’ve only heard about the refinement, output compared to competition, the fact it was so modular and flexible, and constantly updated to incorporate VVT and Direct Injection, as well as being placed into every single vehicle. It was like VW’s 2.0T before it came up, and is being used the same way the Germans use their engines now. I’m sure someone on here knows this engine though, I just remember it being on Ward’s Top Engine List all through the 90s and 2000s. It was like the Honda Accord of engines.

bhtooefr > TheAnswerIsAlwaysCitroën 04/22/2018 at 14:21

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McLaren is doing some interesting things with suspension nowadays, but that’s a much higher market space than Citroën played in.

However, I’m going to make the case for it being Toyota that’s the most Citroën-like automaker in 2018. (Tesla is too... clinical... about their weirdness, which makes them more German than French.)

Stylistically, we’re talking about the automaker that makes the following vehicles, that you can buy on dealer lots somewhere in the world, in 2018:

Call them ugly, but you can’t call them boring designs. Even the Camry that I slipped in there is no longer a boring design. And, really, Citroën had plenty of controversial designs in their heyday, as well.

Now, technologically, the argument’s harder - the chassis designs are very conventional - MacPherson strut front, control blade or torsion beam rear suspension FWD cars, with the exception of that (RWD) Lexus. However, it’s powertrain where Toyota gets batshit.

41% thermally efficient gasoline engines, in the face of the death of the ICE altogether.

20 years of power split hybrids - true, they were building on TRW research from the 1970s, and now there’s competing designs (and in fact their new FWD design is a refinement of Ford’s design from 2004 (that their subsidiary, Aisin, manufactured for Ford originally)). But, they’ve now slapped a 4-speed automatic on the back of a power split hybrid, for the LC 500h and LS 500h.

Production fuel cell cars - I think fuel cells are fucking stupid, but they actually do sell cars with fuel cells, that you can just buy. (True, Honda’s doing that, too.)