The Truth and Nothing But the Truth

"Groagun" (groagun) 12/10/2015 at 19:13 • Filed to: None

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After reading this today: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! I just got really mad.

If this were an individual living anywhere in America, he or she would be labeled, at this particular moment, a terrorist. More truthfully and under what you might call calmer and ‘normal’ times, a mass murderer!

!!! UNKNOWN HEADER TYPE (MULTI-LINE BREAK?) !!!

At a minimum there should have been prison time, not jail time, PRISON TIME for some of these assholes. This fucking company should have been put out of business!

There are lots of reasons why it’s still with us today, in the form of the New vs Old GM: it’s actually a legal term and definition for fuck sake. And none of the reasons are anywhere good enough.

If you’re a GM fanboy or just waiving the American flag, smarten up and maybe think of these people before some lifeless and life taking corporation.

I thought that last picture was very poinient. This woman Mary Ruddy and her Husband Leo, lost their daughter Kelly in an ignition switch acciedent. They have been very prominent in the whole story and this link tells the brief but heartbreaking reality of this situation: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

The reason I picked that picture was simple and for a reason that has bugged the hell out me since this story broke.

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She wasn’t picked from obscurity or an outside company. she wasn’t head hunted or parachuted in. She was a lifer with GM and knew what was going on.

Is there a chance that the out going CEO Dan Akerson left just in time and dropped her in to take the heat? Maybe, it’s possible but it does not matter at all.

GM is a cesspool and a dangerous one. I’ve dealt with just enough of their people to always be wary of them and I have come to distrust, dislike and dismiss any and everything from a GM executive: I do not feel the same about their plant workers or even their dealership people, let’s be clear about that.

The play on innocence and even ignorance burns my ass and it should make you furious. There is a time for things and even people to die, we have limited control over that. To say that it was simply their time to go even if it was at the hands of GM and their products and is the plan or wish of a higher power is just ludicrous and appalling.

The few bucks it cost GM is absolutely digusting and no where near what should have been done. The victims just don’t desever better, we all do!

jkm7680 > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 19:19

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124 lives that will never be brought back....

GM can eat shit as far as I’m concerned. They technically should be eating 10x the shit that Volkswagen is eating right now because GM actively killed 124 people. And when and if Volkswagen kills 7 billion people like the SJWs say they will, I won’t be around to see it.

They aren’t called Government Motors for nothing.....

davedave1111 > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 19:28

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Criminal charges are still in the works. But no-one at any car manufacturer has any intention of allowing people to die. Failing to appreciate the consequences of something can still be criminal, but it’s not ‘mass murder’.

Calm down a bit. People make mistakes. When they’re designing a product that sells by the millions, sometimes those mistakes can have very serious consequences. Sometimes it’s better to avoid trying to blame people based on emotional arguments, and instead try and work out what we can do to prevent the same thing happening in future.

CB > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 19:36

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The issue with cases like this is that it’s not seen through criminal law, but administrative and regulatory laws. In the eyes of the law, they didn’t actively kill people, they failed to take proper precautions in order to prevent the deaths from occurring.

Furthermore, in criminal law, there is usually some form of mens rea (guilty mind) that comes with it. I can guarantee you that no one at GM wanted people to die, but they wanted to save money. As a result, they cheaped out on a part, saving a bucks a car, which then resulted in death. The lowest charge would probably be criminal negligence causing death, but that probably couldn’t go to trial for the following reason: you can’t throw a corporation in jail.

Because of this, you would need to find and prove without out a doubt that there are individuals responsible for this entire event. How are you going to find that? Do you go after the engineers, who failed to prevent a flawed design from going out? Do you go after the pencil pushers who wanted to save a few bucks? Do you go after managers, CEOs, whoever else for promoting a culture and mandate that lead to these conditions? In the end, it’s impossible to narrow it down to one person to throw in jail, as there is rarely one person holding a smoking gun, or even a group of people who each hold a small part of the blame.

Until there are active changes on accountability and how these sorts of crimes are regulated, then fuck all is going to change.

Patrick Nichols > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 19:37

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Another problem I had reading that was curiously leaving out Volvo as the top safety manufacturers. It looked like most of their models scored the highest rating and they’re the only ones to offer all safety features standard. Don’t get me wrong I’m sure the Toyota/scion/Lexus bunch followed by Honda and Subaru and VW create more safety based on having more models and sales of those models but Volvo seems to be the clear winner

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > CB 12/10/2015 at 19:43

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I think it’s pretty simple in this case, GM has a had plenty of second chances. Pull the damn plug. Imagine how much shit would change when other companies realize that they can fall, if one that big could fall.

CB > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 19:47

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Oh, it’s straightforward that they were negligent and caused deaths, but it’s less straightforward on the whole sending people to jail bit. On pulling the plug... eh, it’s the whole “too big to fail” thing. No government wants to cause the economic backlash that would arise from shutting down GM.

Your boy, BJR > jkm7680 12/10/2015 at 19:49

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They didn’t “actively kill people”. Their board of directors didn’t release the part while wringing their hands and laughing with the intention of murder.

They fucked up and people died. Seeing as it’s over 100 people, so yeah, this is a HUGE PROBLEM. But saying they “actively killed people” is saying that their purpose, while designing that part, was 100% to murder, which just isn't the case.

Alex from Toronto > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 19:53

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Gm f*** up bad and people died but there was no intent to cause death. They decided to spend less on a part that turned out to be bad with then lead to people loosing their life.

Prison time is unlikely for anyone and the company will probably hit with fines plus compensation for the families.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > CB 12/10/2015 at 19:53

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People would buy cars from someone else, stepping up production at other plants. I don’t think it would be bad as the initial panic would be. I mean, it’s a GM, people would run out of parts eventually. Haven’t had one in our family yet that didn’t have something major designed to fail.

CB > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 19:56

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So you’re telling me that every single person at GM would immediately find new jobs at other manufacturers or in other places?

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 19:56

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Annnd I’ll still continue to buy GM products. Call me part of the problem or whatever, ain’t care. In the 25+ years my family has owned exclusively nothing but GM products they’ve been good to us.

There’s also the whole, a lot of those accidents had other factors besides the car turning off.

Do I think the person responsible for green-lighting the faulty part should be prosecuted and jailed? Yes. Am I going to boycott a company that hasn't made any of the affected cars for close to half a decade now? No.

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 19:58

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Sure. 124 people died over however many years, but not helping a massive corporation that employs tens of thousands of people will really go a long way towards saving lives!

Too big to fail is dumb, but letting that many people go unemployed won't help anyone

Your boy, BJR > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 19:58

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Sure and let the millions of people who rely on them, like my family become homeless, good plan asshole.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > CB 12/10/2015 at 20:00

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Not immediately, no. But after the initial shit storm passes, I think there will be available jobs from major and/or aftermarket manufacturers to fill the void. GM has caused enough problems to be considered a threat, and since according to Murica a corporation acts as a person, I think a person killing 124 people would most certainly be getting the death penalty.

Your boy, BJR > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 12/10/2015 at 20:03

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EEEEEEEEGGSACTLY!

No point in boycotting a gigantic global company that employs millions around the world.

Jayhawk Jake > Your boy, BJR 12/10/2015 at 20:05

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What he said. I don’t have the time to look through whatever documents went public, but do we even know that the flaw was determined internally to lead to fatalities?

I’m an engineer. Vehicles are complicated, and every now and then we fuck up. We try to fix it, and GM probably should have done more to fix it, but if you really think there was intent to cause harm you’re delusional.

I hate to be that guy, but 124 people isn’t even a blip on the radar when it comes to automotive fatalities. More people than that die every hour in car accidents around the world. Are we going to hold automakers accountable for any fatality? No, of course not. It’s very likely not the first time a faulty design has lead to fatalities and it very likely won’t be the last. Life is fragile and it's hard to predict or deal with everything bad that happens. If you don't think a similar issue could happen at another automaker I'm sorry to say you are probably mistaken

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Your boy, BJR 12/10/2015 at 20:05

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The shutting it down argument is entirely stupid as well. When Chrysler simply consolidated suppliers and plants, a heathy number of people locally were unemployed for YEARS, my dad included. The backlash from closing one of the biggest auto makers in the world would cause another recession most likely.

CB > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:07

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If you wanted to go after corporations that were threats, why not the banks who have caused global recessions several times in the last few decades, or a DOW Chemicals who purchased Union Carbide after Bhopal ( which killed at least 6,000 people and injured half a million ), or any company that uses cancerous chemicals that place their workers at risk?

If you want something to change, we have to change our ideology. Stop focusing on making a quick buck and potentially harming people.

Also, death pentalty? Really? We’re going to kill people (who, by the way, do not have the mens rea required to make them suitable) in order to avenge others? Is that really a good idea?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Your boy, BJR 12/10/2015 at 20:08

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Let’s put this in simple terms:

In the U.S., a corporation acts as an individual person. What happens normally if one individual person kills 124 innocent people? They get the death penalty. Why should this be treated any differently? If anything this just shows one of the biggest flaws of the idea of a corporation.

Jayhawk Jake > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 12/10/2015 at 20:10

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I wouldn’t necessarily say that whoever green lighted the part should be jailed without more detail.

Were they told that the failure was likely to kill people, or was it just a bad part that might act poorly on occasion? When they learned that people had died, what cases did they see? It’s one thing if they were presented a case where someone wearing a seatbelt had a minor accident and died, but if they saw the failure only with extraneous circumstances they could have determined death was caused by something beyond their control.

It's one thing if someone actively designed an item to kill someone, or if they knew with high probability that death was likely, but I can't fathom that's the case

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 20:11

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I think the gap in the market would cause other companies to expand, creating new jobs in the process. It would probably even step up QC at other big corporations as well, due to the showing that you can’t be too big to fail. Yes, it would initially be bad, but something really needs to be done, and that’s pretty much all that’s left.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 20:14

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I probably shouldve said something more along the lines of “if they knew there was a possibility of failure” or something like that. I was trying to type while walking in a store so I was trying to be quick about it. You're entirety right though.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > CB 12/10/2015 at 20:15

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I meant death penalty for the corporation, not the individuals in charge. InB4 why not canning and charging just those involved, GM has and always will be a shit show. It is the Donald Trump of the auto industry.

jariten1781 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:24

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No, the death penalty is not handed out like candy based on some body count scale. In places where it exists iit’s given for murders with aggravating circumstances. That’s stuff like torture, premeditation and planning, Crystal clear intent etc. Unless you think GM planned to kill people in a painful manner you’re barking up the wrong tree.

This is a more equivalent case of mass death: 15 dead driver acquitted of all charges but a misdemeanor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wid…

Typically, in the absence of intent, criminal punishment is relatively light even with deaths.

Your boy, BJR > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:24

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Because, like jayhawk said, the board of directors didn’t go to these people’s homes and shoot them in the face, they skimped on a part and people died, it wasn’t pre meditated murder (a Capitol offense) it was at best involuntary manslaughter (not a Capitol offense), but due to the nature of a free market, and more cars besides GM being available, it was more like criminal negligence.

THATS the difference.

Your boy, BJR > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:31

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Hearing you talk about GM is like hearing Donald Trump talk about Muslims.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Your boy, BJR 12/10/2015 at 20:37

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I’m just super glad the criminal investigation is not over. But clearly concrete evidence hasn’t swayed anyone yet on the matter.

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:42

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What do you mean something needs to be done?

GM recalled everything. They’ve cleaned up. It’s been done.

As far as your economic theory I think you grossly underestimate the economic impact of shutting down a $160 billion company with 216,000 employees. All of them would be out of work, as well as many of their suppliers and dealer networks. It would be a catastrophe. Other car makers would expand, sure, but with so many people and companies out of work the total sales of automobiles would plummet and the economy would suffer for a long time

Lets talk about that bailout for a second: the US Treasury invested $49.5 billion and sold its stake in 2013 for $39 billion. They lost $10.6 billion, but they also invested in GM’s financial arm (Ally now) and made a $2 billion profit. All told the US Treasury spent about $8 billion to save an estimated 1.2 million jobs, preserving $34.9 billion in tax revenue. I’d say that’s money well spent. Too big to fail doesn’t just mean ‘Im big, gib me money’, it means the economic impact of their failure would cause damage far beyond that singular entity. They are the world’s largest automaker and have been profitable since 2010. I don’t think GM being killed off would have done any good, and there’s no way to kill them off now. Even if you tried to levy them with a $20+billion fine like VW they could and would survive. Forcing a company to shut down over 124 deaths is ridiculous.

GhostZ > CB 12/10/2015 at 20:42

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Bingo. They can’t break the corporate shield because no one in the corporation independently did illegal things with intent.

GhostZ > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 12/10/2015 at 20:43

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Boycotting GM is stupid, but buying GM exclusively is just as ignorant,I think, unless you’re getting some kind of incredible deal.

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:50

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What? How is GM the Donald Trump of automakers?

Can we look at this objectively? GM has said 124 deaths were attributed to the switch, with 90% of claims rejected. Lets assume all 90% of claims remaining were deaths. That means approximately 1240 people were killed due to a faulty ignition switch. GM recalled 29 million cars due to the ignition switch. That means that 0.004% of all cars made with a faulty switch had that fault lead to death.

So if you owned a car with a faulty ignition switch your odds of dying from it were 1:24000. I rounded up.

According the the National Safety Council your odds of dying in a car accident are 1:112. You are 214 times more likely to die from a random car wreck than you would be to die from that faulty ignition switch. Tell me again how GM is a murderous company that should be shut down?

CB > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 20:51

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Once again, even though a corporation is legally a person, it asks the question of how do we jail it? A corporation has “no body to kick and no soul to damn” as my professor would quote. Once again, it goes into finding individuals responsible, and for already explained reasons, it’s difficult to do that.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 20:52

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It’s not the 124 deaths, it’s the fact that they covered it up. And then covered it up again. Yes, maybe shutting them down would be severely damaging and unrealistic, but holy shit, a slap on the wrist is a joke for as many chances as they’ve had. But, the criminal case isn’t over yet. I guess I still don’t understand(I drive a GM product nearly every day at work) why someone would even take the risk of buying one of their products now. With the exception of maybe the Corvette(which I’m aware they build to a higher standard), the Volt, and maybe the Camaro(I say maybe because of the price), their products don’t really have any redeeming features that you can’t get from someone else. Add that with the added risk of buying one of their products, it doesn’t really make any sense at all. I just don’t really understand the upstanding support for them after this. It’s like being a loud and proud Penn State fan after the scandal.

DoYouEvenShift > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 20:53

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GM is not alone. Any company that mass produces a product has been through this at some point.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > GhostZ 12/10/2015 at 20:53

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Well my parents bought a Ford and right now it’s sitting at the dealer with the gas tank out of it until further notice.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 20:58

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To your first question: They can do as much stupid shit as they please, and they still get loud and proud support from the best of the south.

Also, weren’t the other 90% rejected because of other outstanding circumstances, like being drunk/high/well above the speed limit?

Your boy, BJR > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 21:01

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The innocent who would suffer is far more than the 124 people who died’s immediate families. I mean, shit, Cadillac doesn’t even sell a car that uses key ignitions anymore, yet my stepdads dealership should shut down and everyone employed should be fired because of some mistake a bean counter they'll probably never even talk to ever made?

GhostZ > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 12/10/2015 at 21:10

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Every car company makes terrible cars, and every car company makes good ones. If all fords were pieces of junk why do you think they sell so many of them? Same goes for GM cars.

It’s a matter of the technology used, the design implemented in it, the quality control methods in place, the plant that manufactured it, the cost at which it was done, and the individuals who physically helped assemble the car that determines if it’s good or bad, and those change more on a model-to-model basis (and some cars are made in multiple plants) more than they change on a company-to-company basis.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > GhostZ 12/10/2015 at 21:20

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I totally understand all that, but in my personal experience, our GM cars haven’t given us any issues until they got up in age (which is usually wear parts, save the Vue’s transmission which was recalled after we sold it) meanwhile the less than a year old Ford is already having major things removed. It puts a certain image on a brand when something you spent a healthy sum of money on is broken.

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 21:20

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Take the risk? You had a .004% chance of having a fatal problem! That’s not a big risk. Many of their products are good. No automaker is immune from shitty products.

Many people are proud Penn State fans. One shitty person doesn’t define an entire university. One faulty part shouldn’t define the world’s largest automaker.

Don’t buy GM if you don’t want to, but don’t guilt trip people for buying them either.

Ford killed 27 people with shitty design on the Pinto’s gas tank, and another 27 people with shitty design of the Pinto’s transmission. Should Ford have been shut down when that happened? Would you buy a Ford product?

Honda and many automakers used Takata airbags, which have been attributed to 8 deaths and many injuries. Guess we can’t buy Honda’s because the airbag might hurt us.

VW is out, they cheated diesel emissions and killed countless polar bears.

Guess you’ll have to settle for Mitsubishi then. Enjoy your new Outlander!

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 21:22

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So GM products are only bought by people in the south?

Man, you get crazier and crazier with each reply. I guess most auto sales happen in the south because GM sells more cars than many other automakers.

Jayhawk Jake > Your boy, BJR 12/10/2015 at 21:26

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Fuck your dad and his dealership. Murderous bastards. Send them to Syria so they can be killed by ISIS.

CARS SHOULD HAVE KEYS NOT BUTTONS

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 21:29

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It’s funny because the number’s you listed added up to half of the deaths attributed to one part! But seriously the entire recall thing is the added iffyness. Also in your math, you failed to mention just how many models of vehicles that have been made since those numbers began recording, how many deaths per singular cause per each of those models, and so on. So realistically, your math(until you can prove otherwise) just proved that 124 deaths were limited to just a couple of models. How many were killed in a Civic due to the Takata airbags? How many were killed in Panther’s due to their faulty cruise control? How many owners killed themselves in Camry’s and Prii by installing the clearly wrong floor mat? How many people have died in BMW 320i’s by jerking it to themselves in the mirror? How much more likely were you to die in a Cobalt due to the ignition, compared to any other singular model by any other singular fault?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 21:39

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Nope, just personal experience.

Jayhawk Jake > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/10/2015 at 21:53

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No, my point with the first set of numbers was that the probability of being killed by a faulty part was lower than the probability of being killed period. With a 1:112 chance of being killed period compared to 1:24000 of being killed by the part your chances of being killed by a bad part are much lower than your chances of being killed by chance.

Lets look at it another way: in 2005 there were 14.67 fatalities per 100,000 persons in the US. That’s a humongous sample. The probability of being killed in an automobile accident in 2005 would have been .015%. GM built 700,000 Cobalts. Lets say all 124 accepted deaths were in Cobalts (they weren’t). That means you had a .018% chance of being killed by a switch in a Cobalt. Is it higher? Sure. Is it significantly higher? Fuck no.

You have a .01% chance of being killed in a car if you live in the US. If you really want to be risk averse don’t drive a car. Otherwise it’s a stupid argument that buying one car makers product over another is safer.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jayhawk Jake 12/10/2015 at 21:55

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Just null what I’ve said tonight please. I confess to being a dumb asshole. I’ve just had a shitty day, and this is my favorite subject to vent on. You’re totally right.

Darkshoe (With Straight 6) > Groagun 12/10/2015 at 22:07

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Yeah, I’m not on board with you either.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Groagun 12/11/2015 at 07:56

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Fanboy here; so you must really hate companies that intentionally design products to kill people