Every time I hear someone complain about Camaro visibility problems...

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 12/03/2015 at 15:50 • Filed to: Blind Bastards

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I always ask myself, I wonder how they’d do driving one of these....

Granted, I’ve only sat in one of these, but heard it from the owner himself, that rear visibility is poor at best and blind spots are, well look at them!

So I find it hilarious that the Camaro’s visibility issues are somehow the work of Satan, lest we forget these two aren’t the pinnacles of blind spots either. :p

Come to think of it, I can’t think of any supercar I’ve ever sat in that had good rear visibility....Then again, no one I’ve heard complain about it can actually afford one of the two above or any of the cars I’ve sat in to make my point, myself included.....Oh well!

I haven’t sat in a 2016 yet, but I didn’t even find the previous gen’s visibility to be that much of a problem.

For Sweden > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 15:54

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“Man, this plan stucco wall has some visibility issues. Can’t we get a window?”

“What!? You can’t see through a van Gogh painting either! Do you want to cut a window through that?! Hilariously hypocritical!”

El Rivinado > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 15:58

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Simple.

These cars are out of reach of the common pleb, therefor their faults are not to be brought up.

Also I should point out that these are 30+ year old supercars while the Camaro is a modern day muscle car designed as a daily driver and not a toy. These cars have the excuse of age and lesser technology on their side, the Camaro doesn't (although I blame government regs for causing the Camaro's sills in addition to bad design, but that's another story)

Shady Balkan Subject, Drives an Alfa > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 15:58

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Price and credibility. In two of the cases you get a lot of credibility and resale value, in the other you get a cheapo performance car that most probably in 3y will lose 60% of the original price.

On other hand I have driven previous gen Camaro in Yrop and it is not so bad, even though it totally messes me up with my over the shoulder looking for cars in the blind zone.

And on antoher hand Mopar muscle car will be my choice, so much better than the Mustang and Camaro when you don’t need a car to take on a track.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:00

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This guy’s got it down!

Urambo Tauro > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:01

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What do Lamborghinis and Ferraris have in common? They’re both Italian. And you know what they say...

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:02

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Well, I think there’s just an expectation in a super car that costs a fortune to not be practical at all.

A Camaro is pony car so it should be capable of more than just impracticality.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > El Rivinado 12/03/2015 at 16:03

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The SS is almost out of the reach of the common pleb in my opinion, $40k is a lotta green. The Camaro does offer comparable if not better performance than the 30 year olds I mentioned. And most I firmly believe will be bought as toys rather than daily drivers, or maybe both in some regards.

I will however righteously blame the gubment for all the fatass pillars.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > For Sweden 12/03/2015 at 16:03

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If by this you mean the Camaro needs some fucking epic rear buttresses with vents and scoops and things, I wholly agree.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 12/03/2015 at 16:06

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A pony car offering almost damn near (maybe even head on with mods) supercar performance. I’m starting to give up calling them pony cars and just call them sport cars at this point.

yamahog > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:07

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Resident owner of fatass fifth gen here. The Tahoe I’m driving this week has nearly the same blind spots and rear vis issues as my Camaro, but the sticker on the Tahoe was $67k, seats seven, and comes with all the sensors, cameras, and whatnot.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:11

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I don’t know if I’ll ever take “Pony Car” out of their description. No matter how Epic they get.

Don’t forget they had epicly performing ones in the late 60’s too.

ZL1 Camaro for example.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > yamahog 12/03/2015 at 16:12

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I’m sure that hiring a Dickensian street urchin to live in your trunk and report on the blind spot has got to be way less than the sticker difference between the Camaro and Tahoe - and you can get so much more done around the house.

jariten1781 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:13

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Um...no one forgets the rear visibility on the super cars...it was a common complaint.

Also leads to tons of pictures of people trying to back them up...creatively:

DoYouEvenShift > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:13

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I bet alot of it comes from people that spend a lot of time in Miatas and hatchbacks. Theyre used to the visibility, and to them, it probably feels like a bus.

Ive spent quite a bit of time in 5th gens. Once you set the mirrors and get used to vehicle. Its not an issue really.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:16

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*cough* because GM *cough*

Sam > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:16

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$40k is completely in reach for someone with good credit and a decent job. The Lambo costs something like 8 times as much (~$350,000).

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 12/03/2015 at 16:16

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Well everyone calls them muscle cars(which they aren’t, the challenger maybe) and it pisses me off. And one of the key criteria for being a “pony car” in my eyes is being affordable to young plebs like myself, which they aren’t.

PushToStart > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 12/03/2015 at 16:17

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Exactly, the difference between these and a Camaro is that a Camaro should be somewhat usable and practical, people DD them all the time, so it should have somewhat decent visibility (or at the very least, better than it is now...)

yamahog > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 12/03/2015 at 16:17

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Until they start getting uppity and demanding potatoes around the holiday season.

Sam > DoYouEvenShift 12/03/2015 at 16:19

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The Miata with the top up has pretty bad blindspots, what with the tiny rear window and all.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > jariten1781 12/03/2015 at 16:19

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I see this at car shows and God damn is it funny to watch. Even more hilarious is when I saw someone try to back a 458 into a spot without looking behind them or opening a door and almost sideswipe a Gallardo. :p

Textured Soy Protein > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:22

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When the 5th gen Camaro first came out, I had one as a rental car. This happened not because I set out to rent a Camaro, but because the last time I rented a car before getting the Camaro, I got stuck with a Chrysler Sebring.

After driving this awful car for several days, I vowed to never again drive a Chrysler Sebring. So the next time I had to fly somewhere and rent a car, which was to DC to visit my family for Thanksgiving, I did my usual full-size (a.k.a. “we’re totally lying about the actual size class of our cars so here’s a Ford Fusion”) rental pre-booking.

When I got off my plane and headed to the rental counter, the nice lady told me for only $10 more per day I could drive a brand new Camaro. Before I could second guess myself I thought, A CAMARO IS NOT A CHRYSLER SEBRING, and became the easiest up-sell in the history of rental car counter upselling.

I went out to the parking garage, and saw a Camaro off in the distance. In the yellow haze of the sodium lighting of the garage, I couldn’t tell the exact color of my Camaro, but as I got closer, I realized it was bright yellow. I learned the following over the next few days:

A rental V6 Camaro is better to drive than a Chrysler Sebring.

It is, in fact, difficult to see out of a 5th gen Camaro and accurately judge where exactly the front and rear of the car are located.

People in the Washington DC area in their boring mainstream vehicles did not take kindly to an interloper in a bright yellow Camaro. I have never before or since received so many dirty looks, horn honks, and aggressive driving directed towards me.

Anyway, my point is this: for driving around doing normal-car stuff, the Camaro’s lack of visibility can be kind of annoying. It’s not like you’re a blind mole rat unable to see anything that’s going on around you, but you certainly have your visibility compromised compared to many other vehicles with normal-sized windows. How much you’re willing to put up with this lack of visibility depends on how much you like the other things about the Camaro.

While exotic cars like a Testarossa or Countach probably have much worse visibility than a Camaro, nobody is really using a Testarossa or Countach to do normal-car things like they would with a Camaro.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 12/03/2015 at 16:22

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Recall visibility things blah blah. ^_^

DoYouEvenShift > Sam 12/03/2015 at 16:25

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Is that right? I rarely see one with a top on. The ones Ive driven had the top down too. I felt like I could reach back and touch the rear bumper from the drivers seat lol. But Im in FL, so sunshine.

shop-teacher > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:31

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I’m with you on this. My little sister got around just fine for the four years daily driving a 5th gen Camaro. It didn’t have so much as a backup camera, and she ain’t exactly Mario Andretti ...

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > shop-teacher 12/03/2015 at 16:43

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I guess she's a better driver than most here. :p

BeaterGT > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:53

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This is the problem with people who comment. They are idiots.

SkyNet > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 16:55

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As a previous owner, I can attest that it wasn’t a problem as long as you didn’t turn left. I liiiiiiid.

Really it only bugged me changing lanes in traffic occasionally and backing out of parking spots constantly. But even then, backing out of a parking lot was a rush, and it was my only rush in life since I don't gamble or do extreme sports.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 17:00

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Price isn’t in the Pony Car calculation.

It’s about being smaller than the Muscle cars with a big engine, they were supposed to handle for Road Racing.

An Average Costing Camaro was around 3500-4000 in 1969, that equates to 23-25k brand new today.

Sure it’s gone up but there’s more IN them than their used to be.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 17:10

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It’s probably not a big deal if you frequent places with good parking spaces. For tight spaces and heavy pedestrian traffic, a good old hatchback provides the best visibility and the Camaro could raise hairs.

I’m guessing the Camaro gets dinged because people actually buy and use them for daily driving.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SkyNet 12/03/2015 at 17:13

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Would blind spot mirrors possibly alleviate some of the “rush”.

Textured Soy Protein > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 17:32

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Most people who are buying a new car are trading in an old one. If someone has $10k equity in their old car, they can use that $10k as a down payment, and finance the remaining $30k. If they have good credit and get a loan like 2.9% for 60 months that’s $537/month. Not cheap but also not so crazy for someone to afford. Can easily be done on a sub-6 figure income if that person’s other fixed expenses are reasonable.

wiffleballtony > Sam 12/03/2015 at 17:40

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40k is pretty much the median annual household income in the US. Seems pretty expensive to me.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/03/2015 at 17:43

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The median household income in the US is 43k. Assuming they have a car with that kind of equity, that payment is probably a third of their disposable income after they pay their rent or mortgage. Not exactly feasible for most.

SkyNet > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 17:51

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With lane changes, yes (but the mirrors are tiny, I don’t know where they would go). With the parking lots, I don’t think so.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Textured Soy Protein 12/03/2015 at 18:04

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The only sub-6 figure income that should even be thinking about a $40k new car is someone who makes $99,900.

People with good income tend to have other heavy financial responsibilities, like health insurance and a house.

Take-home pay for someone in the US making, say, $75k gross, is just around $50k depending on your state income taxes. That is arguably a VERY well-paying job by any standard. You do not want to spend 80% of your cash flow on a depreciating car, and even if you do, you do not ever want to tell a friend or family member for fear of eternal ridicule.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > wiffleballtony 12/03/2015 at 18:12

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Yup, and also assuming they don’t have kids to feed.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > jariten1781 12/03/2015 at 18:13

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I need to see this in real life. “Reversing Lambos” needs to be a YouTube channel.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/03/2015 at 18:21

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It irritates me when journalists call a $30k car comparison test “affordable CUVs.”

$20k is affordable to the average American worker. $30k is pushing it, and $40k definitely is not affordable.

Cars are not really that expensive as long as you’re honest with yourself. A $21k 2015 Civic does everything better than a $28k Accord did in 1997.

Textured Soy Protein > wiffleballtony 12/03/2015 at 18:24

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I didn’t say median income, I said sub 6-figure income.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Sam 12/03/2015 at 18:24

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“Decent job” meaning $120k/year? The commonly accepted standard of prudence seems to be at most 1/3 of your yearly salary on a depreciating car.

As someone said, the average household income in the US is $43k/year. I would say an “affordable car” means something within reach of a household with average income.

Textured Soy Protein > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/03/2015 at 18:40

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I said “if that person’s other fixed expenses are reasonable.” I’m not saying that everyone who makes under 6 figures should buy a $40k car.

Let’s say someone has $50k net take-home pay. That’s $4166.67 per month. Now let’s say this person lives in a non-major city with cheap rent, and is single with no kids.

I live in Madison, WI in a 2-bedroom townhouse with my gf. It costs us $905 a month. It’s on the cheaper end of the scale for this town, so for a single person’s housing costs let’s round up to $1000. Our utility costs, including electric, gas, water, tv, internet, phone, etc are about $350. Then let’s assume a generous-for-one-person food budget of $600/month.

That’s $1950 in fixed expenses, leaving over $2k in remaining net income. If this person chooses to spend $500ish per month on a car, they could easily spend another $500 on random other shit, and save $1000 per month.

Now obviously, if someone with the same income is the sole provider for a family of 4, and has a house with a mortgage, and student loans, and kids to feed, then they’re not going to be spending $500/month on a car. But it’s easily doable for some people making that kind of money.

wiffleballtony > Textured Soy Protein 12/03/2015 at 18:42

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Damn you semantics.

Sam > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/03/2015 at 18:56

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Financing is slightly different. If you finance a $40k car for 4 or 5 years, you are only paying ~$500 a month. (Less if you are only leasing) I’d say a person making $40k with only 1 or 2 children could probably afford that. It’s on a case-by-case basis, of course.

Also, if the average is $43k, that means there are still a large chunk of people making far more than that. ~40% of households make between $50,000 and 150,000 a year, which means they can likely afford to lease or finance a $40k car.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > yamahog 12/03/2015 at 19:21

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Can’t you get the Camaro with all the sensors?

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Textured Soy Protein 12/03/2015 at 19:24

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Fair points; I’d add two caveats:

The number of couples who end up not marrying and not having kids is small. The time a household spends as a DINK setup is short in proportion to overall lifespan.

Most couples who are not already homeowners are already working towards a home downpayment, meaning maximise savings and buy practical $20k cars, if they can even buy a new car at all.

So I would argue that “some people” is actually very few people at any given point in time.

Textured Soy Protein > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/03/2015 at 20:21

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Look, I’m not here to argue about exactly how many people who make under $100k can comfortably afford a $40k car. I’m not an armchair economist.

All I was saying was that buying a $40k brand new car is not something that is only within the reach of extraordinarily rich people. Making broad generalizations about what people should spend their money on when everyone’s finances are different, and everyone can choose to be as responsible or irresponsible about money as they damn well please, is pointless.

yamahog > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 12/03/2015 at 21:42

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Amazingly, no. Backup camera was available in 2015, but side blind zone alerts were not. I believe that was added for 2016.

Nauraushaun > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 12/04/2015 at 01:49

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The difference is supercars have mad design constraints. Sleek bodies coupled with huge engines in the back.

The Camaro doesn’t have these. It’s just badly designed.