Thinking about buying a thing...

"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78) 12/01/2015 at 10:12 • Filed to: None

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As much as I tried to negotiate with the wife for a 1911, our budget, her smaller hands, and our (potential) plans for concealed carry means we’re leaning towards a compact. I enjoy target shooting, but fundamentally this would be for home protection and occasional travel — deterrence, followed by stopping power. I think the .40 is the best compromise between 9mm and .45, but maybe I’m just gravitating toward the less common (the brown manual wagon of guns?)

I’m completely new to automatic handguns, but spent my formative years around rifles and revolvers, so I’m comfortable and have well ingrained safety practices. I’m curious to hear any opinions on 9mm vs .40, specific models, etc.

(If you’re one of the 50+ people from the front page coming to casually lecture and berate me for being an idiot like you did yesterday, then feel free. I’m not well-versed in the hackneyed talking points on the 2nd Amendment and I’m not here to make a political point. I also own a chainsaw, two hammers, a baseball bat, and a 4500# minivan capable of 100+ mph. I guess you could say I’m a killing machine.)

bob and john > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:16

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I personally think a 9mm is going to have enough punch to stop anything you can reasonably expect to stop (plus ammo is cheap and easy to find)

if they are coming for you in armored vans and bullet proof vests, your f*cked

CalzoneGolem > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:19

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I’ve always known you were an gigantic uncontrollable whirling death machine.

Athorax > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:20

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For either a 9mm or 40 S&W I would recommend checking out the Springfield XD series. XDs (Single stack) if you are considering it for concealed carry, but I don’t think they make a .40 in the single stack.

I have fairly small hands have the 9mm XD 4” service model and it is one of the most comfortable grips I have found.

Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:22

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My friend has one of those. He’s happy with it.

jariten1781 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:22

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I dun know, I’m a .38 spl and 20 ga guy...if you really need more power to stop a home invader you ought to consider hiring a security team.

I have lots of experience with 9mm and have fired .40 a few times. I’d personally go with 9mm if I wanted an auto just for variety and availability of ammo. Not that .40s rare...there’s just way more in 9mm. Pretty much all the name brands are functional, reliable, and accurate...pick the one that fits your hands the best. Don't be afraid to shop used/pawn/shows either.

Azrek > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:22

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Some pistols have a strap on the back of them which allows you to change out for different shooter hands. Glock and S&W to name a few. This allows you to let her shoot and you to carry later on, but it isn’t an easy thing to just swop. My S&W requires some tool work.

There is an old saying in terms of being in a gunfight or self defense: “Have a gun.” So folks can argue one way or another on .40 vs 9mm vs .45 vs 10mm vs Desert Eagle, but you need to have a gun, regardless.

There are so many unusual and unique self defense rounds now for all calibers it doesn’t really matter what you pick. I saw one bullet that is new which looks like an angry wolverine (Insert Mental Image).

I’d recommend you have the lady fire both a 9mm and a .40 in different sizes, fames and styles. Let her pick and thus you followed the rule: “Have a gun”

Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:23

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What I would like would be the Deep Cover Ruger.

Fires 9mm rounds from a 7 +1 magazine, and its tiny. How tiny? 6 inches long, .9 wide, and has an unloaded weight of just 17.2 ounces.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:25

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I lean to 9mm over .40, especially if this will be serving double duty as a conceal carry and target gun. You’ll be kicking yourself with the more expensive ammo when at the range for fun. If you really want stopping power, go for the .45. A 9mm will have plenty of stopping power, large ammo capacity, and less recoil. Ideally, a two pistol solution would be ideal. But all things in good time. ;)

In terms of specific guns, if you’re trying to stay cheap but good get a Glock. Especially if you plan to use the gun for both conceal carry and target shooting. There are a ton of upgrades out there from companies like Glockmeister to make it a better competition machine. If you start really getting into competition pistol shooting, I highly recommend giving it a try, you’ll want to make some upgrades. Personally, I don’t like the XD that much, in my eyes it’s just a more complicated and more expensive Glock.

Another great option would be something from CZ. Another great manufacturer with lots of aftermarket support for the competition side of things.

And you can never go wrong with Sig Sauer. I really miss my P226, but they are on the pricier side. You can find some great used deals though.

Ash78, voting early and often > Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. 12/01/2015 at 10:25

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My giant monkey hands would drop that thing in a second! But I’ve heard they’re fantastic...

Tripper > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:27

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I’ve got a Glock 19 - Gen4 - 9mm. It’s ugly, but it’s good. Both my fiancee and I are able to shoot accurately with it (her more than me). There is huge aftermarket for Glocks as well if that’s your thing (sights, triggers, etc...). I chose 9mm because we do a fair amount of target shooting and the ammo is cheaper. A friend of mine has a really fancy SigSauer .40 (I’m not sure of the model) and it’s the only hand gun that I have used that I like better than our Glock, but it was more than twice the price.

Rico > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:28

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I say 9mm over .40 but if I were going to have something at home it will likely be a .22. Why? Because as Bill Burr said when someone’s in your house, in the dark you won’t have time to grab hearing protection and a .22 won’t blow your ear out. Don’t want to be caught in the dark and now you can’t hear shit either.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:29

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Springfield XD or XDS is highly recommended to me by people I know. I’ve tried the subcompact frame Glock .40, and it’s okay, but not really my bag.

Ash78, voting early and often > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 12/01/2015 at 10:30

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I shot a CZ 75 9mm the other day, and so far it was my favorite 9mm to date. My aunt has concealed for 15+ years and still swears by the Glock 19, which is a very popular choice.

Thankfully our local indoor range & shop has a try-out program with about 50 guns to choose from ($12 gets you a gun, a target, and 10 rounds). I’m trying to narrow it down to 1-2 so I can rent them properly and run about 50 rounds through each before deciding.

Man, I sure do love the .45, though :D

Mattbob > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:30

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Are you looking at the M&P? Its a nice gun. I went with a springfield XDM myself because I like the trigger action better and it had a better warranty when I bought it. You probably can’t go wrong with either. I went with 9mm simply for ammo costs so I can shoot more often. I figure 9mm hollow points should be more than fine for stopping a person. For protection there are a lot of varieties of ammunition that can make the smaller calibers much more effective than you would think.

Ash78, voting early and often > Tripper 12/01/2015 at 10:32

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Yep, the 19 is a popular choice and my aunt has carried it for 15+ years and loves it. I tested out a Sig .40 about 10 years ago and remember loving it, but I didn’t know about the price at the time...

Mattbob > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:33

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I have one. It’s great for carry (I’m 6’2” 170lbs and it disappears under a t-shirt), but the trigger pull is fucking terrible. I would use it for close range defense, but don’t think you are going to win any shooting competitions with it. Honestly though, I would rather have the long pull for something I am carrying everyday. More confidence to keep a round chambered knowing how hard it would be to accidentally fire the thing.

Tekamul > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:34

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You’re a smart person, no reason to rehash statistics you probably already know. So all I say is please buy a locking gun safe first.

Mattbob > Caleb "If a rally car can do it, so can my Malibu" M. S. 12/01/2015 at 10:34

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See my reply to Ash. Great for carry, terrible for hitting things more than 20 feet away due to trigger pull.

Ash78, voting early and often > Rico 12/01/2015 at 10:34

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Good point (and I love Bill Burr). I have to think about my wife and if she’s terrified to shoot 9mm+, then whatever gets the job done is ultimately the right tool. It might take a couple more shots, but with the right ammo it’ll do the job.

Plus super cheap to practice with.

TrickJos > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:35

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I bought the M&P 9c about two years ago. I don’t have much handgun experience but I absolutely love it. I have it mainly for target shooting and home protection. I was shooting dead on from the first clip. I don’t carry, but It’s very compact and doesn’t seem to have anything that would snag clothing. I imagine it would make a good gun for concealed carrying.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:35

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If you can find a CZ 75B go for that. It’s their slightly more competition oriented 75, with a lighter trigger pull and a beaver tail to help with recoil. Glock is an excellent, perhaps even perfect, choice for most people. If someone doesn’t like Glock they either don’t really understand guns or they own an XD and are mad that they paid for an over-priced wannabe Glock. lol

That’s your best bet. Go try out all the guns! haha Have your girlfriend try them out with you, and find the one that you both like best.

I have a feeling that in time though, you’ll end up with multiple firearms. It always works that way. Especially if you start getting into any sort of competition pistol shooting. It’s addicting. I really need to get a pistol, it’s just such a pain here in IL. -_-

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:36

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9mm. A hollow point from a 9mm has plenty of stopping power. I have an XDS single stack with a 3.3in barrel and its very easy to conceal

bought mine for about $500 new

Ash78, voting early and often > Tekamul 12/01/2015 at 10:37

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We’re looking at good quality biometric safes for home use. They pop right open and, while not foolproof against theft, it at least keeps the kids safe. Better to have the gun fully ready to go (and locked up) than to be unloaded and out in the open. Fumbling around in the dark, under duress, doesn’t sound like fun to me.

vondon302 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:37

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I’d go 9mm over .40 just for ammo availability. I like my 9mm ruger but the .357 revolver is way more fun to shoot. Btw got my ruger cause I couldn’t justify the price of a 1911. Bang for buck not bad.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:38

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Nothing beats a shotgun being pumped in a dark hallway to make an intruder run for their life, at least that is what the movies taught me.

Ash78, voting early and often > vondon302 12/01/2015 at 10:41

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I love the .357, there’s nothing like it. Practically, the double-action trigger pull and big size kill it for our first choice, but I’ll have one again someday...

Ash78, voting early and often > Future next gen S2000 owner 12/01/2015 at 10:42

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If I could fit one into an affordable biometric safe on a bedside table, I’d be all over it :D

njp1589 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:43

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Before I go any further, let’s be real. .357 sig is the brown diesel manual wagon of handgun rounds.

If your heart is set on .40, that’s fine, but I’m of the opinion that 9mm is just fine for carry and as a defensive round. It’s especially worth considering that even buying in bulk, 9mm is consistently 5-6CPR less than .40, which inflates quite a bit if you’re planning on shopping at any big box.

As for guns to try, I tried quite a few before I bought a Glock G19 Gen4. It strikes a good balance of portability, reliability and value, though it’s not much to look at. I’d try out the following;

- Ruger SR9 - The joke is that this thing won’t fire without a lawyer present. A lot of safeties on this one, so if that’s a concern this is a good choice. There is a .40 variant.

- Glock 17 Gen 4 - Full Size variant, easier handling than the more compact varieties, mitigates the recoil a bit better. There is a .40 variant.

- Walther PPQ - Loved this thing, but the price wasn’t right at the time. Solid ergo, shoots like a dream, best trigger I tested. I don’t think there’s a .40.

- CZ75 - Probably the dark horse here, you’ll find these have a cult following and a reputation for being a very solid shooter. It’s all metal, so it’s heavier but will also mitigate recoil better.

Ash78, voting early and often > njp1589 12/01/2015 at 10:46

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Great input, thanks. The local range let me test the CZ and I did really well with it. Reminded me of a more compact Beretta (92? The classic police auto from the 80s/90s). Very easy to shoot and I got a good cluster on the first try.

Shane MacGowan's Teeth > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:47

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Is your small handed wife also going to use this? A double stack auto will A) not be as comfortable for her as you might think, and B) a small gun in .40 has a lot quicker recoil impulse. There are cheap 1911’s out there, and the slim stack makes it fit hands pretty well, and cc pretty easy for a small one. I have a cc Officer’s 1911, as well as some others, and it feels a lot smaller in the hand than my 9mm M&P, and the slow shove of the .45 is a lot more manageable than the .40’s hit. My mom has a Defender in 40, I’m not a fan. If you’re going to do compact, I’d stick with the .45, or the 9mm.
As for the M&P in general, it’s a good gun. I picked one up at a pawn shop for 300, and it’s probably the best bang (lol) for the buck I’ve got in a gun right now.

vondon302 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:47

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And it shatters bowling balls like a 7.62 but yeah as a carry piece its a no go.

Ash78, voting early and often > vondon302 12/01/2015 at 10:51

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As a kid, my dad first taught me the fear of guns with a .357 and a few leftover pumpkins after Halloween. Not a lesson you ever forget.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:51

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Do you have a hacksaw handy?

Rico > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:52

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I just saw your name too, Buffalo Trace is my shit. Love it.

alan > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:53

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Springfield XDS 9mm. 9mm is the best for her and ammo is most common and easy to find cheap.

Ash78, voting early and often > Rico 12/01/2015 at 10:53

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I just “discovered” it after years of drinking Maker’s Mark and Gentleman Jack. Never going back :D

bbutle01 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:53

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How timely. I feel like I’m pretty much in the same place you are now. We don’t have any handguns at all but I promised my wife that this weekend we’ll go get her a gun. We’re in the 300-500 range ourselves. I don’t really think she’s going to be afraid.

But I think we’re going the double action revolver route. She won’t have to hit the safety and rack one (or choose to keep one in the chamber.) Just keep it loaded and pull the trigger back until it goes boom.

I’ll be getting mine shortly after hers. There are a few ranges in Nashville that will rent them out so we’re going to go try out five or six before deciding. Hey, we may end up with a pistol after all.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > njp1589 12/01/2015 at 10:56

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CZ has two polymer offerings as well.

The P-09 is their full-size, and has a 19+1 capacity in 9mm Luger.
The P-07 is their compact, and has a 15+1 capacity in 9mm Luger.

They both have great reviews, and those round capacities are pretty ridiculous. Definitely worth checking out.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 10:56

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Check out my response to njp1589 about the CZ P-07 and P-09. :)

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:01

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Unless you’re a cop shooting through car glass, .40 gets you nothing over 9mm other than more recoil, muzzle flash, and noise.

As for what to carry, there are lots of good options these days. The Glock 19 and M&P9c are great choices do to relatively low cost and a large aftermarket, allowing you to tweak the gun to your liking as you gain experience. They give you decent capacity and concealability. The Walther PPQ and H&K VP9 offer tangible improvements if you’re willing to spend a bit more money. The VP9 in particular is versatile because not only can you change the back of the frame to suit the hand size of the shooter, but you can swap the sides of the frame as well. There’s also the SIG P320, which I don’t like, but most people seem to. The P320 (and its cousin, the revolver-like trigger DAO P250) are pretty nifty because the serialed part (the ‘gun’ according to the ATF) is the trigger assembly. It can be popped out of the gun and swapped into a larger or smaller slide and frame. Alternate slides and frames are cheaper than a whole ‘nother gun, and allow you to mix and match parts to get the right size.

There are also great choices in the hammer fired, DA/SA market, such as the CZ75 PCR and P01, SIG SP2022, and Walther P99c. They offer a longer first shot, followed by a light and crisp trigger pull on subsequent shots. They also scratch the gun hipster itch as well (Walther and CZ both have a history of offering excellent, yet less appreciated, firearms).

If a double stack gun is too hard to conceal, the Glock 43, S&W M&P Shield, and Walther PPS all offer decreased width at the cost of lower capacity.

Whatever you do, get a good holster and take a good defensive pistol class. You want to be comfortable drawing, shooting, and reloading under stress. If you’re going to carry a deadly weapon, you should know how to use it under the difficult conditions you’re going to face in a worst case scenario, and know when deadly force is best employed. Far too many people shoot it once at the range and then think they’re good. A class will give you confidence to carry competently and safely.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:02

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Benefit to .40: Glock 40s are the go-to of LEOs everywhere, which means ammo and parts are easily accessible. I actually think of them more as the Toyota Camry (maybe Subaru Outback?) of guns.

9mm ammo sometimes is hard to come by, at least where I'm from. If your wife wants to shoot and has small hands, probably a 9mm is better (or a .380). Of course, I love the Colt 1911 and 1991, but I think Sig-Sauer is also an excellent maker of weapons. Everyone loves Glock but I'm just not a fan of how they feel in my hand.

njp1589 > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 12/01/2015 at 11:07

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I always seem to forget about those!

The last reviews I read about them compared them rather favorably to similar offerings from Glock (17 and 19, respectively), and they almost certainly have a better trigger.

TheJMan92 > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 12/01/2015 at 11:08

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I second the CZ 75. I got my hands on one for some target shooting and it was the most accurate out-of-the-box pistol I’ve shot, it really is nice.

I’ve also got some time with a Baretta 92 in 9mm and that was a real joy to shoot. They’re a bit pricey though.

For myself, I’m thinking about picking up a P226 whenever I get the funding. Should be good for fun and competition if I get that far!

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > njp1589 12/01/2015 at 11:09

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Yeah, they’re supposed to be great. I hope to be getting a pistol again soon, and the P-09 will likely be near the top of my list.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:13

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I EDC a Glock 27 (subcompact .40S&W). I’ve also been known to open carry a Beretta 92FS Inox (M9, for my milfriends). The Glocks now have the changeable backstraps, but you will probably want a single stack magazine if you have someone with smaller hands.

In that case, Ruger LC9, as mentioned elsewhere. Otherwise, a Glock 42 or Glock 43 would work (42 in .380ACP, 43 in 9mm) as both are single stack.

The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:15

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There are biometric or combo-activated racks that you can mount a rifle/shotgun in and quickly retrieve. You could mount one of them on the wall or in a closet and have it handy if need be.

If you’re worried about someone breaking in at night, that’s probably your best choice. Pistols are much harder to shoot well, especially when half asleep and scared, so you’re probably better off with a longarm.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > TheJMan92 12/01/2015 at 11:15

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My best friend has a 75B and I love shooting that thing.

I loved my P226, unfortunately Sig’s aftermarket support for competition guns is minimal. If I were in your shoes, I’d mod the 75 for competition shooting and use the Sig for carry/normal target duty. Ghost Products Inc. is an Arizona based company that makes aftermarket/competition parts for CZ’s, and is world renowned for making awesome stuff. You can outfit a pretty badass 75 from their stuff.

BigBlock440 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:21

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I don’t really have anything of value to add, as long as it’s comfortable in your hand. I did a lot of shopping around and settled on a Ruger LC9 when I bought one for my wife a few years ago. It was very comfortable in my hand with the extra space for your finger on the bottom of the clip and figured if she didn’t like it, I’d keep it and take her shopping later. I’ve got no complaints with it so far, but don’t shoot it as often as I’d like. I also have a 1911 and that fit’s both our hands nicely, but that’s a little more difficult to conceal unless it’s winter. Then I shot a S&W M&P 9mm shield and new I wanted it. So I have that as well, also a nice compact and has space for all your fingers with the 8-round mag in, the 7 is missing the extension. It’s only slightly bigger than the LC9, so makes a good carry gun as well.

I’ve seen some references to the Walther PPQ/PPK, I found them to be comfortable also, but I had read some people have problems with the slide catching their hands and it has some edges that could catch making it not the best for CCing. The XDs is a good choice if you want a .45, I didn’t find it as comfortable as the others I mentioned but it’s pretty compact and only slightly bigger than the 9mms I have. I’ve never shot a Glock, so I have no opinions one way or the other on them.

TheJMan92 > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 12/01/2015 at 11:22

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Looks like the CZ75 can be had cheaper as well! Thanks for the pointers, looks like I’ve got a new first choice.

jmedarts > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:28

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I had a Glock 43. Very concealable, very reasonably priced IMHO. I made the mistake of picking up an HK P30SK and just fell in love with it. It’s nowhere near as concealable, but I am a very big guy so I can hide it, and I am far more accurate with it than the little Glock.

The Glock will likely fit well in your wife’s hands, you can buy mag extenders to fit 2 more rounds to help with the lower capacity.

I think with a good self defense round 9mm has perfectly acceptable stopping power, especially if I can put more rounds on target with it. I have been noticeably worse with every 40 I have tried. Never tried a 45.

John > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:31

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I havent really read through the comments yet, and Im sure many people will agree or disagree with what Im going to say, its also quite cliched but for all the right reasons. I always recommend the Glock 19 to all first time gun buyers. Its big enough to shoot recreationally or fight with, and small enough to conceal or a smaller person to shoot comfortably. I carried one for several years, its small enough it works, light enough it isnt a burden but doesnt really compromise at all on accuracy or capacity.

Glocks are ubiquitous, but for good reasons. They are intensely reliable. Very accurate. Are among the lightest and have the highest round capacity of almost all handguns. Plus they are quite customizable, you can make them your own pretty easily and cheaply. Along with that, any of the smaller glocks can take magazines from the bigger ones, so a Glock 19 can take its stock 15 round mag, a glock 17 17 round mag, or a glock 18 33 round stick mag, which is really nice. You can also add a +2 base plate to the mags. I used to carry a stock 15 rounder in the gun and a 17+2 (19 rounds) mag in my pocket for a larger reload if needed. (I lived in a VERY ROUGH area for a while). Also for concealed carry I had the best luck with hybrid style holsters, the Aegis Armory Shield to be specific. Comfortable and very concealable.

The Glock 19 is a 9mm. As far as calibers go, I always tell people to do their own objective fact based research and pick the best for what they think they need from what they find and to stay away from opinionated answers. The conclusion that I drew from my own research is that I prefer to stick with either 9 or 45 and skip the 40. My explanation is this, the 40 caliber came about from politics (just do a google and the info is easy to find) not so much for performance. When it was introduced, it really was a gap between the 9 and 45. Both powder and projectile technologies were different back then, and quite often the tests didnt include the use of hollow points. With these criteria the 40 truly did take the good points of both rounds and gave you some of each.

Now, both the gun powder and hollow point projectiles used in modern defensive rounds, the performance gap between 9mm and 45 caliber is much much smaller. This means that both rounds now cut deeper into the standout capabilities the 40 has. The 9mm has significantly more stopping power then it used to. A much higher velocity (compared to 45). Its much lighter (think carry weight per round). You get a greater capacity and by the same merit, a smaller size. You also get less recoil making your gun more controllable and easy to shoot. The 45 is the same as it ever was, but much more powerful with modern powder and hollowpoints. Also with modern handguns you do get a lighter weight and higher round count than you used to. 9 vs 45 is basically mobility vs firepower, you sacrifice one to get the other. The problem with modern 40s, at least by my estimate, is that they dont give you a significant enough increase in power over the 9mm to balance out the heavier weight, lower round count, and increased recoil. It also doesnt balance out the difference in power between itself and the 45 for the same reasons, just reversed. Also 9mm is much cheaper to practice with over both of the other two, which is another reason I recommend it to first time gun buyers. You cant defend yourself well with a gun you dont practice with, and you wont practice with a gun that you cant afford to shoot.

This brings us full circle to my original recommendation, the Glock 19. I think it is one of the best beginner handguns out there. It does so much right and so little wrong. Is it the best gun out there at anything? Absolutely not. Is it very very good, even great, at almost anything. I think so. It isnt the nicest or the prettiest or the most high tech, it just does its jobs very well. Its not even the brand I LIKE the most (I love SIGs) but it is one of the brands I RESPECT the most. I hope you actually read my write up, because I have put lots of thought into it.

As far as why I am even near qualifying to give this answer, I can give you a little bit of insight to my firearms history. Ive been shooting since I was about 4, and I have easily put 35,000-40,000 rounds of all shapes and sizes, downrange. Which is a lot, more than most I would wager. I would never consider myself a professional in any way, but as far as amateurs go, I do have a decent amount of experience. Ive competed in several competition arenas, including 3-gun, USPDA and IDPA, cowboy matches, and countless trap and skeet competitions. Ive also taken many safety classes, including general safety and self defense courses. Along with all of that, I have also taught about a dozen close friends how to shoot, bringing several from absolutely new all the way to competing in different types of matches. Being able to see how people who never owned a firearm and what they need to be able to use it properly is invaluable when teaching new people when you yourself have never known a belt without a holster.

Let me know what you think of my write up, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I can at least point you in a direction. Dont forget, shooting and firearms relies on you. Its your practice and knowledge that keeps you safe, always take safety courses no matter how experienced you are, and definitely try a self defense class as well. Do your own research and be objective as you can, opinion is rampant in this hobby and can put out tons of bad information.

Good Luck and enjoy yourself!

Rico > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:38

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I read a list of the best tasting affordable bourbons and Buffalo Trace was like number 1 or 2 and I found it by my way at a liquor warehouse. Tried it for the first time 2 years ago and decided that it was just as good if not better than Maker’s for about $20 cheaper. Matt Farah toured their distillery in the summer and now I want to go visit!

Ash78, voting early and often > John 12/01/2015 at 11:39

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Awesome, John, thank you very much! I’m definitely bookmarking this thread due mainly to your comments here.

Needmoargarage > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:54

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I occasionally carry a Kahr P40 to shady Craigslist deals and whatnot. I love it, but if you are considering a concealable weapon to share with your wife, I really wouldn’t recommend a .40 handgun.

My wife, who is pretty comfortable around guns and also has tiny hands, absolutely hates shooting the .40 and isn’t confident she could use it in a home invasion scenario due to the relatively massive kick a very short barrel .40 produces. She’s much more confident with a 9mm or her current, a longer-barreled .38 special.

I don’t think the extra stopping power of a .40 would be particularly useful in any likely circumstance. Most home invaders would turn and run at the sight of a convincing airsoft gun.

El Rivinado > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 11:58

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I’ve never shot a .40 before, I either fire .45 ACP or 9 Mil. I’m a .45 guy everytime, but for something for a smaller shooter with smaller hands, a 9 millimeter is the way to go.

As for the M&P, definitely consider it as an option. I’m a fan of the M&P, it’s not my favorite gun in the world, but it’s a reasonably good enough gun that can work. (I’ve shot it in both .45 and 9 mil, and I actually prefer the 9 version more.) If you’re on a tight budget, the only other pistol I can think of that fits what you’re looking for, is a Glock, and quite honestly, I hate Glocks with a fiery passion. Of course, if you know how Gunbroker works, look up the Jericho 941. IWI is coming out with new ones and there are still a couple old models floating the market, they come in a variety of calibers including 9 Mil and .40, they go for around 450-600 in terms of price, they’re relatively compact, and they’re all steel construction as well. I don’t know how hard magazines are hard to acquire (the first gen models were discontinued a while back, and the modern ones are only starting to trickle in now.), so allow that for a valid concern. I haven’t shot one myself, but I have heard they’re great guns.

How much are you looking to spend for a handgun though? That's going to be a big factor in determining what you might need to look at.

Meatcoma > The Powershift in Steve's '12 Ford Focus killed it's TCM (under warranty!) 12/01/2015 at 11:59

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Unless you’re a cop shooting through car glass, .40 gets you nothing over 9mm other than more recoil, muzzle flash, and noise.

more $$ too.

Depends mainly on how much he plans to shoot it, but 9mm is pretty cheap comparatively.

9mm - 1,000rd case - $169.00 + shipping

40S&W - 1,000rd case - $275.00 + shipping

Ash78, voting early and often > El Rivinado 12/01/2015 at 12:01

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I wanted to say “price is no object” but being reasonable, there is so much available under $600 out the door, that’s what I’ll go with...

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 12:15

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I’m sorry to hear that the 1911 is out, considering they’re such excellent guns. The grips are small enough for just about any hand and it doesn’t feel like you’re firing a .45. Most modern guns are tailored for more rounds for some reason I have yet to understand, resulting in staggered and double-stack magazines, which require that much larger a grip.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 12:36

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Oh man, where to start... I have the exact gun you pictured, the S&W M&P .40 in full frame. I got it for a helluva deal, and frankly I’m not super crazy about it. Actually, I really like the gun overall, but I’ve discovered that I’m not crazy about the .40 round. This comes after hundreds of practice rounds and running it in a 3 gun competition where I put well over 200 rounds through it in “high stress” timed stages.

The .40 is a solution to an imaginary problem. Back in the 80’s, during the “War on Drugs”, there were numerous incidents where police got into gun battles with drug dealers and it would take multiple rounds to stop them, in some cases the suspects shooting and killing officers even after being wounded. At the time the 9mm was a popular round, but these incidents led everyone to start re-examining it’s stopping power. This led to the creation of the .40, 10mm, and a few other more obscure cartridges, as well as a resurgence of popularity of the .45. After widespread adoption of the .40 and return of the .45, what we’ve found is that neither are actually significantly better, but both are much harder to shoot. True, both rounds are capable of delivering significantly more energy to a target (for comparison, 9mm develops about 400 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, the .40 and .45 are around 500 ft-lbs) but there are other factors to consider than just muzzle energy. Bullet construction plays a part and a 9mm with a hollow point bullet is going to perform better than a .40 or .45 with full metal jacket ammo. Shot placement is also crucial - a vital strike (head or center chest cavity) with a 9mm is going to be much more effective than hitting a shoulder, arm, or leg with a larger round.

The current trend is that a lot of police and government agencies are actually reverting back to the 9mm round. And the big reason for this is actually because they are having a hard time qualifying people on the .40, especially with the trend towards lightweight polymer guns. The .40 is a very snappy round with harsh recoil. Additionally, advances in bullet construction mean the 9mm can deliver the stopping power necessary in a defensive situation, as long as your shot placement is good. On top of all that, you’re going to have the best selection and prices for ammo in 9mm.

So, then, back to the question of gun choice - the S&W M&P is a great gun, I’d just recommend sticking to the 9mm variant. One of the great things about it is the interchangable backstraps, so you can adjust the grip for smaller or larger hands. This would be handy if your wife is going to shoot it as well. The one downside to the S&W is the trigger is not the greatest. It’s not awful, it’s just not as good as some of it’s competitors.

I collect old military guns, so over the years I’ve come across a number of 9mms including the CZ-75, Browning Hi Power, Beretta 92, which are all 9mms, as well as the 1911 and a number of less common handguns in calibers like 9x18 makarov and 7.65mm. I also shoot at a club where at least half the members drank the Springfield XD Koolaid and there are a number of Glock owners as well, so I’ve had a fair amount of trigger time on both platforms. So here are a few thoughts on each

I’m not a Glock person, I don’t like the grip angle on them. It’s just a personal preference. That said, they are good guns and a good value, and have a very devoted fanbase.

Beretta 92 is what I carried on watch in the military and its a solid gun. They are accurate and have a nice trigger. Being that they are the primary military side arm, you can get surplus magazines cheap if you want extras. They are also very easy to disassemble and clean. Early ones had locking block issues but I think that’s been fixed. Anyways it didn’t come on until around 10,000 rounds or so. I doubt you’d ever shoot that much unless you start competing.

Browning Hi Power is the 1911’s cousin. If you like the look and feel of a 1911, you’ll like the Hi Power. I have a rare alloy frame one, and love the look and feel of it, but hate the trigger. I need to remove the magazine safety disconnect (I don’t think these are “safe” at all, but thats another rant), I hear that cleans the trigger up a lot, so I guess I’ll find out once I get around to doing it.

CZ-75 is my current sweetheart. I have a Police model 75 BD and it’s now my go to target and competition pistol. It’s very accurate and has a good trigger. The one downside is that its very heavy compared to polymer guns like the Glock and M&P. It soaks up the recoil good, but its definitely noticeable to hump around all day at a competition.

Springfield XDs have a great reputation, as I mentioned half the people at my club have them. They are very accurate and probably have the best out of the box trigger of any gun listed here.

I’ll also throw a plug in here for Rock Island Arms. I don’t have as much experience with them as I do the others listed above, but they seem to be a quality gun at a very reasonable price. You mentioned you like the 1911, and they specialize in 1911 “clones.” However they make them in various calibers including 9mm, and even have offerings with double stack magazines. It might be worth looking into

You also mentioned the possibility of carry, which is a whole other issue. All the guns above are full size pistols and do not lend themselves to concealed carry easily. It can be done but it’s difficult. However, I think all the companies above make compact models of their guns which would be a much better choice for carry while still being manageable and enjoyable at the range.

As always the above are mostly opinions, so take them for what they are worth, but I’m always happy to talk guns. I’ve been shooting for over 15 years now, including my 6 years in the Navy (with a short stint working as an armorer), collecting for the last 5 or so years, and competing and coach for the last year.

desertdog5051 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 12:41

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Personally, I would choose the .40 for myself. (my personal defense gun is a .45).

However, for a wife, I would probably compromise a bit and choose the 9mm. 165 gr. vs 115 gr. weight. 9mm is easier to shoot with less recoil.

Both will do the job.

Pilot of the Clown Shoe > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 12:56

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I’ve got a 1911 and a Glock 19 that I’m comfortable carrying. My Glock is the one I’d grab if there was a “Hey, we have to leave RIGHT NOW and you’re going to need a pistol” situation. It’s STUPID reliable and I’ve practiced with it enough that barring massive ammo failure I know exactly what’s going to happen every time I pull the trigger.

Teleph0nes > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 13:04

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If you are getting a compact, I would recommend a 9mm, especially if your wife if going to shoot it and/or carry it. .40 is pretty snappy round, and recoil increases as gun size goes down. Another friend had a M&P Compact in .40, which was way more pleasant to shoot than I expected, but I expected it to be REALLY unpleasant. Keep in mind, I have been shooting handguns at least twice a month for 5+ years. As far as “stopping power” goes, the difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 is actually pretty negligible when you use good quality defensive ammo, and it is better to use a smaller round you can shoot instead of a more powerful round you cannot. (It’s better to shoot someone 8 times with a .22 than to miss 8 times with a Desert Eagle, in the extreme example). I also like 9 because I am poor and it is cheap. As far as actual firearms themselves go, you really can’t go wrong with any of the “big name” polymer pistols (Glock, Smith and Wesson, Springfield, FN, Sig, HK, CZ, Ruger, and a few others) I have an FNS-9 Compact that is fantastic. The trigger is super crisp, the sights are good, its been 100% reliable so far, and its pretty. (Rule #1, always look cool.) But ultimately, I would find the pistol that is the best combo of features, ergonomics, and price that work for you, since they are all a little different. I am not sure where you are located, but a lot of ranges have rentals. I’d recommend shopping around and narrowing the search down to a couple of models, and then going to a range with rentals and actually shooting them.

nucciOMG > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 13:06

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I’m a fan of .40s, I have a Glock 23 for smaller carrying. I daily a Glock 19 (9mm). The 23 is a little more rambunctious than the 19 because of caliber, and smaller grip (even with pinky extension).

Whatever I’m just typing... killing time at work.

My only suggestion would be check out the trigger on the S&W. Wasn’t a huge fan of the Shield’s trigger.

Teleph0nes > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 13:12

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CZs are fantastic guns. If you liked the C75, check out the P-09 and/or P-07. They are the new polymer framed pistols (09 is full size, 07 is compact) and you can find them for like $450-500. My friend has a P-09, and it shoots like a dream, but its also huge. This is good for home defense and competition, not so good for conceal-carry. I would imagine the P-07 would be pretty similar in awesomeness, just smaller all around.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Mattbob 12/01/2015 at 13:53

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Do you have the original LC9 or the newer LC9s? The originals were hammer fired and their triggers were garbage. The s version is striker fired and has a much better trigger. It’s still no competition gun, but I’d put it inline with something like my M&P.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 12/01/2015 at 13:59

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I have a feeling that in time though, you’ll end up with multiple firearms. It always works that way.

Haha, yeah... you buy that first one, then you get another, then another follows you home, then you get a C&R, and next thing you know you have like 48...

Ash78, voting early and often > Teleph0nes 12/01/2015 at 14:03

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Yep, I replied elsewhere, but our local indoor range has about 50 pistols. $12 for a “test drive” (rental and 10 rounds), then once you narrow it down you can rent them properly and buy a couple boxes of ammo to help you decide more thoroughly.

From everything I’ve read here today, I’m leaning more towards the Glock 19 and the CZ P-09. I’m pretty sold on 9mm, especially considering the cost of ownership and universal availability of ammo (eg, in the worst case of ammo shortages or widespread panic, I can at least pool resources with neighbors and friends)

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rico 12/01/2015 at 14:06

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I find 22 is still pretty damn loud out of a pistol unless you’re shooting subsonic ammo.

Mattbob > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/01/2015 at 14:13

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I have the original LC9. I didn’t notice the s in the picture. I would be curious to feel the trigger on a striker fired one. That said, it is kind of nice to know that the gun would take an act of god to go off accidentally.

Rico > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/01/2015 at 14:16

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No doubt it is I wonder how it compares to a 9mm. The comment Burr makes is in regards to people who want to protect their homes with a Desert Eagle.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Mattbob 12/01/2015 at 14:30

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Ruger is attempting to phase out the LC9, or so I’ve heard, but my LGS has both. I was able to dry fire them side by side and the 9s is much better. If you notice in the pic, the 9s also has a trigger safety, a la Glock, to prevent an accidental discharge from occuring without actually pulling the trigger.

For what it’s worth I heard somewhere Ruger has a trade up program, though I think they only give you $100 towards a 9s if you trade in your original 9.

What scares me is they also make a version called the 9s Pro that has no thumb safety. Now that’s just what I want when I appendix carry... a loaded gun with the safety off pointed right at my junk.

Mattbob > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/01/2015 at 14:33

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yeah, thats kind of why I will keep my LC9, because thats where I carry. I like knowing that I really have to mean it for that thing to go off. My XDm has the trigger safety, but I am only so confident in that.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rico 12/01/2015 at 14:40

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Yeah, that makes more sense. Any gun, unless you’re running a can, is going to be quite loud. Although shooting anything with subsonic rounds might be a good idea. You’ll still get a fair amount of muzzle blast, but you won’t have that sonic crack which is what I find particularly uncomfortable. Also I think in the confines of a home, its going to be so damn loud it’s going to affect the perpetrators hearing as well, so the tactical drawback is kind of moot.

My argument against the 22 is that there’s so little muzzle energy produced by it, especially out of a short pistol barrel, and even the expanding bullets don’t get all that big. So your energy transfer is very small. Still, it would be better than nothing. Also, Keltec makes that PMR-30, it shoots .22 WMR which have a bit more ass behind them than the .22LR, and it has 30 round magazines, so what you lose in per-shot stopping power, you can make up for in volume of fire.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Mattbob 12/01/2015 at 14:42

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I just picked up my 9s in the non-Pro version. My dealer had one in stock and offered me a good deal on it, but I asked him to order me a regular one because I feel way more comfortable with the safety.

Rico > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/01/2015 at 15:04

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Yeah within the confines of a room any gun is going to sound crazy loud. Many States have laws regarding the max magazine size so that can be an issue. I think having any gun will scare off an intruder at that point unless their goal wasn’t to just break in but to also cause bodily harm and even then a perp with a gun will still fear a home owner with a gun. One person is in a familiar place and one isn’t, a gun goes off and it’s not their own they are likely going to get out as soon as possible.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rico 12/01/2015 at 15:21

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Agreed, magazine capacity laws make owning a gun like the PMR30 difficult, and definitely pointless for a defense scenario.

And I think for the most part you’re right. If someone’s there to steal your iPad and gold watch, they aren’t looking for a whole lot of trouble. But those people are also usually smart enough not to come around when you’re home. What concerns me is the tweakers who are high on something, like PCP. I live near DC and it’s a growing problem around here and that stuff is terrifying, because it pretty much turns off pain.

Now I’m not saying that everyone needs to be terrified that their home will be invaded by 20 people high on PCP like its some zombie apocalypse, but I think it’s good to be cognizant of all the possible scenarios and consider what is likely to happen in your area, and come up with a plan and equip yourself in a way that’s reasonable for the most likely situations.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 16:14

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I carry a Springfield Armory XD-S in .45. It is small enough to carry comfortably in and IWB holster, it has .45 power and it fits my small hands well. It is an easy pistol to shoot well with easy recoil. I have no problem shooting through a box of shells in a session with the gun.

The same gun is available in 9mm and I believe .40 as well. I would lean towards .45 or 9mm if you don’t want to go the .45 route. I’ve shot friends .40’s in different guns, and their recoil is sharper than either the .45 or 9mm. In the XD-S the 9mm is slightly heavier than the .45 because it uses the same slide and frame and is therefore heavier because there is less empty space in the barrel. That would make for even lighter recoil if you go that route.

Ash78, voting early and often > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/01/2015 at 16:24

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Great post — I also really liked the CZ 75 I tried last weekend. It sort of reminded me of the Beretta 92 I shot a lot many years ago. Others have mentioned CZ’s newer P-07 compact, which might be a better fit overall (plus a 15+1 capacity, wow...)

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 17:04

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Thank you.

CZ’s are really under rated guns, but I think people are slowly starting to realize how great they are. I have 4 CZs, the aforementioned 75, a 70 (little 7.65mm guy used by Czech detectives - I even have a police issue shoulder holster for it), 82 (9x18 makarov used by Czech military) and a Vz.58 rifle, which shoots the same round as an AK-47 but is better in almost every way. They are all great shooters.

The newer P series are also fantastic. I almost bought a RAMI as a dedicated carry gun before getting my Ruger LC9s. But I think for your intended use the P-07 compact would be a great choice. It’s going to be big enough to shoot comfortably, but small enough to conceal. And with the polymer frame it will be a bit lighter than the all metal 75. And at around $450 it should be priced pretty reasonably.

One last word of advice - you and your wife should both go take a training class, and by that I mean a practical course where you actually learn proper grip, stance, etc., practice shooting for accuracy, practice drawing from concealment, engaging multiple targets, etc. I started shooting when I was about 14, but didn’t have anyone to teach me anything beyond gun safety, so I’ve picked up a lot of bad habits in the last 17 years and have found some of them hard to un-learn.

Ash78, voting early and often > Snuze: Needs another Swede 12/01/2015 at 17:12

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Great advice, we’re both planning to do just that. I know how easy it is to pick up poor muscle memory from self-training in almost anything, so I’m at least going to fork out the $75/hr for one-on-one lessons. A lot of people can shoot at the range all day, but IMHO the “real deal” is how readily you can find, draw and ready your weapon (safely). My uncle is a 20-year professional CCW instructor and would give me free lessons all day, but unfortunately he’s 10 hours away in Houston.

Sometimes the shooting range is like watching all those guys trying to get better at golf at the driving range, while the guy who beats them all is the one who spends most of his time around the putting green.

side note: Just had another break-in in our neighborhood, 2 streets over. Typical daytime, nobody home (thankfully).

Maximum_Odyssey > Ash78, voting early and often 12/01/2015 at 19:39

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You can’t really go wrong with a Glock. I personnaly like the 45 caliber, but the 9mm has some size advantages for carry conceal.

Shour, Aloof and Obnoxious > Ash78, voting early and often 12/02/2015 at 00:55

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As if you haven’t had enough replies alre