Talk me out of suicide by Z06

"marshknute" (marshknute) 11/04/2015 at 15:02 • Filed to: None

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In the next few weeks, I’m going to buy a used C6 Corvette as a track car. I’m looking at 2008+ base models which come with the newer/better engine (LS3), gearbox, and suspension. They generally have 25-30K miles on the odometer.

That said, there are two Z06’s in my budget and within my search radius! Their mileage is higher (40K and 50K), but Corvette’s are supposed to be as reliable as a wood-burning stove. Please tell me if that’s not the case.

I’m not going to lie, I’m a bit scared of the Z06. 505 hp is A LOT of power. It puts me into supercar territory, and I only have one season of HPDE under my belt. The only car I’ve driven on a track is my 15’ WRX, which is extremely forgiving thanks to the default understeer and helpful AWD system. I had to overdrive the WRX to keep up with the rest of the Porsche Club, and the car saved my ass every time I went into a turn too hot.

A Z06 most definitely WON’T save my ass. But I keep reminding myself that a 430hp base Corvette isn’t exactly a guardian angel. If a base Corvette is already too much car, why not go all out and get the Z06? Famous last words?

The big reason I’m going with a Corvette is because I want to invest in a track car that won’t outlive its usefulness once I advance past the intermediate run groups at HPDE. A Z06 would keep up with the fastest GT3 or Turbo S. I won’t need that kind of speed for several years, but I won’t be in the beginner’s run group forever, and the upper run groups feature stripped-out track weapons with full cages and Cup suspension. I have every reason to believe a base Corvette will be plenty sufficient, but what do I know?

So what say you Oppo? Is the Z06 too much car (yes, it is)? Even if it isn’t (it is), is there any reason to be wary of a 40-50K mile Z06? Is a base Corvette really going to be less suicidal (maybe?)?

crowmolly > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:05

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Have they had the valve guide work done?

miadaman? yes please > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:08

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From the sound of it, there still are plenty of room for driver improvement before car improvement. Still, I understand the desire for something with more power and RWD (rightfully so). Therefore if you do decide to do this, just remember it’s ok to leave the traction control on.

Personally I would go for something ~200HP (or Miata), higher horsepower tend to hide your flaws and magnify your mistakes. Either way, good on you to take it to the track!

Snuze: Needs another Swede > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:10

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DO ITTTTTT!!!!

Seriously, though, the Z06 is A LOT of car. But for the money, that seems like a helluva deal. If I were in your shoes I’d probably be buying the Z06 as we speak. But I’m also the guy who went from a 400cc bike straight to a CBR1000RR. So what do I know?

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:15

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that’s a lot of car. I do not have the track experience or driving experience to help out here but whatever you buy I hope pictures will come

EL_ULY > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:16

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Z06 yourself NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

marshknute > crowmolly 11/04/2015 at 15:17

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Don’t know. My research consists of nothing more than a cars.com search.

Once the loan pay-off paperwork for the WRX is settled and once I have the Title, I’ll start digging deeper on the Vette’s.

But what is this valve guide work you speak of?

Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:19

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Not only will the ‘Vette kill you, it will eat your soul. As much as I like the Z06, I think you may want to setup to the 500hp range a little more slowly. Is there anything interesting that would fall between the worlds of the WRX and the Z06?

Etchglow > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:19

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Split the difference and get a Grand Sport! Me being paranoid, I bought a vehicle with a LS3 because replacing one of those is less than half what a new LS7 costs.

crowmolly > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:22

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http://ls1tech.com/articles/gm-is…

IMO before you plunk down the $ you should read up.

Future next gen S2000 owner > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:23

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DO IT!*

*I’m that guy who talks all his friends into doing crazy/stupid stuff.

Food for thought, C5 Z06. Traction control can be left on. I would DD a Z06 with a track setup but I’m a bit sadistic.

uofime-2 > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:27

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Why not get an c5 zo6 use that for a couple years then upgrade to the c6 zo6 or even a c7 z51 then?

I would expect those are depreciated to the point where you won’t loose much doing that.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:33

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No.

If you’ve been overdriving and relying on your car to save your ass, you need to take a step back and think. It sounds like you need more seat time and more time with an instructor. Getting into a high horsepower car is not going to end well for anyone.

Keep you current car and get more seat time and car control. If you’re dead set on switching to RWD consider something like an older M3.

“Investing in a track car” is not how you should be looking at things. If you can’t afford to ball it up and walk away, don’t track it. Track insurance is always an option to get the money back, but don’t plan of tracking the same car for years and years without getting that urge to upgrade. Your skills are going to keep improving, and if they aren’t, you’re doing something wrong.

I've been out there in a FWD econobox for 4 years now, and it's moved up the run groups with me just fine. Run groups aren't based on HP, they are by driver skill.

marshknute > crowmolly 11/04/2015 at 15:40

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Will do. Thanks! This is why I come to Oppo!

crowmolly > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:46

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Sorry I don’t have more info for you, I only have a small amount of exposure to the issue. If you are already stretching your budget to buy the car in the first place I presume a valve job is probably not in the cards. LOL.

Good luck!

marshknute > uofime-2 11/04/2015 at 15:46

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My mom is convinced that all cars older than 2010 are deathtraps filled with asbestos. She has no idea what a Corvette is, but I’d never hear the end of it if I bought a “classic Corvette” as she calls the C5.

At least with a C6 I can pretend that a 2005 Z06 is actually a 2010 since she’ll never be able to tell the difference. Choose your battles!

Too many M's > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:51

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1. Valve guides need looked at. My friend DIY’d it on his car, not rocket science and he turned many laps on the Nurburgring without mechanical fail.

2. Without some extra experience the car will initially want to kill you. Traction control will certainly let you get into trouble if you aren’t careful, don’t expect the same safety net you had with the WRX.

3. Having said that, you can drive it like a granny at first and see your true improvements as a driver if you can leave it stock. The platform is very capable on its own and will be very rewarding once you can harness it. ONLY then would I consider upgrades/improvements. Fix the nut behind the wheel before you mess with the ones on the car.

fourvalleys > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver 11/04/2015 at 15:52

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Amen. If you’re looking at replacing the WRX with a Z06, you’re crazy. Again, don’t track it if you can’t afford to wreck it.

If you’re looking at buying the Z06 in addition to the WRX... you’re still crazy. Spend a lot less, pick up a used Spec Miata, and drive it until you’re chasing everyone down. It’ll be a lot more forgiving and you’ll end up a much better driver because of it, I promise. Parts will be a whole lot cheaper, too.

I’ve found the most impressive drivers (read: most consistent) are those who started in slow cars and nailed the basics. Some of them end up in faster cars, but others stay in their slow cars... with a fast driver.

If you’re just doing HPDEs though, you shouldn’t be too worried about being fast... worry about having a good time. Becoming a better driver will help you have a much better time.

JR1 > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:54

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OMG DO IT!!!!! Z06 IS LIFE!!!! 428 CUBIC INCH PIECE OF AMERICAN EXCELLENCE!!!!!!

Baeromez > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:56

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Dude, if your mom is dictating your car choice, then you may want to take a step back and reevaluate your entire life.

Too many M's > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 15:57

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TBH why does it matter? Is she so into cars that she would know the difference between a C5 and C6?

Buy what you want. Just learn how to drive it properly, but know you will eventually crash it on track. It’s not an “if” it’s “when”.

Needmoargarage > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 16:08

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My dad owns a C6 Z06 that he bought wrecked and now uses purely for the track. As mentioned, valve guides are an issue. His transmission went out after the 2nd track day and that needed to be rebuilt. Also, differential issues are common.

I’ve driven this car thru several track days and it still scares me. There is very little warning that you are about to lose it. It will spin (easily) with traction control enabled if you don’t know what you are doing. Coming from a WRX will be alarming and if you are unfamiliar with RWD cars at the limit, there will be a learning curve. Additionally, your consumables (tires, brakes, etc) will be quite expensive compared to other cars.

Unless you are very experienced on track or honestly 100% ok with being passed by Miatas for a season or two while you learn under the supervision of an instructor, I wouldn’t recommend a Z06. Also, as I mentioned in another post of yours, it would be risky pushing this car without a full roll cage. All that being said, they are amazing performance machines for the money and a lot of fun to drive!

Cherry_man1 > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 16:09

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How set are you on a corvette? Because you could get a BOSS 302 and have a happy medium.

uofime-2 > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 16:27

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I think moving so quickly to such a high powered rwd car might present an even higher risk. Though as you suggested, your mother may fail to recognize that.

Textured Soy Protein > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 16:28

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I can tell you that the base C6 suspension is pretty soft and the brakes are ok but not amazing.

If you’re looking at LS3 cars I’d go for an ’08-’09 Z51 which has a bit stiffer suspension, bigger (but not Z06 big) brakes, and assorted other upgrades.

The Grand Sport has the widebody from the Z06 but a steel frame not aluminum, Z06 brakes, stiffer suspension, shorter gearing, dry sump oiling, etc. But since they came out in ’10 you might be paying as much or more as an older Z06.

marshknute > Needmoargarage 11/04/2015 at 16:34

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I think you have the winning response here. I will probably end up getting a base Vette and save the $5K for repairs/preventative maintenance, but you’ve now given me sufficient food for thought to scare me away from the Z06!

The fact that the traction control still allows you to screw up worries me.

Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 16:54

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I understand the desire to own a vette, but if its going to be primarily a track car the C5 Z06 is actually better than the C6 version.

RallyWrench > crowmolly 11/04/2015 at 18:09

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TIL, thanks for that.

Axial > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 19:01

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Absolutely do not do it. Don’t even buy the more pedestrian C6.

Corvettes handle great, but they do not ease you into the limit. They’ll be nice and communicative right up until you hit 10/10ths and now you are in the wall. By your own description, you do not have what it takes to handle even a C5 at the limit. If you must have RWD, buy a Miata, an L98-equipped C4, an SN95 Mustang, or pretty much anything that’s relatively tame in the power department but has good to great handling characteristics and won’t run you up more than $8000 or so. Shit, try a Fiero; buy an ‘85-’87 GT for peanuts and mod the suspension to be better than the ‘88 GT.

But whatever you do, do not buy a 350+ HP Corvette right off the bat, especially if you are still relying on AWD to save your butt.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 19:05

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Car nannies aren’t the end all save all. You need to be able to control be car without them.

There are many stories of people jumping into new to them cars with more horsepower and bite, who crash on their first lap; because they got in over their head too fast.

Keep the WRX and work on driver mod, you'll be better off for it.

Lathrash > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 20:00

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I recently sold my 2008 Base Corvette (with Z51 package) that I tracked about 6 times or so. I can’t say that I ever felt like I needed more power on the track. The LS3 had more power than I could generally use, but that didn’t stop me from wanting a Z06. That said, if you’re not careful, both cars have enough power to quickly get you into trouble.

Be sure to factor in track prep costs into your budget (get valve work done on the Z06 if it is out of warranty and it hasn’t been done yet). The running costs for the Z06 (pads, rotors, tires, etc.) will be more than the base Corvette as well. The only changes I made to my base Z51 car were MPSS tires, ST-43 pads, Centric non-drilled rotors, and a larger Z06 oil cooler. Those changes, along with a more aggressive alignment, were enough to keep me happy.

To help with the poor bolstering on the stock seats, I’d also recommend trying out Angel Pads by Angel Wings Tech. It’s not nearly the same as upgrading to a dedicated racing seat, but if you plan to use the car as a weekend/daily and want to keep the stock seat, they help.

Some options I would recommend looking for when purchasing are... Z51 (if it’s not a Z06 obviously), NO navigation (it’s old and dated), and HUD (heads-up display). Also keep an eye out for bad harmonic balancers that wobble. They are a week point on LSX motors. Mine developed a very slight wobble, so I replaced it with a stock size ATI damper.

Overall, they are great cars out of the box. Buy one, change all the fluids, put some track brakes on, and have fun.

I sold my car because, for me, it was too expensive of a car for to track. I bought track day insurance each time I tracked it (not cheap). I’m planning on replacing with with something cheaper (Miata?) that I don’t have to worry about nearly as much.

marshknute > Little Black Coupe Turned Silver 11/04/2015 at 20:40

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Unfortunately, the WRX isn’t trackworthy with the stock tune. The turbo overboosts after 2 laps and engages the fuel cutoff.

It's fixable, but only by messing with the ECU and voiding the warranty. I'm not opposed to mods, but I really don't like the idea of doing power mods and stressing the engine beyond factory spec.

Needmoargarage > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 22:09

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Probably smart. 5K in tires will go much faster than you think :)

bob and john > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 22:59

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“I had to overdrive the WRX to keep up with the rest of the Porsche Club, and the car saved my ass every time I went into a turn too hot.”

so lets dump the safe car and get into something with another 200 HP and 2 less driven wheels.

are you even listening to yourself?

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 23:05

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You’ll be better off getting skill in something slower, that won’t kill you if you screw up.

I like old RWD Volvos as learner track cars. They handle well, they’re fairly safe, and honestly, more horsepower just means you’ll hit the wall faster.

Alternative learner track cars: Fiat 124, Yugo GV, BMW E30, Datsun 510, MG Midget... Basically, something light and slow, so you can learn things like car control, first. Preferably with rock-hard all season tires, so you actually have to think about what you’re doing. Minimum treadwear: 600.

bob and john > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 23:05

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...SO TUNE IT. its a hell of a lot less expensive then buy a vette, crashing it, having to deal with hospital, no car, angry wife, etc etc etc.

bob and john > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 23:12

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...your mother is dictating your car choice.....

dude. how old are you again?

911e46z06 > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 23:20

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C6 z06 owner here. It’s definitely scary. It has a ton of power, and it will try to bite you from time to time when you push it hard. Even just driving around town, you’ll accidentally spin the tires from time to time.

That said, fuck it dude, go for it. Once you get a feel for the car, you can control the crazy. It’ll usually break loose and slide wide on you around corners, so you learn to be ready for it and correct before it happens. You’ll also figure out that you always have enough power to brute force your way out of trouble. If you’re anything like me, you’ll never be skilled enough to drive it to it’s full potential, but you can still drive it safely and have a metric shit ton of fun doing it.

But get good insurance. Just in case.

Mine’s been pretty reliable. I had a little clutch master cylinder issue this year, and Chevy actually fixed it for free, which was cool and unexpected for an 8 year old car. Other than that its been solid. Mine’s low mileage though. But yeah, the plain vanilla c6 will definitely be more reliable.

JGrabowMSt > marshknute 11/04/2015 at 23:24

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That generation Z06 is an animal, but remember that you have to really rail on it at 10/10ths to really reach its limits.

Fluids, tires and brakes will get you almost there. Caging the car will be the big step. Get a car thats a little roughed up to begin with, it will be more mechanically sound and you’ll be less concerned with bumps and scuffs on the track, because they will happen.

If the car has a defect, it will rear its ugly head. Just be concerned with service records and an owner that was happy with the car. Someone willing to talk about the history of the car can be worth way more than someone asking for less money.

GTRZILLAR32-Now saving for Godzilla and a condo > marshknute 11/05/2015 at 00:13

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Why not a C5 Z06?

Axial > marshknute 11/05/2015 at 02:13

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Keep in mind, the valve guide problem is one of those “happens out of the blue” type of things and doesn’t really have a probability correlating with miles on the car. It’s not like the IMS bearing issue on a 996 where it’s well-documented and preventable. GM barely even acknowledges that this problem exists.

Axial > Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight 11/05/2015 at 02:18

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Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? Off the cuff, I can’t think of anything about the C5 Z06 that makes it a superior track option outside of being less expensive to acquire in the first place.

Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight > Axial 11/05/2015 at 03:20

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Balance, suspension,power-to-weight, brake bias, wheels/tires, and more. The C5 Z06 is a much more efficient and effective track car than the C6. For example, the C5 Z06 tends to dominate the SCCA Autocross AS class, whereas, the C6s in the higher horsepower SS class are mid range finishers. And yes, parts, tires, and expendables are cheaper.

Axial > Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight 11/05/2015 at 08:35

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Interesting. Do those advantages actually translate to results on a full-size road-course as well?

marshknute > bob and john 11/05/2015 at 09:06

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24. But surely you can sympathize with having a crazy nervous mother who’s barely okay with the idea of you driving 100+ mph on a racetrack.

As long as I stick with something modern, I’ll stay on her good graces...barely! Just don’t tell her it’s actually faster than a C5!

I also don’t really like the C5.

Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight > Axial 11/05/2015 at 16:40

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We are talking about a PDX/HPDE novice safely trying to move up thru Intermediate to Advanced and learning the most about car control. If you think you’re gonna achieve 11/10 fron the car, maybe you should stick with the WRX. I met one person in 5 years of amateur racing that could and that was 8/10 of her skill level after over 20 years (needless to say, I finally convinced her to be my mentor). Anyone can crash a car due to poor technique, but few take the car beyond its limits and when they do they can easily mod the car to increase that threshold.

With all that said, with the right tires and brakes, yes.

Axial > Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight 11/05/2015 at 19:40

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The conversation moved on from the original post (and I’m not the original poster...I already have a Corvette and I don’t track it because I’m still at go-kart level), I was asking purely out of academic interest.