So talk me out of it Oppo....997.1 911TT or keep the M4

"Too many M's" (toomanyms) 10/28/2015 at 06:02 • Filed to: None

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Winter is upon us and I get the car shopping bug. It truly is the season that people want to unload sports cars for cheaper than the upcoming spring.

Let me start by saying the M4 is a great car. As I have said in my !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . But I have always wanted to cross over to the Porsche dark side since I was a wee lad. And price comparison inspired by Tavarish’s “why buy a new GTI when you can get a V10 ‘something’ for the same price” has led me back to the P-car hunt.

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Cars like !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! are becoming cheaper every day and I think will be future classics in their own right. Maybe not quite to the 993 level, but of the modern cars from this century they are quite handsome.

So please, tell me not to buy it.

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Or am I crazy to have not bought ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) one already?

E92M3 > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 06:36

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It’s up to you. I will tell you I think the 997’s are close to the bottom of their depreciation curve. The M4 on the otherhand has a longggg way to go. So you could get the 911 bug out of your system, enjoy one for a few years without it costing you much money. I was fortunate enough to be able to drive my friends 997 GT3 over the summer for 3 months and get the bug out of my system. If I could stretch and buy one now I would. Because they are the last manual GT3, they are already appreciated by enthusiasts as the watercooled 911 to have. If one could afford the entry price, it wouldn’t cost much to own besides consumables. So a $85k 911 that you could sell for the same price in 5 years, or a new $80k M4 that you could sell for $40k in 5 years? What’s it going to be?

Too many M's > E92M3 10/28/2015 at 07:14

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I would love to get a GT3, 996 or a 997. I just read your review from the one this summer, that’s a serious piece of hardware your friend had. Price will most certainly go up on nearly every one unless you believe in the upcoming P-car market bubble. My only drawback is the lack of a backseat (as pretend as the Turbo one might be). I want to share gearhead moments with the kiddos so I’d rather spend the lion’s share of my car budget on something with that in mind. I can pickup a beater $10-15k track car for actual racing jollies. And yes, I heard $10-15k immediately quadrupling once real W2W takes place.

But yes, the M4 will most assuradely depreciate like a rock soon enough. I’ve listed it for sale locally to see what offers I get if any. Like I said, it’s coming up to winter so who’s buying sporty cars? :D

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 09:10

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I’m with you on having a car I can share with the kids. I’ve seen some 997 GT3 owners retrofit a back seat into their cars, fwiw.

Is it reading too much into the fact that you’re willing to let it go to say that you feel like the M4 is less “special” than the previous generations of M3?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 09:30

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My answer is Suzuki Every Joy Pop Turbo

BKRM3 > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 10:27

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I, too, have a lingering and yet-unsatisfied lust for a 911. A 997 of one flavor or another is on my must-have list (C2S with aero kit would be the bomb!), but just can’t bring myself to sell my E90 M3 to get one. I can’t quite put my finger on what’s keeping me from doing it, other than I love the S65 engine so much and, where I live, an E90 M3 is vastly rarer than any 997. I think - and this may be a significant departure from your situation with the new and readily available M4 - my hesitation is that I just know I’ll be sorry the moment I sell the M3, even if I love its P car replacement just as much.

I have a truck so I don’t need the M’s utility, I have a spec E46 race car, so I don’t need it for the track anymore either... Sigh.

Anyway, no, I can’t and won’t talk you out of it. In fact, the gray one you linked that’s posted in NJ and has 20k miles on it makes me want to drive over there and take it for a spin.

Financially, you’re not going to lose your shirt on any 997. In terms of opportunity cost (losing M4 seat time), well, you could always get back into one when the prices plummet as they inevitably will. There will be plenty out there optioned as yours is.

There’s only one way to quiet the 911 demons, and you have the garage space to do it with Ms in reserve. Do it...and write about it here. =)

Too many M's > BKRM3 10/28/2015 at 11:17

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Yes, for the longest I just wanted a GT3 either 996 or 997 but that has gone by the wayside for now with crib midgets. It’s important to me to share the gearhead life.

I hear you on selling the E90, the one I have is my second one and I’m sure I’d regret selling this one as I did my first. I could only do it if I could find a decent slick-top with the same options I have now or less. No easy task but they’re out there. I don’t have a truck (only an environment killing TDI Sportwagen) so the utility of it is key in my life right now.

You’re doing SpecE46? That’s what I want to get into when I eventually move back to the states. It’s a shame they don’t allow Euro models in the class because I would definitely import a 330 touring under the “racing car” clause.

I agree that at this point I could easily get back into an M4 if I really wanted to. I think the opportunity to get into anything in the 997 gen at a decent point in the depreciation curve is quickly disolving and I should act as soon as I can. And when I do, I will most certianly share all the tales here. :D

Too many M's > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 10/28/2015 at 11:19

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I’ve thought about the GT3 retrofit, but the 997TT is a little easier to find and acquire for now. At least until the supposed “911 bubble” bursts.

The M4 is a very special car in its own right, it’s just not special enough to curb my craving for a 911 :D

B_dol > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 11:30

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Variety is the spice of life, I think you have lived the //M life long enough and have some prime examples. Keep the older M3s, pick up a 911 and enough the agile/scalpel nature of the drive.

I vote GTS over turbo, just a more unique car (if we are talking 997)

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 11:43

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Hahaha, and letting someone else take the depreciation hit is always a good idea.

E92M3 > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 11:54

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In that case get a turbo. It won’t be as sought after as the GT3, but it will be the next in line. Just look at what 930 turbos have done. I don’t think there’s much of a bubble for good examples. Prices may ease on 930/964’s with 150k miles, and a respray, but there’s only so many pristine (lower mileage) 911’s out there.

BKRM3 > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 12:55

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Sounds like you’re headed in the right direction! Can’t wait to read about it!

SE46 is really shaping up here. Donors are cheap and plentiful (ours was $2,000) and the full builds come out somewhere in the neighborhood of $30k (although you could easily spend $50k if you wanted all the high end bells and whistles). The class is becoming very widely recognized, and I think my first wheel to wheel racing will be a handful of sprints with the BMW CCA to go from “rookie” to “full” competition license. I just completed the BMW CCA club racing school a month or so ago and am eager to get started with actual race seat time. Our car is far from “done,” but I don’t really care if I win, I just want to get out there. Our SE46 will likely head toward endurance racing when it’s “complete” - my co-owner has no real interest in sprints and I tend to agree that enduros offer more excitement for the time and money invested.

There is some European series that is based on the 330i, although the SE46 rules are very specific (as you’d imagine) and I doubt it’s possible to build a car that could run in either without being cost prohibitive. Sad about not being able to use wagons in SE46, but we got as close as we could - we have a 2001 steel gray sedan =)

Just move back to the states already and come racing with us!

Too many M's > BKRM3 10/28/2015 at 13:43

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Fantastic! The language barrier is a bit prohibitive in some cases when it comes to W2W racing unles you’re dropping serious dough. A seat in an E36 M3 race car for the 24hrs,of the Nurburgring can land you around 2/3s the price of a SE46 build. Not including the license. Crazy to justify at my skill level right now. Shorter races can be a lot more reasonable depending on class, still working that language thing.

Endurance races would be a blast, not sure where we’re moving to back in the states but hopefully there’s a large enough run group of the class to make it fun. W2W in any form will be such fun.

Mid-2017 is our current return window, still looking for the rare US 330i/ci donor car in this neck of the woods :D

BKRM3 > Too many M's 10/28/2015 at 14:01

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I suggest you immediately join the Spec E46 facebook group to follow the action. It is an active and awesome group. By mid-2017, there should be a healthy SE46 field no matter where you end up geographically within the lower 48. I don’t think I’ve seen any Alaskan or Hawaiian builds, so I would try to avoid relocation to either of those places lol! Have you checked out any of the onboard video from SE46 races on YouTube? There’s a lot of it, and I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. In fact, if you were curious about the club racing school atmosphere, I put up a few videos from the on-track sessions from last month’s school. Same YT username as here. (disclaimer: the car was on utterly ruined stock suspension and nursing a host of other issues, so my goal was to drive slow and finish, rather than to drive quickly and break something - either way, you get the idea of what the school is like (just not an accurate depiction of how fast an SE46 can be!))

Too many M's > BKRM3 10/28/2015 at 14:21

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I’m there! I joined a while ago and have been stoked about the class since I first saw the sub-forum on E46fanatics a while back. I asked about the touring body a while back and was let down easily by the group.

I may have mentioned before but I had considered the GTS class as an all-rounder but the budgets there are so crazy. I could almost buy an old MIG and fly cheaper than having a car in GTS3/4

Too many M's > E92M3 10/28/2015 at 17:33

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True enough, I can still hope for a bubble. It’ll keep my dreams of finding a nice early 70s air cooled without selling all my organs alive.

I don’t plan on letting anything I purchase sit still though, it will definitely get driven. I do fear though that it will be the tip of the P-car iceberg. I must own an air-cooled as well. I’ll be going for the deal when I buy and not hope for appreciation in value.

Too many M's > B_dol 10/29/2015 at 02:49

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True enough.

Interesting suggestion on the GTS. I’d given that model some thought but it slipped my mind recently. I’m not a fan of the centerlock wheels but maybe I should revisit it. I saw it as more of a softer GT3 and maybe that could fit my needs. Good call, it certainly is a special car in its own right.

BKRM3 > Too many M's 10/29/2015 at 07:38

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No doubt. Once you go beyond GTS2 forget about it. Same thing with the higher hp BMW CCA Club Racing modified classes. Bunch of widebody E36es with built S54 swaps in C mod. No thanks, I’d rather buy a 911 for the street. Of course, those guys probably already have one or two. It’s all relative, right?

Too many M's > BKRM3 10/29/2015 at 08:06

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S54 swapped E36s are quite the business though. A friend had one as his track toy and it totally dominated. I broke something about once a month but when it drove it was something to behold.

Yeah, a lot of those guys have a seriously awesome garage already. For the alternate baller status there’s also Spec 996, I haven’t kept up with them in quite a while.

BKRM3 > Too many M's 10/29/2015 at 08:48

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Spec 996 exists!? Out of my budget at present, but thanks for the heads up. It’s obvious how I’m going to be spending the 15 minutes during which I’ll be inhaling lunch at my desk today... Sigh.

Too many M's > BKRM3 10/29/2015 at 10:18

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Hahaha, well it seems it USED to. This was the website:

www.996specracing.com

And that appears to have fallen into disrepair. I haven’t really seen anything new about it in a couple years.

BKRM3 > Too many M's 10/29/2015 at 12:45

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Not enough ballers out there LOL! Won’t happen with SE46, I guarantee it, cause we’re ballin’ on a budget. In addition to guys who are new to racing but always thought the E46 would make a tremendously good looking race car (myself included), there are plenty of SE30 dudes looking to skip over the mess that has become SE36. SE30 fields are huge, but the platform is so old now (and so restricted in spec form) that a significant number of racers are migrating our way.