Trans Pacific Partnership Deal Reached.

"Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis" (Dwhite95) 10/05/2015 at 12:12 • Filed to: None

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Anyone know if they were able to kill the chicken tax in the final deal?

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Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:17

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This is a wonderful idea.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:18

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Im not sure but if I had to guess I’d say no

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:19

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Pretty sure I just saw UN troops ushering in the New World Order a moment ago.

davedave1111 > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:21

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Fantastic news. What a giant ‘fuck you’ to the neo-racists who opposed it. If I understand correctly it should mean the end of the chicken tax - but hopefully an awful lot more than that.

davedave1111 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/05/2015 at 12:22

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Nonono, they were ushering in New Order, who are here to play World in Motion.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:25

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We won’t know because it was negotiated in secret! This sucks, the whole deal is a scam for corporate profits at the expense of us regular people.

spanfucker retire bitch > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:37

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I’m not really angry about the fact that it was negotiated on behind closed doors - every diplomatic and multi-national agreement is done in that manner, with the details being released as it’s time for Congress to vote on it.

My issue is that every leak that has come out has shown stupidly strong IP laws that these other nations will be forced to enforce for both entertainment and pharmaceutical industries.

jariten1781 > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:39

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Good luck getting Congress to approve it as is.

Nice thing is, though, the chicken tax was implemented via executive order so Mr. President, if he sticks to his previous behavior, will eventually get fed up and implement whatever pieces do not require Congressional approval out of spite (for better or worse).

So yeah, I’d say you can start the chicken tax death watch now...but it’ll have a long death rattle...last I read it would be a 20+ year phase out so I wouldn’t roll down to your local Toyota dealer and put a deposit down on a Hilux just yet.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > davedave1111 10/05/2015 at 12:42

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I’m sure as fuck not singing for Engerland.

Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/05/2015 at 12:46

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‘Bout damn time they stepped in!

davedave1111 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/05/2015 at 12:49

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OK, you can do the rap bit...

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 12:54

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Oh, do I hope so.

Step 1: Take WRX FA20DIT engine.

Step 2: Take WRX STI 6MT-DCCD + R180-Torsen drivetrain. (only optional HT-CVT or 5EAT-VTD automatic, not standard)

Step 3: Take XV Crosstrek body, cut the rear roof off, convert rear panel to tailgate. Remove rear door frames entirely. Lengthen front side doors to coupe-length, with lower, flatter roof, and rake the B-pillars a bit to create BRAT-style body.

Step 4: Take B5-TPH concept’s rear hatch format and apply with a tool-less disconnecting hinge, and less invasive rear fastening surface, making it a removable top. Perhaps with a soft-top alternative option. The door shape isn’t that terrible, either. (THROW AWAY most of the rest of B5-TPH’s styling.)

Step 5: stir in long-throw Bilstein coil-over dampers, Monoblock brakes, Outback or Tribeca-spec, or even better wheel bearings and 5x114.3 hubs.

Step 6: Mix thoroughly and bake into a production-ready product. Finish in World Rally Blue Pearl with gold wheels with good mud&snow rated tires that don’t balk at mild trail and open ground driving.

Step 7: build it and distribute it properly, including North America, hopefully without the impediment of the Chicken Tax.

Step 8: ???

Step 9: PROFIT.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > davedave1111 10/05/2015 at 13:15

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You’re going to have to explain that... How is it racist to oppose a secret trade deal? The stuff that has been leaked about IP and copywrite stuff is really bad

DrJohannVegas > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 13:20

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I’m scouring the leaked 2013 draft for it, and there have been a few reports to the effect of “no tariffs on manufactured imports”, but the TPP would only affect Japanese truck imports. Given that the number of light trucks now built in Japan is relatively low, I doubt it will have much of an effect.

davedave1111 > Santiago of Escuderia Boricua 10/05/2015 at 13:21

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No, a few neo-racists have tried to portray it as a bad thing. The reality is that free trade is (part of) the one thing that we know actually makes poor people richer, and the TTP is a very good thing unless one has a problem with poor people getting richer because most poor people aren’t ‘white’. Sure, I doubt it’s perfect, but it’s overwhelmingly positive.

Really, the opposition to it and the TTIP, and things like the ‘Fight for Fifteen’ ethnic-cleansing campaign are all just part of the rather worrying rise of neo-racism in the west. Make no mistake, the racists are genuinely worried about ‘the darkies’ getting richer and are doing everything they can to stop it. They’ve somehow managed to get the more left-leaning parties to go along with it, and so it’s slipped under the radar of most people who’d oppose it.

nermal > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 14:59

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If I’m reading correctly, it’s a maybe on the Chicken Tax. It would depend on if one agreement can supercede the other, or if automobiles are excluded.

Best case scenario that I’m seeing is that there would be no Chicken Tax on vehicles from countries included in the agreement - So basically Japan and Austrailia. That means you could get a Toyota Hilux, but not a VW Amarok. Also, just because there’s no extra tax doesn’t mean that the designs won’t get shot down due to emissions or safety regs.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 15:38

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“It would also cut tariffs on Japanese vehicles exported to the United States, but over a period of time expected to be 20 years or more.”

Early feedback from Business Rags. Unfortunately, I’d suggest taking the over on this one.

The Compromiser > Dwhite - Powered by Caffeine, Daft Punk, and Corgis 10/05/2015 at 19:03

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No. From what I hear they are more focused on killing the manufacturing sector....

davedave1111 > Santiago of Escuderia Boricua 10/05/2015 at 21:37

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If you accept that free trade helps poor people - and there’s endless evidence to that effect - then conjuring up bullshit reasons to oppose it is only going to be racist, right?

In which case, the question becomes ‘are the reasons bullshit?’, and they are. The whole secrecy nonsense is just a complete twisting of how things work - and have worked for decades/centuries.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > davedave1111 10/05/2015 at 21:50

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Thats... not how that works. Being against something as complicated as this because it *might* help poor people (in other countries, at the expense of our poor and middle class) doesn’t automatically make someone racist.

I’ll just copy what Bernie Sanders sent out about it, since he’s more eloquent that I am:

The TPP follows in the footsteps of other unfettered free trade agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA that have been supported by corporate America and that cost America millions of decent-paying jobs.

Since 2001, nearly 60,000 manufacturing plants in this country have been shut down, and we have lost almost 5 million decent-paying manufacturing jobs. NAFTA alone led to the loss of almost three-quarters of a million jobs — the Permanent Normalized Trade Agreement with China cost America four times that number: almost 3 million jobs. These agreements are not the only reason why manufacturing in the United States has declined, but they are important factors.

The TPP would also give multinational corporations the ability to challenge laws passed in the United States that could negatively impact their “expected future profits.” Take, for example, a French waste management firm suing Egypt for over $100 million for increasing the minimum wage and improving labor laws. Egypt’s “crime” in this case is trying to improve life for their low-wage workers. Or Vattenfall, a Swedish energy company, has used this process to sue Germany for $5 billion over its decision to phase out nuclear power. Should the people of Germany have the right to make energy choices on their own or should these decisions be left in the hands of an unelected international tribunal?

davedave1111 > Santiago of Escuderia Boricua 10/05/2015 at 22:06

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“ Being against something as complicated as this because it *might* help poor people (in other countries, at the expense of our poor and middle class) doesn’t automatically make someone racist.”

It’s not complicated at all. The pretence that it is is the bit that’s racist bullshit.

“ it *might* help poor people (in other countries, at the expense of our poor and middle class)“

And that’s also just a racist lie you’ve been fed. It’ll help the poor in the US and in poor countries, who are overwhelmingly more replete with melanin than the treaty’s opponents. It’ll have a negligibly negative impact on the US middle class, who are in the top 2-3% globally. Opposition to the treaty can be summed up as simply as that those opposing it are unwilling to trade an unnoticeable loss in America for a massive humanitarian gain in other countries.

As for Bernie Sanders, I give the man a pass because he does seem to mean well. He really needs to learn something about economics, though, because he keeps picking these plans which have the opposite effect to what he intends.

That said, he’s still a politician. Did you know that despite what he says, US manufacturing output has actually risen? Fewer people, more products - that’s economic progress.

Trade never affects the number of jobs in an economy, only what they are - that’s standard economics in all schools. And the benefits of trade are imports, not exports - again, accepted by everyone.

Import tariffs benefit the workers in those industries at the expense of everyone else.

Finally, he has a rant about a treaty that says countries will all abide by the law. I know the US commonly acts like it can tell everyone else what to do, but that’s not going to wash. If you want other governments to sign up to a treaty that says they won’t steal the assets of US companies, you’re going to have to say the same in return - and that sbould be nothing more than a formality, unless the US is about to start stealing companies.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > davedave1111 10/05/2015 at 22:13

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1) A multinational trade agreement between a dozen countries is very complicated

2) You’ll need to give me sources on this shit, because you sound like a conspiracy theorist

Sweet Trav > davedave1111 10/05/2015 at 22:23

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You sir are full of shit and have literally no goddamned clue what you are talking about. On the other hand, I have a degree in Political Science, focusing on Public Law and Policy.

The cost of global labor will only equalize to the low side. This is a proven fact. You may say that these are making poor people less poor, but they are still destitute. They are subject to unsafe working conditions, environmental hazards, and instead of being part of a local economy, now become players in a fickle global economy.

Organized labor in the United States has created the middle class. Organized Labor in Europe has created the middle class. The governmental systems in these emerging countries in the pacific rim will never allow for labor to organize, they will be kept under the heel of an oppressive government, that values profit at all cost. Why we would sign other countries up for the “Gilded Age America Experience” is a humanitarian tragedy.

I’m sorry but you know fuck all about global politics and even less about economics.

davedave1111 > Sweet Trav 10/06/2015 at 09:24

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“ On the other hand, I have a degree in Political Science, focusing on Public Law and Policy.”

Sure, and the moon is made of green cheese. Pull the other one.

“ The cost of global labor will only equalize to the low side. This is a proven fact.”

No, it’s directly contrary to the empirical evidence - an outright falsehood, in other words. It’s also contrary to the economic theories of every, widely different, school of economics. In other words, it’s total bollocks that you’ve either swallowed credulously or made up yourself for nefarious reasons. Or are you going to deny that, for example, Chinese factory workers have seen their wages rise by 500% in less than a decade?

“ You may say that these are making poor people less poor, but they are still destitute.”

Increasingly, no. That’s what making people less poor does. The numbers on a dollar a day have been slashed in the last couple of decades. Those terrible mass famines in Africa we used to see on the news every year or two simply don’t happen anymore, and so-on. The only people who deny or oppose the measures that have led to that are racists, plain and simple.

“ instead of being part of a local economy, now become players in a fickle global economy.”

Yes, that’s right, they get richer, stop starving to death, aren’t exposed to the same risks of weather and natural disasters. Your lot really hate the idea that ‘darkies’ might stop dying, huh?

“ Organized labor in the United States has created the middle class. Organized Labor in Europe has created the middle class.”

That’s really laughably stupid. I mean, just rolling in the aisles ridiculous. By definition, organised labour is working class. That’s what the ‘labour’ part fucking means, you stupid racist bastard.

“ The governmental systems in these emerging countries in the pacific rim will never allow for labor to organize, they will be kept under the heel of an oppressive government”

And now you’re just being nakedly racist about those ‘funny little yellow men’.

“ Why we would sign other countries up for the “Gilded Age America Experience” is a humanitarian tragedy.”

And here we go again. The only way one can possibly describe it as a humanitarian tragedy is if one finds it tragic that darker-skinned Americans have had at least some chances to claw their way out of the crushing poverty you want for them.

Just give up, you lot fought a civil war a long time ago about this, and your side lost: slavery is not acceptable, we’re not going back there however much you try to argue in favour of it.

davedave1111 > Santiago of Escuderia Boricua 10/06/2015 at 09:40

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1) All things are relative, of course. It’s more complicated than this reply, obviously, but not actually particularly complicated compared to, say, Sarbannes-Oxley or some such. I meant the overall picture, though, which is really very simple: the net benefits are overwhelming, even if some things are less than optimal.

2) Which bit do you want sourced? The economics? That’s all completely standard stuff, I can point you to some decent stuff on the subject but you’ll want to read around on your own.

Other than that, we’re looking at demographic data and so-on. I recommend Branko Milanovic for a first look.

http://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttal…

Tim Worstall’s good for explanations, although he’s a journo/blogger, not an actual economist.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/09/28/ine…

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst…

But we do need to distinguish between that real absolute poverty and inequality. Because globalisation demands that we do. There’s still some half a billion people out there living in that $1.25 a day real, absolute, poverty. And there’s a billion or so more not far above it. If we’re going to be concerned about poverty maybe this is what we should be thinking about? And globalisation is what has led to the largest fall in such poverty in the history of our species. Really, more people have climbed up out of this destitution in the past 35 years than in all the millennia before that. You can check this by looking at Angus Maddison’s figures here . The average lifestyle of the average human being really has been, until very recently, a dollar or two a day.

A little note about Maddison’s figures: they’re GDP per capita, not incomes. But GDP per capita is at least a guide to incomes. The majority of the population cannot have lifestyles higher than that per capita number. They are also inflation adjusted and also PPP adjusted. This means that we’re taking account of price differences across geography and also across time. So, if we say that GDP per capita in the past was around $600 a year (which it was) we really are saying that that’s the same as having a dollar or two a day in the modern US. You get to stand in Walmart with a $10 bill to pay for everything for a week. And you’ve got to feed, clothe, house and heat yourself out of that single $10. For a week. That is what that real absolute poverty is and it is how people lived through most of history and all too many do still today.

This is, quite obviously, something very different from the inequality that people complain of in the rich countries today. Where people might have less than others but have $40 a day to provide for themselves. And the importance of this difference is that globalisation, the biggest by far contributor to that fall in absolute poverty, also leads to a rise in inequality in the rich countries.

That last one, the rest of the article isn’t really to the point, but this bit about historic poverty definitely is.

Sweet Trav > davedave1111 10/06/2015 at 10:24

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Hmm.

Times you vaguely cited “racism” as a motive -6

Times you cited a source for your misinformed banter - 0

So here are some sources for you about what “free” trade actually does.

http://s2.epi.org/files/page/-/o…

https://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFT…

http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/document…

What we know actually works for transforming poor countries is the Japanese Model of Economics, while not perfect, protects workers, builds companies, fosters Japanese innovation and raised a post war Japan to an economic superpower in less than 30 years.

The TPP is simply going to set these pacific rim countries up for years and years of exploitation in the name of unbridled greed, unrestrained capitalism and the wanton destruction of our environment and wage slavery. The TPP offers no worker protections, it does not outlaw child labor, it does not offer any environmental protections, it does not offer minimum wages. The TPP uses workers up and spits them out, for pennies an hour.

Again, You know fuck all about global politics and economics. Go to school, get informed. Learn a thing or two, until then stop spouting nonsense and misinformation.

davedave1111 > Sweet Trav 10/06/2015 at 10:30

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So you’ve lost the argument when facts came up and now you’re going to flat-out lies? Yup, neo-racist through and through. Thanks for demonstrating my point about your real motivations here.

“ The TPP is simply going to set these pacific rim countries up for years and years of exploitation in the name of unbridled greed, unrestrained capitalism and the wanton destruction of our environment and wage slavery.”

Oh, right, now you’re doubling down and adding antisemitic conspiracy theories too.

It’s hilarious for you to try to claim I don’t know what I’m talking about at the same time as you spout untruths from every orifice.

Sweet Trav > davedave1111 10/06/2015 at 10:53

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You claim what i have said is untrue but have shown 0 evidence to the contrary, on the other hand i have provided scholarly articles and sources. You call me a racist and a liar, whilst adding nothing substantive to the discussion.

Good to know you support a trade program the reduces human trafficing and child labor to misdemeanors.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-sorscher/…

The less the facts are known the stronger the opinion. Pretty clear you literally know nothing about this issue, but im going to give you the chase to prove you do.

Answer me these questions: What job safety protections does the TPP mandate for the member countries? What environmental protections does the TPP mandate for the member countries? What if any, minimum wage is set by the TPP for member countries? What if any, level of workers compensation in the event of workplace injury is required for member countries? What level of healthcare, if any is required for member countries?

yamahog > davedave1111 10/06/2015 at 10:56

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I’m only seeing one person providing sources, champ.

davedave1111 > yamahog 10/06/2015 at 10:59

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Well, you should try reading the whole thread, then. I provided sources for all of these things, but maybe the racist shithead has dismissed them to try and make his propaganda look better. I encourage you to google for yourself rather than take any one source as evidence.

davedave1111 > Sweet Trav 10/06/2015 at 11:03

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“ You claim what i have said is untrue but have shown 0 evidence to the contrary”

That’s just a flat-out lie. Every time I’ve replied to you with evidence, you’ve dismissed the comment.

“ on the other hand i have provided scholarly articles and sources.”

And that’s another easily checked lie. You’re fucking flagrant.

“ Good to know you support a trade program the reduces human trafficing and child labor to misdemeanors.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-sorscher/… ”

And... lying again. Try to stick to something approaching the truth, why don’t you?

“ Answer me these questions: What job safety protections does the TPP mandate for the member countries? What environmental protections does the TPP mandate for the member countries? What if any, minimum wage is set by the TPP for member countries? What if any, level of workers compensation in the event of workplace injury is required for member countries? What level of healthcare, if any is required for member countries?”

What on earth does that pile of irrelevancy have to do with anything? Stop trying to distract from your vile racist ranting.

yamahog > davedave1111 10/06/2015 at 15:58

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I’d like your source for continually resorting to ad hominem accusations of racism against anyone who disagrees with the TPP for whatever reason. If anything, it’d be “nationalism.”

davedave1111 > yamahog 10/06/2015 at 16:18

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That’s not ad hom, because it’s about the point, not the person. Anyway...

The only honest reason to disagree with the TPP is that you don’t like people with darker skins than you making their way out of poverty. That’s it, the only fear anyone might have as a result of actually understanding what’s going on.

Sadly, the neo-racists have very successfully introduced a bunch of outright lies into the debate to create other, fictional fears in people like you, because they’re devastated that, e.g., Africans no longer die by the tens of millions in mass famines every year or two.

You want ‘proof’, this is proof:

That’s a billion and a half people no longer struggling just to feed themselves, in that graph alone. Trading with people (and the Washington Consensus generally) is the only thing we know which helps the global poor. And boy, does it help them: over the last twenty years or so, we’ve lifted something like half the planet out of soul-crushing less-than-a-dollar-a-day poverty. Once again, the only possible reason to oppose that is if you think it’s just dang terrible for ‘them darkies and yeller fellers’ not to be dying.

Do you hate that, or are you willing to woman-up and take responsibility for having been duped by racists into arguing for death and poverty?

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > davedave1111 10/06/2015 at 18:56

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Dude, fuck you. Don’t call me a racist because you can’t remember who you reply to