Why Aluminum Isn't Always Better...

"TJDMAX" (tjdmax) 01/15/2015 at 12:22 • Filed to: None

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The FP article today about Ford not using aluminum in its cars and saving it for its trucks got me thinking about the benefits vs disadvantages of aluminum vs steel and i found this article today talking about the biggest disadvantage to aluminum.....repair costs.

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Its not just Tesla. Ford especially. With their aluminum trucks. But sure lots of companies are using aluminum so the argue can be made that with more of the market starting to use more aluminum the repair costs will decrease etc. But the article makes one very important point on why that may not be the case. "Aluminum has no memory". Meaning when you den't aluminum its not just going to pop back to its original shape as easily as steel. So sure, while aluminum has its benefits (mostly the lightweight benefit) it seems like not a great idea for all cars...Especially trucks.

I think it would be interesting to watch someone try and repair the bed on a new F150 after all those dents....Sure its a bed so "who cares" but this goes for any body panel on the truck that gets a minor ding in it....

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HammerheadFistpunch > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:25

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pros and cons. repair costs are certainly something to bear in mind, but so too is the prospect of little or no rust.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:26

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It's a truck. Who cares? The ladder frame is still steel, and that's what matters.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:30

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Aluminum does pop back to its original shape when it's a high-copper high-strength alloy like Birmabright that's work hardened. Yo!

Only to a point, though, and that hardness makes it fatigue and fracture over time.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:32

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How come no one bitched about the repair costs in 1994 with the D2 Audi A8?

Coty > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:32

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Luckily, it has a lot less of an effect on the 2015 truck's aluminum than it did the 2014's steel. Mostly because it's much thicker.

TJDMAX > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/15/2015 at 12:32

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Yes exactly. Sure there are different alloys of aluminum that may retain the weight savings over steel and provide similar elastic properties but its a give and take relationship. So it would like you said end up being a more brittle material that would bring on a whole new string of problems.

and 100 more > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:32

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"If only there were a material as lightweight as aluminum, flexible, dent-resistant, and could be manufactured cheaply..." pondered Saturn. But what would the miracle material be?

TJDMAX > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/15/2015 at 12:35

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There are two ways of looking at it. If the truck is a base model truck and a work truck then yes you are correct. Dings and dents and body damage are less of a concern to me. But the second way is if I were to drop 50-60 grand on a new F150 or future super duty truck, you bet your ass i would care if there were dings and dents everywhere. Eespecially if that truck was used as a truck and towed and hauled things and had things going in and out of the bed frequently i would be extra unhappy to see how easily it dents and how expensive it is to repair.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:37

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It means that when it *is* dented, the panels are the devil's own work to get straight again, because you have to heat/cool shrink it after annealing - I speak from experience. I think it's easier on the Defenders with their thicker, softer alloy - more easy to just pound back out.

TJDMAX > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 12:39

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Sure...If we are talking about body panels then yes a steel body will rust eventually and an aluminum one wont. But it will oxidize which would also cause some paint issues. Not structural issues though. So yes you are correct there. Another point for the aluminum being better.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:41

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steel has been the standard for 100 years, and aluminum was very much used back then, other than weight savings, i would just stick with steel.

TJDMAX > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/15/2015 at 12:42

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Exactly. So if i were to translate what you said, pretending i were the owner of a body shop, it would sound like this. "Yes we can fix your truck, but it takes a skill not many people possess, and time, and then some more time. So just hand over the keys to your house and we can call it even".

I don't speak from experience on working on aluminum body paneled vehicles, but everything you say makes sense because i'm an engineer and do a lot of machining and fabricating with steels and aluminum's so i'm aware of how they are to work with in general.

HammerheadFistpunch > Coty 01/15/2015 at 12:45

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This test (like all comparison tests in the truck industry) is so stacked and lacking in objective information its hilarious. Of course it dented less, its thicker (like you said) because it HAS to be to have the same load carrying and structural rigidity requirements. Also, I'm never going to get tired of pointing out how stupid it is to use monikers like "military grade" or "aircraft grade" to describe aluminum.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:46

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I don't really have too much concern for the people buying 60k luxury trucks that they'll use as a truck a few times per year tops. Better off renting when needed.

HammerheadFistpunch > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/15/2015 at 12:46

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most likely because its audi's flagship luxury sedan, and high costs are assumed.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:46

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It's not even that hard, most of the time, but it's a set of very specialized techniques that only some body guys know. It'll be a while before it's more widespread. Here's a video that (if it's the one I think I remember) is very informative on the topic:

TJDMAX > Coty 01/15/2015 at 12:46

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So if it has to be thicker to resist the dents then that means the weight difference is closer, meaning then that you still have a more expensive to manufacture and repair body panel (even if it is stronger) that weighs closer to what the old steel version weighed.

I'm not saying i'm opposed to aluminum vs steel. I think there are plenty of scenarios it is better. Just maybe not on a truck. But this is just my opinion.

TJDMAX > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 12:50

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I mean the whole Pro Athlete hitting objects into the bed test is also pretty impractical. Just a marketing gimmick like this. But there must be a person that is attracted to buying a vehicle if you used words like Military grade or Aircraft grade to describe components....otherwise marketing people would be pretty bad at what they do....It is depressing though that people will buy something just because of how it was advertised and know nothing about what is actually being bought or sold to them.

Coty > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 12:51

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That's just what Ford sends us.

HammerheadFistpunch > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:53

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As a marketer, I can tell you that its exactly why those terms are used, but its still stupid.

Coty > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:53

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I forget how much we had to spend to buy tools for the body shop to be able to fix the new trucks, I think it was like $50k.

HammerheadFistpunch > Coty 01/15/2015 at 12:54

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I know, btw, I'm not directing my anger at you...you get it. I just watch all these GM vs FORD vs TOYOTA vs RAM videos that are just so dumb, its like a sham-wow ad with more machismo.

TJDMAX > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/15/2015 at 12:55

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But look at the F150. Whats the Average price of your typical F150 you see on the streets? Exclude the fleet vehicles its like the best selling truck (and i think vehicle) Ford has had for the last billion years. And its the best selling truck out of all the trucks out there by a huge margin. So, while i'm not saying your lack of concern is stupid, there are a lot of these more expensive trucks out there that people are driving around as their family vehicle and they are going to get moderately upset when a shopping cart dings the bedside of the truck and costs 5 grand to repair. Regardless if they use the truck for its intended purposes or not, the people spending that kind of money on a truck are going to care how it looks and wont be happy with dings and dents everywhere, nor the repair bills that come with fixing them.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 12:56

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At the very least those monikers should mean something, implying 6061 or 6063 aluminum is used instead of the more common 5182 or 5754.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 12:58

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Yep, I'm sure that they do care. I don't really care about their concern. They bought a utility vehicle, not a grocery getter. It will probably get dinged by a shopping cart when parked badly across the lines.

TJDMAX > Coty 01/15/2015 at 12:59

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Yikes. And i'm guessing that is going to translate into higher costs to repair.....

Do you work for a body shop? Or a Dealership?

HammerheadFistpunch > Aaron M - MasoFiST 01/15/2015 at 13:00

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Especially since Mil Spec runs the spectrum from 5000 series to 8000 series.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 01/15/2015 at 13:03

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While true, it took WWII to make aluminum really possible for major car manufacture on a cost basis, and a lot of the short-lived wave of mass-market aluminum cars (late 40s-early 50s) were brought about due to excess war stores: examples being the Panhard Dyna series and the LR Series I. The Series adopted it as a point of marketing that enabled them to justify higher per-unit cost, and the Dyna slipped piece by piece back into steel as costs increased.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 13:08

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Hey, I never said it meant anything particularly useful...

Coty > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 13:08

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Dealership with a bodyshop. I'm sales, personally.

HammerheadFistpunch > Aaron M - MasoFiST 01/15/2015 at 13:10

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considering milspec is often a hilarious joke compared to consumer standards...its all the funnier.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 13:16

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I've never seen milspec used to advertise cars...aircraft grade, yeah (hence the original comment about 6061/6063). It is of course all just marketing...in school we used 6061 for machining mostly just because spec sheets for extrusions were available everywhere, making it easier for engineering projects.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > and 100 more 01/15/2015 at 13:19

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Saturn - Not afraid to make a cheap car.

and 100 more > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/15/2015 at 13:23

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Saturn - Tupperware for your family.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2015 at 13:24

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But they weren't that much higher than working with the V8's steel unibody, assuming one had the appropriate equipment to work with the space frame.

The challenge was finding a shop with the proper tools and expertise at welding aluminum.

HammerheadFistpunch > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/15/2015 at 13:26

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I think that's the real trick that's been discussed before, its easy to support an infrastructure for a small niche vehicle like that...but this is the f150 here. Lots more shops are going to be forced to invest in this kind of equipment and training.

As Du Volant > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 13:35

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I can tell you one thing- if I was working as a body man I'd go to school to learn to work on aluminum. Anyone who doesn't and has multiple decades left in their working years will be sorry they didn't.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > TJDMAX 01/15/2015 at 23:22

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Not to mention some of the problems of steel touching aluminum.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > TJDMAX 01/16/2015 at 01:39

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Don't forget about the welding aspect. I could teach my wife to weld steel in a few hours and she had no business or interest being in a shop. Aluminum, not so much.

Mercedes has (or had) a class for aluminum welding for certified body guys and shops. The cost per technician was some absurd number. I think it was a couple weeks instructor lead training, followed by a homework project. This homework project, IIRC, lasted something like six months. You were required to start with a 3" fillet weld, then every day lady one more bead, until eventually you had basically a cube. At the end of the time period you would send your creation to Mercedes for exhaustive testing. If you pass that, you passed the class, if not then you failed the class. Less than 25% of people were able to pass and become aluminum welding certified. If you failed your second attempt, that was it, you could never be aluminum welding certified for Mercedes.

TJDMAX > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/16/2015 at 10:00

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Wow. Aluminum is definitely trickier to weld, having experience with both I can testify first hand. But that is quite the training program.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > TJDMAX 01/16/2015 at 10:16

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Those were my thoughts too when I first heard about it. I thought I was a pretty decent welder, steel or aluminum, but I don't have enough confidence to try that course. Luckily I don't need to, since I don't don't body work very often, let alone for Mercedes.