An End to a Very Antisemitic Couple of Days.

"Denver Is Stuck In The 90s" (denver80222)
09/30/2014 at 15:45 • Filed to: Personal

[Kinja Buffer]

So, I worked it out with my friend. She finally realized how wrong she was, and apologized. Her boyfriend will too after he gets off work (I dont know how sincere his will be but I'm gonna avoid him subsequently regardless). We are gonna try and work with each other, they still don't understand the gravity of what they did, but hey what Goy can really. I mean only someone with a personal connection to the holocaust can truly understand it. I hope this turns out to be a good thing, I hope she dumps that asshole and I hope that she is a better friend to me from here on out. But this was the last straw of many before it. One more severe fuckup from her like this one, and I'm calling the friendship quits. Here is the texts we had leading up to the phone call that worked things out. Lemme know if I handled things okay.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

DISCUSSION (48)

CalzoneGolem > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 15:47

:-\

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 15:49

You don't need contact with any of them after that. Friends give each other shit but bringing up one of the biggest catastrophies ever suffered by mankind as a joke is bizaare.

Gamecat235 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 15:56

Glad you feel that you are getting some resolution out of this. I've abandoned friendships over similar arguments or for less.

However, I would caution against ever using language like this:

I mean only a jew can truly understand it.

Phrasing like this helps no one. Jews are not alone in being persecuted, nor alone in the situation of having deniers or doubters of their history. And many gentile's have the knowledge and empathy to understand absolutely without direct descendency as an inclusion factor. I'm not going to argue that other cultures are better or worse, and I'll acknowledge that Jews are targeted for a variety of reasons. But singling yourself out rarely helps.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Gamecat235
09/30/2014 at 15:59

That wording was specific to this situation. I by no means intended to disregard other demographic's struggles

accordingto > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:01

I still say "dump these people".

Sweet Trav > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:04

Ignorance is temporary. Stupidity is forever.

Hopefully you've taught her a thing or two from this discourse, and at least a part of her glaring ignorance has been rectified, but only time will tell. If truth and knowledge has not prevailed, accept the fact that you cannot fix stupid and need to cut ties.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:10

I don't know if what Gamecat was referring to was this, but not only Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Yes, they were the biggest target(if you don't include our good ole allies the Russians killing their own), but many minority groups were victims of the Holocaust as well.

Klaus Schmoll > Gamecat235
09/30/2014 at 16:13

Well said! I wanted to point out the same thing, but you already worded it out in a perfect manner.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
09/30/2014 at 16:13

Oh ya you are right, I completely forgot about that. I dunno, I think this whole situation has tired me out. I was actually talking with someone on GT who was romani and had family in the holocaust earlier today. I should have remembered this, totally my bad. Should I change it, or hope that people who are offended by that see this comment?

accordingto > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:14

I'm confused as to what she meant about "failing to understand how" - you don't have to be jewish to understand "how" an extremist majority group with armies and virtually limitless resources was able to massacre a historically demonized minority group with no weapons, much less armies, at their disposal.

if she's failing to understand how humans can be so shitty to each other, point to her own texts as examples.

Did this couple just…not take History in high school? Do you need to invite them over for an educational movie night?

Racescort666 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell.
09/30/2014 at 16:15

Yeah that was weird. And pressing on after clearly upsetting someone too.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > accordingto
09/30/2014 at 16:16

There's understanding on a historical level and understanding on a emotional level. There is no way she could possibly understand how I feel about this emotionally.

nasty woodland creature > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:17

I just learned of your experience on Groupthink. Your friends are appalling. I am appalled that anyone would say what they did, and I am appalled that anyone would defend them.

I was a little distracted by the car in the image you chose. There are many things and people named "Sabra." I recognize that there is more than one association. I think that choosing an image of a car which shares the name of a refugee camp where civilians were slaughtered to top a description of inappropriate comments about the Holocaust was insensitive (and also deeply ironic).

For those not familiar with the Sabra and Shatila massacre, here it is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and…

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:17

I would probably change it, just for the slight chance that it gets shared.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
09/30/2014 at 16:19

It did get shared, I asked for it to be. The GTers have been awesome on this.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > nasty woodland creature
09/30/2014 at 16:20

Do you know what sabra or means in hebrew?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Racescort666
09/30/2014 at 16:23

Yep. It all points to him being a very stupid person.

Klaus Schmoll > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:26

Good to see that they/she came around. I just wouldn't let them off the hook too easily. Apologizing because someone told you you did bad, and apologizing because you truly understand the gravity of your fuck up are different pairs of shoes.

And maybe you could be more careful with sentences like "only a Jew can truly understand it". (Sinti and Roma, Gays, handicapped people.......) It's a slippery slope.

Now! Tell me more about this SABRA thing!

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > nasty woodland creature
09/30/2014 at 16:27

Sabra is the hebrew word for a prickly pear cactus. It is also a term that refers to an Israeli born jew. Here is the logo on the hood of a Sabra Sports Coupe:

Kinja'd!!!

I took this photo at the Dezer Museum in Miami. Notice the Prickly Pear? The car was obviously named after the cactus.

Gamecat235 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
09/30/2014 at 16:30

It was vague on purpose. Many people of many different targeted backgrounds were victims of the holocaust, and additionally, many other groups have been subjected to mass genocide outside of the holocaust of WWII.

I did not want to exclude anyone for whom either hereditary or learned knowledge would allow them to empathize with victims of this type of atrocity.

Patcher Pup > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:32

Wow. I just read your previous two posts about this situation. What a complete and total dick. You should be proud of yourself for not punching him in his stupid face. I know I would have been awfully tempted to start swinging, especially when he started making fun of Holocaust survivors with Alzheimer's. I just...there are no words ugly enough to describe his soul. I am sorry that you had to listen to that filth pouring out of his mouth. You deserve an apology, no question.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Klaus Schmoll
09/30/2014 at 16:32

Ya, I changed that. This whole thing has tired me, it mustve slipped my mind. The sabra Sports was Made By Autocars Inc out of Haifa, Israel. They only existed for about 4 or 5 years in the late 60s. I saw one at The Dezer Museum in Miami last october, 3 actually. Its beautiful. I only got pics of 2 of them though, and not very good ones either.

Kinja'd!!!

Klaus Schmoll > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:37

I know that it only was a heat of a moment thing.

And thanks for the Sabra, I always love learning about new stuff. That cactus emblem is cool!

accordingto > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:37

I don't think that's an excuse for their behavior. I mean….I don't know what its like to grow up as the butt of holocaust jokes, but I have enough empathy to know that the holocaust is not something to joke about, because (among other compelling reasons), it is emotionally hurtful to the victims, survivors, and families. I don't see how someone could defend their choice to ignore all the information on the website they cited (aish.com) to pick out one or two lines, and then claim that *you* "misread the situation". I don't see how someone could read "Night" (required reading when I was in high school), and NOT develop at least some emotional context from the book, and blame it on not being jewish.

Celia the Vampire Slaying Vampire > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 16:47

I'm glad she apologized but for real, this is an eye-opener about them both. Do not accept any apology he gives. It won't be for shit except her making him. Also educate them on how many people died in the Holocaust. Jews, Romani, Christian allies, gay people, etc. If it's easy for them to hate on Jews, maybe it'll bring them to reality when you remind them of how much life and culture this cost worldwide.

MadPiglet > accordingto
09/30/2014 at 17:00

Seconded.

MadPiglet > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 17:04

Honestly, this girl comes across as kind of a dick. I totally get why she'd get all defensive and stuff - she KNOWS what a douchenozzle her boyfriend is and I think, on some level, she knows full well that she needs to dump his ass and move on, but she won't. And so she goes to the defensive place.

As for the boyfriend... his apology is probably worth only slightly less than the stuff I had to snip out of my cat's butt-fur this morning. That was not a fun time for either me or the cat, and I tell you I'd rather do that AS MY JOB than have to listen to anything that girl's boyfriend has to say about ANYTHING. So if he does apologize, I hope you take what he says with a huge grain of salt.

I still think you would be better off without either of these people in your life. The lack of sensitivity alone would make me nope the fuck out of there. I mean, how does a "friendship" with either of them benefit you in any way? Just based on the couple of posts here... it doesn't. You are better than this. You deserve better than this. You are worth more.

BlueJeans > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 17:12

Hi, I'm a GTer just catching up on your story. I'm so, so sorry you had to hear this hateful bullshit, and hear it from people you considered friends. I'm glad to hear your friend is starting to understand that she fucked up, but I think you need to use this situation as a point of reflection — do you need to keep these people in your life? Friends don't use instances of genocide as a "joke" to get an "entertaining" rise out of you — that's not loving behavior, and it isn't remotely in the wheelhouse of normal teasing. Further, only a bigot would think it was appropriate to joke about such a thing.

If she truly comes around, can truly see how grossly hurtful and damaging their behavior toward you was, then consider that. But these people just went ahead and tell you how they think — that they value their own entertainment (or whatever you'd call laughing at someone for standing up against genocide "jokes") over your well-being — not to mention over respecting the millions of lives lost in the Holocaust. I'm so sorry you had to have this happen in order to find that out. :/

Xyl0c41n3 > nasty woodland creature
09/30/2014 at 17:14

In addition to the comments Denver made clarifying what "Sabra" means, I would also like to add that Oppo is a car interest blog. It's customary here to offer a photo of a car as a form of thanks to the readers who click on a post, especially a post about heavy topics unrelated to cars. I think Denver's choice of photos of Sabra vehicles was to showcase the pride he has in an Israeli car company, which is a rare thing indeed, and totally germane to the topic he was discussing.

Xyl0c41n3 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 17:16

In Spanish, the prickly pear is known as nopal , or nopales , plural. They're tasty chopped and pan fried with diced tomatoes and onions and a few spices. ^_^

Gamecat235 > Xyl0c41n3
09/30/2014 at 17:36

It's an acquired taste, I love the semi-bitter flavor, my wife hates it (Arizonan here).

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Xyl0c41n3
09/30/2014 at 17:42

Ive wanted to try it. It looks appealing. I wonder where I could get it in colorado.

ACESandEIGHTS > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 17:53

I don't know, dude. I guess it depends on how much you value this girl's friendship, but I wonder how much contact you'd want to have with any of these people.

Life is relatively short. I am open to working with, befriending, helping, tolerating anyone who I come in contact with. I've even met some relatively despicable racists etc. who I knew beforehand to be fairly nasty people and I've given them a shot. And some, they work out. And others, I've forgotten their names because they're not worth knowing.

Here's the life maxim that separates the one group from the other:

I'm open to knowing you and I hope you're equally receptive. We potentially both have the opportunity to benefit from that. But if you fuck me over even once, I cannot be bothered with you ever again—there's no room for trust and brotherhood after that.

I'm not talking about not paying me back for the burrito I paid for at lunch. I'm saying, betray me, goad me on, steal or outright lie or deceive me and we're done. Put me in a bad situation where it's clear your loyalty doesn't extend to me, and maybe there's no rancor and resentment, but we're just going to call it quits, alright?

Long term, dude, even if you're not as hair-triggered as I am, you'll probably end up with fewer friends than people you've lost contact with. Don't be afraid of that. Better to put time and energy into finding the right people than doing damage control with people who don't share your common interests.

Remember too that relationships are often temporary. You might meet up with this woman months or years after she's forgotten about this troublemaker. Wait for that if need be, or if it's worth it. But maybe it's time to plow new ground, grow new friends.

Xyl0c41n3 > Gamecat235
09/30/2014 at 17:54

I can only eat it in small quantities. But it's a texture issue more than a taste issue for me. Try spicing it up with some chili powder. ^_^

My local grocery chain has a prickly pear soda and that stuff is AWESOME. And I know the tunas can also be made into jam, but I haven't tried it yet.

Xyl0c41n3 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 17:56

If you have any Mexican food markets in your area, try there. Nopales are an old school staple in Mexican and Latino kitchens. ^_^

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Xyl0c41n3
09/30/2014 at 18:02

I dont think we do, but we do have an H mart. Its an asian supermarket. They have ducks hanging from the ceiling and the best miso you can find anywhere

Xyl0c41n3 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 18:13

You do! Check out the first place on this list. El Mercadito. That's Spanish for "The Little Market." It looks like it's a grocery and a restaurant. And they serve nopales! Apologies for the LMGTFY link, but my iPhone wasn't letting me copy the search URL for some reason.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Mexican+gro…

alimum > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 18:25

"what Goy can really"

I would hope most people who have a smidgen of empathy and the ability to check their privilege. You don't need to be a member of the target group to recognize that something is racist.

That guy is an asshole and, frankly, your friends are assholes too for excusing his bigotry and having the audacity to call you bigoted for being offended. Calling out someone for their bigotry is not bigotry. Expecting people who call themselves your friends to back you up and to have some empathy and compassion is normal. Suggesting that they just don't get it because they aren't Jewish is letting them off the hook.

If I were you, I would find some new friends. These people sound undependable and toxic.

ThereIsNoFluffy > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 18:59

I'm glad you resolved it to your satisfaction. But if I can offer the opinion of an old to a young, you can find better friends. These people are shitheads. If you've gotten to the "if this happens one more time I'm done" point, I promise you it's over. It was over when you said that. They will do something spectacularly assholish again. Believe me, this applies to everything. Friends, partners, jobs, pizza delivery ...EVERYTHING.

So...just be done. Save yourself the emotional turmoil and move on. You don't have to make a grand declaration of intent. You can emotionally disengage and fade out. When you drop the assholes, you open the door to better people. You are worth it. You should have that. These people are not worth .001% of the effort you're giving them.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > alimum
09/30/2014 at 19:18

Goy is a yiddish term to describe anybody that isnt jewish. It can be derogatory, depends on how its used. I didnt mean it in a derogatory manner

alimum > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 19:24

I know what Goy means. My point was that a Goy is absolutely capable of understanding how offensive your friend's boyfriend's comments were. I don't know who you hang out with, but in my world, most people with a pulse (whether or not they are Jewish) understands genocide in general and the Holocaust in particular is not a joking matter (though I am not buying their "it was a joke" defense). As I said, one doesn't need to be the target of racism to recognize and be offended by racism and your suggestion that the reason your friends just don't get it is because they aren't Jewish is letting them off the hook.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Xyl0c41n3
09/30/2014 at 19:24

Woah, There's one almost walking distance to my house! How did I never notice it?

Edit: I know why. Its in the same shopping center as the "Adult" store that makes me uncomfortable, never even been in that parking lot

But seriously, its a 4 minute bike ride from my house, its right off the Highline Canal Trail!

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > alimum
09/30/2014 at 19:28

Im not letting them off the hook, But at the same time, I can never be able to expect them to see it from my point of view.

alimum > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 19:36

If you really feel they will never evolve enough as human beings to understand how completely unacceptable and out of line they are, I think you should consider getting new friends.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > alimum
09/30/2014 at 19:50

They can never see it from my point of view because they have never been in my shoes. They have no relatives that were in the camps, they have never been made fun of because they were jewish. They may grow to be sympathetic, but without a firsthand experience, they can never be truly empathetic.

alimum > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 20:05

I think you underestimate people's capacity for empathy, but given these particular people, I suspect you are correct that they will never get it. Dump them and find better people to spend your time and energy on.

OmarGone > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
09/30/2014 at 21:07

ETA: I think your name is in one of the screenshots, if you care.

I mean only someone with a personal connection to the holocaust can truly understand it

I saw your previous posts, but not being Jewish, didn't think I should jump in with my first response, which was to cut off these assholes. But after thinking it over, I'm in the same place: What he did was at worst unspeakably antisemitic and ignorant or, at best, unspeakably cruel. It's a shame that your friend has no better self-esteem for herself or loyalty to you than to defend this assholery. She's kinda apologizing, yet still refusing your right to be upset— "talk when there is no yelling." That's straight out of Derailing for Dummies.

Regarding the Father, other than going "grow up," I would have suggested that he ask his father if Dad would share the texts and conversation with the Jews he does nonprofit work with.

This is armchair psychology, but is the terrible news about your psychiatrist making you keep these shitheads in your life? She doesn't really get how really hateful the whole thing was. I'm not sure what her friendship is bringing to your life. ETA: I mean, faced with a possible loss of psychiatrist, you are hesitant to lose another "friend."

bigdamnheroes > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
10/06/2014 at 15:03

Apologies for replying late, but I just found this update. I'm glad to hear you got an apology, but this statement did rub me the wrong way:

I mean only someone with a personal connection to the holocaust can truly understand it.

I disagree. Yes, it's different when you have a personal connection. But that doesn't mean those without can't understand. It's just compassion (and knowledge of history), and people should have it. I think too often people manage to brush off racism and the like with similar justifications. (Obviously not what you were doing, but it's similar logic.)