Lemon Laws and Buybacks, or Why I Don't Own a Ford

"jlmounce" (jlmounce) 09/22/2014 at 19:47 • Filed to: Lemon Law

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SteveLehto's recent article on dealership shenanigans made me realize I should post about my struggles with a car that wasn't up to snuff.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/when-the-deale…

Now, there's probably all manor of jokes you could start out with just based on my title. Found On Road Dead, Fix Or Repair Daily, why on earth would you own a Ford, or multiple Fords by choice?

For the vast majority of the cars I've owned, Fords have actually been among the best. Specifically Mustangs. They're relatively cheap, reliable and fun. Except for my 2011 Mustang GT. She wasn't so fun. Buckle up, it gets bumpy from this point on.

Meet Lola, a Job #2 2011 Mustang GT. She's a 401a optioned car with all the bells and whistles. She's got the $40,000 price tag to prove it.

She replaced Vanessa, my 2008 Mustang GT/CS

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/2008-gt-cs-pho…

There wasn't anything wrong with my 2008 Mustang and in hindsight I should have never made the upgrade. The 5.0 badge, 412 hp, vastly improved handling, braking and interior was enough to get me to spend more money though! As with every car purchase I'd made to that point, I was ecstatic and couldn't wait to just go drive the car!

That night I put about a hundred miles on the car before pulling into the garage. It's at the point where my smile started to fade a bit. It was late November and quite cold, so I'd had the windows up. Once I rolled into the garage and opened the door with the engine still running, I heard a faint tapping. I walked around the car, crawled under it in different locations and determined it was coming from the engine. I popped the hood and sure enough. Tap Tap Tap Tap.

I've been around engines long enough to know that not all weird sounds are serious, or abnormal. This was pretty faint and the car drove flawlessly otherwise. I shut her down for the night and went about my life.

The next day I awoke, prepared for work and setup off. On the way I called my dad to gloat about the purchase and to test out the Sync system. While on the phone the check engine light illuminates. Regardless of issue, when that light comes on in less than 24 hours of ownership, it's a little infuriating.

Once at work I promptly called the dealership and setup a service appointment. I advised them about the tapping I was hearing at that time. I dropped off the car the next day and got a ride from their courtesy shuttle to work. About 3:00pm I received a call from the service adviser with news on the car. The CEL was an emissions fault code and it had a bad catalytic converter that would have to be replaced. They had to order that part so that meant I'd have to live with the light for a few days, but that otherwise the car was fine to drive. On the tapping issue, they acknowledged that it was there and that Ford's directive was that it's normal for that engine. I got a ride from a co-worker and picked up the car.

I drove the car through until March without much issue. Sync crashed a few times and needed a factory reset that had to be done at the dealer. Not a huge issue, but at this point we're at three dealership stops in four months. Not the greatest, but it's a machine and things happen.

Early April rolls around and temperatures are rising. I'm driving the car more now and the AC is starting to be used. This is when that tapping symptom comes back and much worse. Any time the AC would kick on, you could now not only hear it very pronounced outside, but also through the cockpit itself. Remembering that this was considered "normal" I held off on taking it back in for a while so I could monitor it. Besides the car was driving fine and it wasn't down on power. Shortly after another issue cropped up that required dealership attention. This time, it was the transmission.

Some may remember that there was a big public push, by a couple people to get the NHTSA involved with the Mustang's MT82 transmission. The biggest complaint was gear grinding and clutch related issues, especially at elevated RPMs. My car didn't have those issues. Instead, what it did start doing is whining. All transmissions make some noise. When you have interlocking gear sets and especially ones that are cut a bit straighter, you tend to get some gear related noise. However this was a pronounced whine that you could hear over the stereo at a decent level. What's more, the transmission had never done it before.

Once again, I setup a service appointment. I relay the information they need to look at the car and also let them know that the engine tapping has become worse. The car is at the shop for a couple days before I get word to come pick it up. The dealer states that both the transmission whine and engine tapping are normal. I relay my displeasure at the fact that I'm being told this is a normal symptom, but that nobody can tell me why it's normal, or what components are responsible for the noises. I'm once again told to keep an eye on it and bring it back in if it gets worse.

I drive the car through the summer and I'm determined to enjoy it. The transmission whine is annoying as hell, especially with the windows down, but it shifts alright. The engine is running strong as well, so I turn the radio up and go into ignore mode. I even take the car to Pikes Peak and run the road course in 100 degree heat without issue.

The summer months fly by and I'm feeling pretty good about the car. I got quite a bit of enjoyment out of it and it hadn't left me stranded. I was learning to be less paranoid about a few noises it was making. The October hits and we get our first freezing days.

The car made it's home in a heated/insulated garage, so morning startups were never a concern. The car did sit in the cold throughout the day however and this is where I started having issues. The car was impossible to shift. The gear lever would need to be yanked out of gear, only for it to crunch, grind and refuse to go in to the next gear. Even at normal operating temperature, gear changes were becoming problematic. The gear shift had also developed a speed based vibration. What about the engine you ask? Well it was still tap tap tapping along. I had expected that to subside a bit with cooler weather and no AC usage, but in fact it was just as prevalent. Perhaps even a little worse. I made yet another appointment with the dealer. This time I made sure to have a tech ride along with me and I started documenting everything. A quick ride along from one of the techs really got them engaged in the issue. No longer could a man behind the desk just spout things about normal operation. The tech, in front of service writers expressed concern for both the transmission issues as well the engine tapping. I left the car thinking, this might actually get some things fixed now.

Nope.

The car sat at the dealer for about three days before anybody bothered to touch it, or contact me. I was told that they contacted "Ford Hotline" and were told that these issues are normal operation. I could come get the car whenever. At this point, it was obvious that I'm starting to get the run-around. I call Ford customer service and explain my displeasure at the situation. Where most people seem to get the runaround here as well, I had either been forceful enough, or lucky enough to get in touch with some people that honestly cared about the situation. Maybe it was the fact that I had purchased eight total Fords by that time that helped.

After discussing the issues going on with the car and what was starting to look like a dealership based issue, we had the car moved to another dealership to have a look at it. The only problem was the second dealership was the same owner, just a town over. Here's where the story starts to get fun.

Dealership #2 goes about diagnosing the car and they get approval from Ford to pull the transmission and inspect it. After tear down they found that the counter shaft bearings had lunched themselves. Ford initially called for the counter shafts and bearing to be replaced. Low and behold however, these parts ended up on back order. My car sits at the shop for proximately a week waiting on parts before I start to get impatient. I give Ford Customer Service another call and I talk with the service manager at dealership #2. They don't know when the back order will be filled but they don't think the car needs a complete transmission and it's clear they don't really want to pay for it either. It sits another week or so waiting. In the mean time, they are supposed to be looking in to the engine issue. They don't. Instead the car sits at the back of their lot, unmoved, piled high with snow. Another call for Ford CS. This time we've got some movement. Parts are likely not going to be available for some time. They decide to take a transmission off the line and replace the whole unit. It'll be a week before it can be delivered.

At this point between dealership #1 and #2 the car has sat, without me being able to use it for a month. I'm now in contact with Ford CS every couple of days. I explain that I'm paying for a car that I can't use and they are kind enough to reimburse me a payment. I've got Ford CS and Dealership #2 fighting each other at this point as well. I let them all know that I'm aware the car has not even moved in some time and that we were supposed to have an update on the engine. Dealership #2 finally gets the car in to the hands of a tech and I start receiving calls from service writers.

What's told to me is some of the biggest hogwash I've ever been spewed. The gist of it was that the tech felt that the engine warranted replacement. However because it met thresholds for power delivery and operation, Ford was unwilling to do so. The service write tells me that when I get the car back after the transmission replacement that I need to put 5000-7000 hard miles on it. His words were "it needs to be driven like a mustang." Ford wouldn't voluntarily commit to an engine replacement and so the dealership was inferring that if I could get it to blow up, then they could make that happen.

I'm not an idiot. I tell the service writer that first, it would take me about a year to put 5000-7000 miles on the car. I also let him know that what he's asking me to do would constitute abuse of the vehicle as defined in the warranty section of the owners manual. Sure I could blow up the engine that way, but the ford comes back, says I abused the car and denies the warranty claim. I'm now left to pay for the engine replacement out of my pocket. I phone Ford CS and let them know what is being asked of me as well. We go back and forth a bit more and Dealership #2 continues to try and work on the car. Now towards the end of November and almost 2 months after I left the car with dealership #1, I get it back with a brand new transmission.

I drive the car off the lot and immediately notice that they didn't bleed the clutch. Fortunately I know well enough that it's a self bleeding system. I sit there and pump the clutch until pressure comes up and I'm able to leave. I pull out of the dealership and head on down the road, checking everything out while I do. The car shifts much better now, the transmission is quiet and smooth. Good sign. I make my way to the interstate and head back home. Merging on to I25 is when I realize that the engine is no making the most god awful noise I've ever heard. It's clattering about pretty decent now. Owning a classic muscle car, it sounds a lot like an exhaust leak at the header. So great, it looks like I have a leak somewhere and the car will have to go back. I'm hopeful that's the case.

The next day I call up the service adviser and get it scheduled back in again. Since this dealership is 40 minutes away and I need the car, I schedule it for the next week. During that time I drive the car a little and start noticing other issues. The car is no popping and banging while making left hand turns. To the point that you can actually feel it through the steering wheel, floor boards and pedals.

At this point I'm feeling pretty dejected. I take the car back the next week and you can just tell how pleased the advisers are to have the car back. I make the service manager take a ride along with me to hear what the car is doing. He tells me he's going to test it against a car on the lot. I get a call later that day stating the obvious. "Yeah our cars on the lot don't do that." The techs look it over and can't find any exhaust leaks. They think it may be a defective sound tube, so they take one off a Mustang on the lot. The sound reduces but it's still there. They keep it for a little while longer and have no success in dealing with the engine, or why the car is popping and banging. We're now getting on to January and I haven't had the car more than two weeks since October.

I'm finally told that they can't really do anything with it and that I should pickup the car and drive it and see if anything happens. Their solution was for me to drive a car that sounds like piss, has some obvious issues going on with the engine and possibly suspension or transmission related with the banging, and possibly get left on the side of the road if something happens. I'm (I think understandable) pissed.

At this point I call up my contact at Ford CS and give him the current run down on where the car is, what is being asked etc. I explain to him that I've been patient through this entire thing, but have not had use of a car that I'm paying a decent bit for. We had discussed lemon laws previously, but what I had been wanting is to just get my car fixed. I officially ask for Ford to replace the car at this time. He takes down a bit of information and sends it off for review. He said he wouldn't have an answer for about two weeks. I immediately go get the car from the shop and take it home where it sits.

Fast forward a couple weeks and I hear back from my contact at Ford. They've approved a replacement of the vehicle. The case goes to the reaquisition department and that's my end of contact with Ford CS. I now have to deal directly with the reacquisition department. I get in touch with them and provide them information on the purchase of the vehicle. Purchase agreements, loan documents, things of that nature. They run their internal calculations and relay information to myself and the original selling dealership (Dealership #1) to go about having the car replaced. They will buy back the car at the original purchase price, but understandably they aren't obligated to reimburse interest on loans etc. There's also a fair use charge that gets tacked on for mileage and wear and tear on the vehicle. This charge for me ended up being about $4200.

Now it's good to mention here that there are rules in a replacement situation. Yes Ford is buying back the car, but for the replacement I had to purchase a Ford vehicle, off the lot, from the original dealer, for at least as much as I spent on my car to begin with. That last part made things difficult. Problem was, 2012 Mustang production had come to an end, it's winter in the states and because of those two factors inventory was low. My car was also crazy optioned and finding another one that was equal in price was proving hard. Finally we found one that was optioned very similarly. The problem was it was in Chicago and there was no guarantee that the dealership could do a trade on it. At any rate it was going to be over $1000.00 to do the shipments.

Keep in mind, most of this is going on over weeks worth of time. Trying to search for inventory, dealerships not wanting to give up inventory etc. I remember one conference call between the reacquisition department, myself and dealer #1's general manager where he learned that they don't get an allocation for the sale. Basically they would be given a $200.00 document reimbursement, but they were losing a car off their lot, that they had to sell to me at the price Ford provided them and they couldn't count it as a sale. He told me after the call "I'm not trying to be mean, but that doesn't make me want to work with you on this."

Not being able to find any inventory acceptable to me, or Ford's rules on the replacement, I had been asking to just order a 2013 spec'd to my liking. That was out of the question. Finally Ford gave a little and would be willing to do the replacement on a vehicle with a price that was close. They would then reduce my usage fee by the difference. I ended up picking out a Silver 2012 GT optioned close to what I had, but missing the nice stereo, appearance package etc. This reduced my usage fee to $2600.00. The car was delivered about a week later and I was told to bring my car in to handle the replacement.

Remember that pop and bang I was getting? During inspection of the car, we found four chassis bolts under the driver side floor mat. Dealership #2 failed to reinstall these bolts in the chassis bracing and transmission cross-over during the transmission swap.

After this, everything goes smoothly in finance. I make my payment for usage, plus extra for another down payment on a new loan. I drive off in the new car and for a time I'm happy. It's not too long before I start noticing that this new mustang had the clutch runnout issue that many people were complaining about. At this time, there were some aftermarket fixes for this that included upgrade the clutch, pressure plate and hydraulics. Not wanting to deal with the dealerships again, I figured I'd just go that route.

About a month later I get a call from the general manager of dealership #1 asking about the $2600.00 usage fee I owed. I explained to him that I paid that amount at the time of delivery via check. He said he'd look in to it and hung up. I knew I'd be receiving a call in a bit. Sure enough, half an hour later, I received a call from the finance guy wanting to redo the loan. Instead of submitting that money back to Ford, he entered it as a down payment on my loan, so they no longer had the money to send back to Ford. I explained to him that I understood this was a mistake and would be willing to work with them, but under no circumstances would we be cancelling the current loan and creating a new one. That was the last I heard from the dealership and I haven't stepped foot at either dealership #1 or #2 since.

As far as the 2012, I eventually got frustrated with the clutch engagement on that car and really felt slighted that one would have to upgrade a factory item just to make it work properly. After about a month and a half of ownership, I traded it on a 20132Corvette and left Ford behind.

All of this transpired between early October 2011 and April of 2012. Ford replaced my original 2011 GT under the lemon law and I didn't involve a lawyer to do it. Now, before anybody starts thinking about going that direction, it's not something I'd advise. Having heard many other stories, I'm the only one I know of that had this accomplished without the use of a lawyer. I got really lucky in that Ford cooperated with me without bringing arbitrators or the law in to the process. With that said, I can't be confident that I got as good of a deal out of it as I could have.

My piece of advise that I tell people now is if you're having enough trouble that you need to go this route, it might be more fiscally reasonable to simply trade off the car. For me, had I don that I would have maybe lost an additional $1000.00 or so, but wouldn't have been in vehicle hell for nearly six months.

And that's my tale. If you've gotten this far, I award you 10 internets! Thanks for reading!

Sweet Trav > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 19:56

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After Almost 11k I have had 0 Issues with my '14 Fusion, based on this I would buy another Ford product.

GeorgeyBoy > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 20:02

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Couldn't imagine going without a car for that long. I would've lawyered up.

Spoon II > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 20:06

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That's rough! Hopefully the Corvette is problem free! I will also accept my 10 internets via email

Soloburrito > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 20:09

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Obviously these sorts of nightmares occur in small numbers. That's why I can't understand why manufacturer's don't do more to help their customers in these sorts of situations. It's also why I don't ever look forward to dealing with dealerships. A clueless middle man is the last thing needed in that situation. Although it took ages to fix, at least you were able to get things done with Ford's CS dept.

How was the transition going from Mustang to Corvette btw?

Racescort666 > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 20:16

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That sucks man. Good story though.

Steve in Manhattan > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 20:17

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My answer to engine noise is usually "piston slap," but this normally doesn't happen with a new engine. That's a bad experience. Spending big money on a car should come with a willingness to fix anything wrong with it.

Cherry_man1 > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 20:30

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I own a 2011 GT premium with the auto and have no problems but I know autos are a sore subject for some. Also my family has owned several ford cars and nothing this bad has happened. Kinda sucky that that happened.

Boss2452stolemylunchmoney > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 21:12

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I had very similar problems getting my Boss 302' transmission fixed. Made me never want to have a Ford under warranty again.

jlmounce > Soloburrito 09/22/2014 at 22:21

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The tr-6060, much like the mt82, is a big stout transmission made to handle a good bit of power. It's not the smoothest piece, but the shifter and action are accurate and involving. Given an mt82 that is functioning well, I'd say they are about equal actually. The ratios in the mt82 are much better though.

Axial > jlmounce 09/22/2014 at 22:39

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Yeah, GM really gears their transmissions tall. Unlike many other manufacturers, 5 and 6 are both overdrive so they can evade the gas-guzzler tax. That leaves 1 through 4 as the real "driving" gears, and 4-speeds are so 1970s.

1995droptopz > jlmounce 09/23/2014 at 09:50

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I hope you all the best with your recent GM purchase, but from my past experience through the past 4 years, you are in for more of the same if you have any quality issues. My dad's 2011 HHR should have been bought back under lemon law, but he refused to pursue it. He ordered it, and on the ride home it pulled to the left. Around 8 dealership visits later up to and including involving GM engineers, we ditched it at a huge loss still pulling left.

My 2012 GMC had rust issues and a rear main seal leak after 25k miles and less than 2 years...never again

jlmounce > 1995droptopz 09/23/2014 at 10:41

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I no longer have that Corvette. I downsized my fleet before getting married in 2013. But, that C6, along with the 2 others I had previously turned out to be a great car. No issues from it. Cars are machines and every manufacturers has issues from time to time. Some people tend to have good luck, as I certainly have, considering the amount of cars I've owned.

I'm not actually against buying another Ford. I've been eying the 2015 Mustang and the wife and I looked at the edge and escape before going with a Grand Cherokee recently.

Buick Mackane > jlmounce 10/02/2014 at 20:29

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It seems to me we all now need to bring a lawyer with you when you buy a new car. Or the buyer now should write his own purchase agreement that includes the clause "I will never be told by a Ford service agent "That sound is normal, they all do that". Also, it would be a good idea to video and audio record every visit to the service department.

Dave > jlmounce 12/16/2014 at 09:25

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I have a 2013 Mustang GT and it's going through the lemon law process now. It has a ton of issues and had been to the dealership multiple times. Ford should have gave you back your interest. They are supposed to make you whole minus a usage fee.

I've decided to get a lawyer because both my dealership and the Ford CSM decided to give me the runaround. I remember asking the Ford CSM about a buyback and he chuckled and said I didn't qualify. I then asked how many more repair trips or days in the shop do I need to qualify for a lemon law buy back. He immediately clammed up and said I can't advise you on that because I'm not a lawyer (but he can advise me that it doesn't qualify?). I knew then and there it was time for a lawyer. Have a hearing in January. Can't wait to get rid of this thing.

Tom > jlmounce 01/11/2016 at 20:07

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I have the airbag recall now. I can’t trade my ‘13 GT for a ‘16 GT WITHOUT taking a $7000 loss on trade (my equity )... and then i would need to borrow that lost $7000 in the loan. The dealer can’t resell my car or gets a $7000 fine... the dealer actually wants me to pay that recall fine...the dealer simply do not want it on the dealer lot. ..the replacement airbag doesn’t exist and the consequences of it going off can be death. THAT’S SERIOUS ! ... So,I can’t fix it,can’t trade it in without loosing $7000 in trade value,and death could be a result of it going off. ..it’s looking like my car is unsafe,and can’t be fixed. Lemon law I guess. I’m not happy.

rslemm > jlmounce 06/14/2016 at 22:45

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Sorry, I know I’m late to the chase, but you got shafted on the usage aspect of it. A lemon law lawyer would have gotten you usage based on the mileage of first report of issue, which for you would have been day 1 at 100 miles or so.

I am going through lemon law right now with my 2015 Fusion. I went into it in July of 2015 with -6k in equity, but qualified for 0% interest for 72 months as well as 90 days deferred payment. About two weeks into driving the car, I noticed no-crank no-start issues on warm restarts when the car was parked on a slope. My car hit 30 days off the road by mid October (First report and dealer trip was 8/26). I contacted a lawyer as soon as it hit the 30 days off the road, which was also its 4th visit to the dealer for the same issues. Even though I contacted a lawyer, I had to continue to work with the dealer to attempt to fix the car, where it usually had 2-3 week stays at a time, where I was in a rental (I usually got MKXs and Explorers from the built in enterprise location, but did have one bad ass 2015 Mustang convertible during late summer / early fall... I had also effectively driven all of Fords 2015 line-up except fiesta and taurus , but including a transit connect). We finally settled last month, and I am getting 0 back, but still had about -2000 in negative equity which Ford offered to pay due to the pain in the you know what this had been, as well as possibly some hush money, and my previous 2010 Fusion that I bought and traded for the 15 was a lemon as well. We were pushing for a cash settlement of 22K on a 25K car or an even buyout.

The dealership here in Lemoyne PA has been phenomenal through the entire ordeal, and would be the only reason I would ever entertain the idea of going back to a ford product, but alas I am going to Subaru. They kept me in rentals when Ford was no-longer reimbursing them, had a rental ready for me when I landed in Baltimore after my vacation when they had my car, performed the 5k service, state inspection, let a 3rd party company replace my windshield and replaced inspection stickers all at no cost to me.

I am paying no usage fees, and waiting for the finalization of the buyback so I can turn my car in, and get my new car. As stressful as it has been, I am finally able to get into a car that I want, in terms that I want (36/36000 lease vs 72 mo finance), with features that I want for less than what I was paying. If Ford can get their Technology quality and troubleshooting up to a respectable standard (as opposed to waiting 9 months to send an engineer to the dealer)... I would consider going into another ford product at some point.

Bradley > jlmounce 09/21/2017 at 12:38

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I’m going to call out the dealerships, because I live in Colorado as well and know how this is going. I bought a brand new 2016 CMax Energi in June and it has been in 4 times for leak issues. I’m on trip 5 and they found that there are several broken welds in *various* places.

I bought it at Phil-Long Ford of Chapel Hills, and the service department there is absolutely garbage. Instead I’ve been talking it to the south Ford dealer in CO Springs called LOW AND BEHOLD Phil-Long Ford of Motor City.

Ford CS has forwarded me on to the area within Ford that makes the call to replace or buyback the vehicle. Problem is, I cannot afford the costs of “use charges” or such, and want a like for like replacement WITHOUT redoing my loan again or going through a dealer. They should be able to juse ORDER a new build and ship it directly here from Michigan. I didn’t ASK to be part of this or for a piece of crap car that’s cracking open like an egg, so I refuse to pay for FORD’s problem to be fixed. We will see how this goes. Wish me luck!

sandi > jlmounce 03/11/2018 at 14:52

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Jlmounce I am just getting started on my buyback and tomorrow I get a call with their review I guess. So do they actually give you a check for what you have into the car and that is how you had a new downpayment or did you have to come up with more money than you had already paid into the car? I have been dealing with this dealership for 2 years almost with a new car that burns oil and they insist that is normal 1/2 every 500 miles! BULL is all I can say so I have figured out what they might charge for mileage and taken off the interest of my original purchase, but not sure how they handle all that I have paid in? Any info you have for me would be very helpful as far as how the cash you have invested into the car already is handled by them.... Sandi