"DeltawingGothamDeserves" (Dablog)
09/22/2014 at 10:42 • Filed to: None
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"DeltawingGothamDeserves" (Dablog)
09/22/2014 at 10:42 • Filed to: None | 1
| 15 |
Lets get things straight. I love the Deltawing. But there is one thing that is getting to me. How much longer can they last.
We all know the Deltawing, the once semi-phallus-shaped innovative racing car that ran at Le Mans, with disappointing results. After Nissan pulled out of the deal, they joined up with Mazda and Elan to build it. It was entered in the ALMS series for 2013 in new and improved closed-cockpit form to meet with P1 regulations. This is where things get tricky.
In the 2013 season the results were not satisfactory. They did not break the top 30 until the Road America race, where they actually led the race for a period of time. 5th was their result after the race. Then they went back to lackluster results, finishing 29th at COTA, 31st at VIR, and 31st again at Petit Le Mans. Strings of DNFs plagues the team to this day.
This season, in the new TUSC format their results have been about the same. They dropped out of Daytona 24hrs, crashed and had alternator troubles at Sebring, and they have a transmission that kills itself halfway through every race. They had success at Road America again, finishing 8th. It shows improvement, yes?
This is where I get to my question: How long can they go on like this? How long will they pump money into a program that is not bringing them excellent results? Two years of DNFs and low finishes. They were planning to sell DWC13s to customers, but nothing came of that did it? You look at the current DWC13, do you see any sponsors on that car? They cannot be making much money. It saddens me to think that they may end it in a few ears when the money dries up.
The program shows so much potential, they have already put in hours of testing. They are so close to turning it around. What do you think? Will they be back next season?
i hope so. I'd hate to see them go.
Leadbull
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 10:45 |
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It's the Deltawing endurance racing deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
quarterlifecrisis
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 10:49 |
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If Don Panoz is in a position to keep throwing money at it, they'll be around. I love watching that car in person, I've seen it 4 times, once topless, and 3x in coupe form. Just the way it looks going through turns is incredible, hard to describe it really.
I think there's a good reason there weren't any customer cars....and their inconsistency speaks strongly to that. The program still exists as a unique one-off, but until they figure out how to get through these growing pains, that's all it will be.
MonkeePuzzle
> Leadbull
09/22/2014 at 10:49 |
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true, like so many innovators before, they may simply be too early.
but I suspect the small engine format will be a thing of the future, there ain't no more oil soon enough
mr_gofast
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 11:00 |
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keep in mind Deltawing also had the issue with Nissan building the ZEOD RC, which was a shameless copy of the deltawing. If Delta fails, the ZEOD may still keep going, utilizing the knowledge gained from watching the Delta fail and flounder. Plus the ZEOD is bank rolled by Nissan , Delta isnt(to my knowledge) and are bank rolled by Dan Panoz and Ganassi Racing. Also the complete story of Delta vs Nissan is right here;
Bowlby(Delta wing original designer), while an employee of Ganassi Racing, originally developed the idea as a proposal to the IndyCar series to replace an earlier Dallara design. However, IndyCar chose to stay with Dallara. Bowlby eventually hooked up with Panoz who bankrolled more design work, and formed DWP56 who took over intellectual property rights on the design. The focus was a run at Le Mans in Garage 56, which is reserved for experimental race cars. The role Nissan took was to supply an engine and presumably some other sponsorship resources required to get to Le Mans. Unfortunately the car crashed after 7 hours and was unable to finish that race. It returned to the Petit Le Mans later in the year, and then in 2013 it raced under the DeltaWing name without Nissan's blessing and sporting a Mazda engine.
Last summer, Bowlby showed up as a Nissan NISMO employee and leading the ZEOD RC project, after having been hired by Nissan in 2012. That car is slated for the 2014 24 Hours of Le Mans and again occupying Garage 56, as did the original Delta Wing.
CUE LAWSUIT
The complaint names former Delta Wing designer and current Nissan director of motorsport innovation Ben Bowlby, Nissan global motorsports director Darren Cox, Nissan Motor Company, Ltd., Nissan Motorsports International Company, Ltd., Nissan International, S.A., and Nissan North America, Inc., and requests a finding of "temporary and permanent injunctive relief, interlocutory injunction, and damages - See more at: http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/12/delta-…
E92M3
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 11:14 |
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I don't see how it can last. While it's a neat idea, and they've overcome the challenges theres no replacement for a large wheel track width. Having such a small track in the front affects it's handling and I don't see how it will ever be competitive. Sure it may get lucky with pit cycles and finish in the front once in a while, you'll never see consistent results. I could be wrong though. I'm sure people said the same thing about the 911 at one time.
TurnDownForWatt
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 11:15 |
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In his 20+ years of being around the racing and automotive business, Panoz has proven that he's pretty good at the "provide money initially" phase of the project. Pas t that, not so much.
His various race car projects have started out promising, but when it comes time to actually refine the product or make it competitive, it falls apart. He can't hire properly, can't get the correct engineers, and doesn't want to spend money to actually make the equipment work properly. He gets his shiny toy, and then gets bored with it. See the GTR, See the AV8, see the GTS, see the Abruzzi, see the Deltawing, etc. Heck, see the ALMS. He let that series completely rot for nearly 6 years until he sold it for pennies on the dollar to ISC.
At this point, I think the deltawing only exists to keep his lawsuit moving. I imagine it will be quietly killed this off season.
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TurnDownForWatt
> MonkeePuzzle
09/22/2014 at 11:21 |
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Honestly, what's "innovative" about the deltawing? Narrow nose and reliance on ground effects over external wings is late 70s, early 80s F1 technology. The now stillborn carbon fiber engine block idea was done in 1985. The small engined idea was run in practice in IMSA lites back in the late 80s.
The original concept of the deltawing was a car that ran with P2 cars, a tightly controlled "spec" and customer based class running engines that make about ~430 hp, on half the weight and half the power. The current deltawing now makes nearly 450 hp, and can't get within 6 seconds of a P2 car. Basically they've proven that with unlimited specs, they can't run anywhere near a tightly regulated cost-controlled class.
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MonkeePuzzle
> TurnDownForWatt
09/22/2014 at 11:25 |
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putting these ideas together and actually running them, innovative
mcseanerson
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 11:26 |
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I think they need a competitor with either a similar car with a different powertrain or something altogether different and different from everything else as well. I would be interested to see a deltawing only race as well.
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DeltawingGothamDeserves
> mr_gofast
09/22/2014 at 11:26 |
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That conclusion is probably all too accurate. *sigh*
tromoly
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 11:27 |
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It's really in the same boat as the Zonda R, it's a machine that can move, but isn't built to any actual racing regulations so it's an oddball rather than a centerpiece.
That, and you can spend much less money on a D-Sports Racer that is lighter, has a smaller engine, and uses much more off-the-shelf components, and run about the same lap times around Road America.
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DeltawingGothamDeserves
> TurnDownForWatt
09/22/2014 at 11:28 |
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So, no future, no money?
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TurnDownForWatt
> MonkeePuzzle
09/22/2014 at 11:31 |
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Again, these are all concepts that have been run in competition, 30+ years ago. They're not being run today, because they've been legislated out.
Audi doesn't run a 930kg P1 car because they can't get the weight out. The ballast it up because the regs call for it. A P2 car is required to be 775kg. Sticking the deltawing at 250kg below that isn't some revolutionary concept. Every prototype car on the grid is running ballast to meet weight, so it's not like they can't be lighter.
That's basically all the Deltawing is at this point. "Hey, let's make a light car and run it narrower than the mandated width that other classes have to adhere to". The initial car used an off the shelf Nissan touring car engine, and the current car uses the 2.0 liter AER 4 banger based off the old Mazda design, which has been hanging around sports car racing since the late 90s.
They've basically stuck a P2 car driveline into an indycar concept, stuck a roof on it, and go out there barely turning GT-class lap times.
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DeltawingGothamDeserves
> quarterlifecrisis
09/22/2014 at 11:31 |
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It's why I'll miss it. The strangeness of it, the witchcraft engineering they used to make it work, and the way it looks.
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TurnDownForWatt
> DeltawingGothamDeserves
09/22/2014 at 11:33 |
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Based on track record, I'd say so.