The Fox Boss Project Part 2.1 - The First Block! :D

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390)
09/17/2014 at 09:34 • Filed to: Fox Boss

[Repost for morning crowd, because cannot contain excitement for this.`]

We've finally got to part 2!! Oh look, a rear-engine FoST...Wait a sec. ;)[Repost for morning crowd]

Finally got my hands on a short block to use for the project. I picked up this 302 out of a '95 Mustang GT(original car and owner too) that's getting a 408W swapped into it, and the oil pump for $100!!

Drove out 20 miles to pick it up but that's not even a big deal. There's a catch with this one though. It's a high-mileage 302! :)

220,000 miles!

Before I go any further on this project, the short block will need to be rebuilt, cleaned and painted. Maybe I'll clean it up this weekend. So excited!! :)

DISCUSSION (67)

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/16/2014 at 23:57

That's awesome! Good luck, I'm excited to see how this turns out. Do you plan to invest in some decent internals to handle a bit extra power or will you be keeping this closer to stock?

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/16/2014 at 23:57

What color are you thinking? Blue? I would love to see someone go against the grain and paint an engine matte white. Not even sure if there is matte white engine block paint.

Time to watch a ton of engine build videos on youtube. There's a lot of little things to keep in mind. Also, if you don't have one yet, get a torque wrench, and know how to set it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JGrabowMSt
09/17/2014 at 00:00

I was thinking blue yeah. Maybe matte black. And yes, it is time to get a torque wrench, maybe my school's fabrication lab has one for the time being.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 00:02

Thanks! I plan on just getting it to push out 300whp(not sure how much at crank) minimum to start with. Once that's achieved, we'll go from there. :)

Don't want to push it too far, but I want it to be quick enough to pull with the FoST at least.

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:02

I would say talk to one of the professors about where to get a good one on a budget. I've seen them all over, but quality is very hit or miss. I don't own one, but I'm sure I'll have to change that when I finally save up the pennies for a wavetrac.

StoneCold > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:04

Hmm, if it's being rebuilt, I still think that junkyard 351 would have been better.

But this will work, and it will be awesome! Make this stuff your friend:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/gunk-carbure…

It doesn't magically get all the carbon off, but it makes it roughly 6,000 times easier to clean things like bolts and the pistons when you let them soak for an hour or so. This is if the Fab shop doesn't already have a parts washer.

Now onto the bad news: I wouldn't trust that oil pump. I never trust something so crucial unless I take it out of the box myself.

The pump is $25 after 30% coupon at Advance: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/melling-stoc…

Also, check if the shaft (if it came with) is straight as best you can.

Overall: I am excited for your build!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JGrabowMSt
09/17/2014 at 00:04

What's wavetrac? And I think what I'll do first is take it to one of those quarter washes and power wash it to get any dirt and grime off to start with. I'll do that Thursday or Friday maybe.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 00:09

Oh I agree with you on the 351 in every way! But no one could find time to help me get it out so I gave up on it. Also there was feces on it so that kinda turned me away(could've been a basket case for all we know).

How do I use carb cleaner in conjunction with a quarter power wash? Or I could do both! Not sure in what order though.

I have no doubt that the oil pump is probably useless, but the owner knew no one would actually buy it, so he left it on for me. I'll definitely replace it in time before I move further.

The shaft is the crank right?

I'm very excited too!! :)

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:12

If the quarter wash does water recycling or something along those lines, go in with a couple cans of degreasers, and only use the power wash as a rinse cycle. Brake cleaner is your friend.

Wavetrac .

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JGrabowMSt
09/17/2014 at 00:14

It has a drain in the center...I think that counts, and thank goodness my dad bought me some last month for no real reason! :)

Should I not use the engine cleaner setting and a brush for it? Get that grime off and all.

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:18

Cool, just make sure you do your research. I don't know what the 95 5.0's (4.9's) were capable of. Oppo has helped me with problems in the past, so asking questions here is a good idea. Many have experience with this.

Any plans on what year fox body you want? I would want an 86. Which funny enough I tried so hard to look for when finding my first car.

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:20

You want to start off with a degreaser to penetrate and lift the dirt out. After a couple of shots with the degreaser and a rinse, you should see the clean metal. I wouldn't powerwash it unless you can very easily completely dry it right away. Water will corrode the metal. It wont be instant, but if there's any scoring anywhere, you can run into rust issues. The insides of engines don't like water at all. I'd avoid it for the most part. Even when I wash my car, it gets the hoses misting setting. No more water than it absolutely needs.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 00:24

I would like an '86 as well. But for some reason, I'm considering a '94-95 as well, just in case I find a good deal; which would require a project name change for sure. The '94-95 GTs made 215hp stock; according to my research, 500whp is the max when you're killing the motor, so 300whp seems to be a safe number to shoot for. And with such a low budget like mine, there's no way I could get 500whp!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JGrabowMSt
09/17/2014 at 00:26

Will do then. So where do I pour/spray this stuff?

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:28

Wouldn't the 94-95's be heavier though? I would try and stick to a fox. Don't forget to look at the earlier fox bodies, I thought they looked cool. And I didn't know those engines could achieve a lot of power before blowing up, I think that's more HP then what mine should handle. 300WHP in a fox though sounds like a lot of fun.... I wish I had extra money to do this!

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:33

All over. I've seen entire piston sets cleaned very well with brake cleaner. Do you plan to remove the pistons, or leave the pistons and crank assembled? Just spray liberally with brake cleaner, let it soak in for a minute or so, and then rinse + dry. Repeat until you get the results you want.

StoneCold > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:37

O_O okay . Feces are a decent sign to walk away.

The power washer plan is only, only for the bare block. When everything is stripped out.

When you get to that point of a bare block, you need to do it quickly in a four step process:

1) Power Wash

2) Dry (compressed air + vacuum)

3) Rust Inhibitor (WD-40 or other penetrating oil like PB blaster)

4) Sealing (cling wrap and trash bags, taped up)

The majority of your cleaning is going to be you, the carb cleaner, some brass brushes, a razor blade, and your fingernails. It takes time, looots of time, but you put on some music, maybe have a friend or two stop by, and it can be a good time.

By shaft I meant oil pump shaft: http://shop.advan

ceautoparts.com/p/melling-oil-pump-intermediate-shaft-is-68/5687829-P

Although, with such a high mileage car, getting the crank checked/polished would be a good idea when you get there.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 00:38

Well the problem with the Fox is actually the body itself. The Fox "Body" is very weak and has been known to bend and warp itself because of a powerful motor, if I find a good deal I'll definitely go Fox, but the body will need a shiton of reinforcement before the motor goes in. The SN-95 has the structural integrity to handle the power I need stock. But It's missing one thing....

LOUVERS!!!

Kinja'd!!!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JGrabowMSt
09/17/2014 at 00:40

Not sure. Do you think I should remove the pistons? I am curious to see them and clean them as best as I can, and I want to be as thorough as possible. If the crank is to complicated to be assembled and reassembled then I'll leave it alone for now.

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:44

That is true. The 25th anniversary 5.8L TT Mustang didn't make production because it was so powerful it created a lot of problems. Oh, and about the louvers....

Kinja'd!!!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 00:47

So disassemble the block first, then power wash, got it. It'll allow me to degrease and paint everything that needs it too. Could I perhaps use carb cleaner and brass brushes, so as to not cause rust with a power watch?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 00:48

They look better on the Fox IMO. Do you have a set? You should get some. :)

and 5.8 TT??? God damn..

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:51

Well, considering the mileage on it, and the fact that you do not have a complete engine, you need to do it the smart way and take the pistons out. You're going to want to replace the piston rings and rod bearings, because if you don't, you can risk losing compression or burning oil. When you get your heads, you're going to want to use new valve springs and lifters to ensure you have optimal compression and no slop in the valve train anywhere.

It'll be good experience, you just need to really read up and watch a ton of videos on how to do it. You're also going to need to rent/borrow or buy the cone tool for sliding pistons back into the block with a fresh set of rings, and when you get there, it has to be done really carefully with oil otherwise you risk scoring the cylinder sleeve before you even get the thing finished.

If you had a complete motor, you could tear it down, replace the seals and gaskets, clean it, and put it back together, because the slop in the motor wont change. Since you're essentially building the whole thing up, you should take the opportunity to do it correctly, and replace any bearings, seals or gaskets that will be a weak point in the motor. You'd be wasting your time if you don't.

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:52

After cleaning two motors down to the bare block a friend and I decided to go professional with it... bought lots and lots of this stuff(expensive but it'll work for many more cleanings in the future and makes it soooo much easier):

Kinja'd!!!

And filled a pretty freaking big container with I want to say somewhere around 8 gallons of the stuff. Now we have a cleaning vat large enough to fit an entire Nissan KA24 block(one side at a time) for soaking.

It made parts go from this:

Kinja'd!!!

To this:

Kinja'd!!!

The rotor on the left had been in for about 12 hours of just soaking, then wiped off with a rag and hosed down. The rotor on the right stayed in for a little over 2 days and got the same treatment. It's awesome to not have to scrub...

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JGrabowMSt
09/17/2014 at 00:53

Then a disassemble job will be done! Better get it right the first time though, it'll be cool to see the bare innards of the block too. Wonder how much piston rings and rod bearings will cost me..

Watching some videos already, the process looks simple and straight forward to build it though, like putting Legos together.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > roflcopter
09/17/2014 at 00:55

I like this. I'll disassemble the block and do this to all the parts then, I'll need a big bucket though. Thanks for the recommendation! :D

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:57

No louvers for me! Even if I wanted them I have bigger priorities. A battery, two new front tires to complete the new set, shocks and struts. Then some small things. And boy I can't wait for the shocks and struts either, it's been fun feeling my suspension change since I've gotten some new parts. And here's the 5.8 TT:

http://themustangsource.com/fast-fox-body-…

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 00:59

I'd definitely pick up a gallon or two for cleaning the pistons(it's a pain getting in the ring grooves) and the rods and all the little bits... buying enough to do the entire block is not exactly cheap. This stuff is usually about $25-30/gal depending on where you can find it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 01:03

I can go see it at the Roush Museum! It's only 40 minutes away from me! :D

I've got to do that some time.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > roflcopter
09/17/2014 at 01:04

Gosh is that much monies! is there a cheap alternative? Or I'll just have to wait a bit before I can do that part. Exactly how much will I need for the entire block?

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:10

We haven't found anything cheaper so far... that stuff works better than diesel, kerosene, mineral spirits, all of them, in our experience. One little note though, if anything is a nitrided surface(typically only bearing faces or something) then don't let it sit for more than about a day without wiping it down and rinsing it, it seems to like to cause some sort of corrosion on them. And how much you need depends entirely on how well your container fits your block, you'll need enough to submerge at least halfway up the block in some orientation so you can flip it to get the rest, or maybe three soaks would work better for a V engine, remember that the block will displace some cleaner though so it doesn't necessarily have to fill up that high in the container to cover it, I'd suggest putting the block in first then just pouring in more until it gets to where you want it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > roflcopter
09/17/2014 at 01:15

Okay. How do I know if a surface is nitrided though? I bet I could use less carb cleaner if I disassembled the V8, and submerged all the parts! :)

Then I'll let it sit for 24 hours and clean it off and repeat for a couple days. I've gotta do this as perfect as possible.

Question, do you think sandblasting will be of any use for the block?

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:19

That's cool, definitely go and bring back pictures! There has to be some great cars there.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 01:23

I'll have to see when they're open and find time; I gotta see that GT40 at the Henry Ford Museum first. ;)

03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:27

I got to go to the Sam Pack museum for free for entering a car show back in May. As soon as you walk in there's a GT40, a real GT4o sitting up front. Pretty much made my week. Ok month. Maybe year....

Kinja'd!!!

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:29

The interwebs should let you know if it's nitrided. A pretty good rule of thumb is that any bearing is going to have some sort of coating, so don't soak any of them you plan on reusing. And I would definitely recommend having it completely torn down into parts before you start using this method or you'll get cleaner in places you can't get it back out of very easily.

Sandblasting(usually referred to as media blasting because typically you use a form of baking soda not actual sand) can be fine for no-toleranced things but I wouldn't touch anything that is critical and that you aren't planning on having remachined with it. The head mating surface can be a bit off as long as it's still flat, scratches and stuff aren't the end of the world because the gasket takes up the slack, but on cylinder walls, piston skirts, and etc I wouldn't touch them with even scotchbrite unless you plan on boring/honing things again. I would definitely recommend getting the top mating surface decked since it's a high mileage motor, as well as the head itself if it's in unknown condition(you can't exactly just look at them and tell if they are good).

If you don't mind me asking, how far does your experience go with engine building? A buddy and I got into doing some stuff in the past year and I'm by no means an expert but I feel like I've definitely done a lot of research and have a few motors to back it up now, but it's definitely quite the undertaking to get things anywhere near perfect.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > roflcopter
09/17/2014 at 01:33

I see. And my engine building experience? I have none! (-_-)

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > 03mach1 - Now has a Fiesta ST
09/17/2014 at 01:34

Part of life. Forever, who's to say how long it'll make your time! :)

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:40

Well, there's no better time to start than now!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > roflcopter
09/17/2014 at 01:47

Precisely!! :)

I'm comprising a list of basic parts I need/want to make this work, and it sounds amazing in my head!

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:49

This might be my engineering side coming out, but don't let anything seem good enough, measure EVERYTHING, make sense of EVERYTHING, look for the numbers and the facts, and you should get to where you want to be.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > roflcopter
09/17/2014 at 01:50

This is why I go to an engineering school! :)

You're speaking my language sir.

StoneCold > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:51

That. Would take. Forever. Like, hundreds of man-hours. It would cost you more in brushes and razor blades than it would to just take it to a machine shop and have it hot tanked.

However, we're really splitting hairs on trying to save here. The analogy I can think of is using a piece of scotch tape instead of a band-aid on a cut: it will get the job done and is technically cheaper than the band-aid, but it's not the best or most comfortable way.

The most effective way to keep costs down is to keep the block out of the machine shop as much as possible. But there are things that only they have the equipment and experience to check for and do. I don't know how equipped your Fab shop is, but I'm going under the assumption it does't have what you need.

I would at minimum get the shop to do four things:

1) Install the camshaft bearings.

- Yes, the front ones are easy, and you can makeshift a tool to get the back ones, but I don't think you'd be up for installing bearings blind with a 2 and half foot rod. And you can't nick anything.

2) Check/polish the crank.

- Precision thing, plus they have experience on what tolerances are...tolerable. Also, I'm guessing you're not going to use the stock cam to make the power you want, so you shouldn't get the stock camshaft checked/polished if that's the case.

3) Check both the block and head mating surfaces.

- Same precision thing.

4) Honing

- Yes, they make things that you can borrow from Autozone that let you hone yourself, but it's extremely difficult to get the right angle to ensure good lubrication. Like, really hard . Plus, it's usually the cheapest thing a machine shop does, and a high mileage engine needs all the lubrication it can it.

If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do to minimize the costs:

First - Strip the block down bare. Ream the cylinders (when you take the pistons out, you'll find this huge lip thing near the top; that has to go). Depending on how much you reamed, you may have to bore over. But that's a bridge to cross when you get there.

Second - Get the camshaft I want (with other timing stuff in a kit like lifters, pushrods, rockers, etc. if I can) and camshaft bearings.

Third - Take the block, cam, cam bearings, and crank (all separate) to the machine shop and have them make a package deal of cleaning the block (jet or hot tank, whichever is cheaper), installing the cam and bearings, honing the cylinders, and checking the crank. They'll sometimes try to get the oil galley plugs and such done, but I feel that's unnecessary.

Fourth - Pick up the cleaned block (w/ installed cam and honed cylinders) and the crank, lubed and wrapped by the shop,

Fifth - Continue gathering parts at your own rate, waiting until you have most everything before you reassemble, letting your block sit nice and dry and flash-rust free in its protective cocoon.

Once you get an oil pan, heads, and an intake, you'll be able to seal off the cylinders pretty much and be able to paint all at once and such.

Since you officially have a block now, the greatest way to make sure this is going to get done is to see what parts you're going to need in total.

I'll be happy to go through the future list with you in post 2.2 when you are ready to take the connecting rods out and undo the caps on the crank (I would make another post before you do that so we can see where you're working and advise on how to keep things in order)

Of course this is all going to get screwed up if you have to bore over. Then you can pretty much toss your budget out the window -_-

roflcopter > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 01:59

Literally every issue that has sprung up with the Datsun that we rebuilt/turbo'd/continue to hoon has been do to taking a shortcut somewhere.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 02:05

I don't understand what reaming is, and I definitely do not want to have to bore this motor out either. Could I submerge the disassembled block and associated parts in carb cleaner instead? Unless the idea is to simply have a shop clean up and complete the short block, which is what I think you're saying, I'm totally okay with that. I know exactly what cam I want too because budget.

This one:

http://www.americanmuscle.com/ford-b303cam-8…

Also, I'm not very sure where to go to get this job done. I can't find a place anywhere near where I am that seems to specialize in this task? Also, should I not disassemble if I plan on taking it to a shop then? Should I just leave it as is until I get the cam and am ready to take it there?

StoneCold > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 02:38

AH! First, critical budget question: Are you going to have roller lifters or flat-tappet lifters?

http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford+Racing/…

^ Those are roller lifters. They are more efficient wear down a lot less than flat tappets. One set of roller lifters will last you probably the life of the car. They pair up with the cam you posted and are stock for 1987 and up. Their downside is that they can (but aren't at all likely) break at high RPM

http://www.amazon.com/Sealed-Power-H…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

^ That is a flat tappet lifter. They are much cheaper, but are a little less efficient, but since they are less complicated, they can't really break. I got my set from advance auto for 28 dollars after coupons.

Why I bring this up is that you need the lifters to match the cam. If you are getting that cam, you need the roller lifters. If you're budget is getting stretched, you can downgrade to a flat tappet cam and save, but that's another power compromise then (a compromise in the power band I should say, peak horsepower wouldn't change: http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/Flat… )

StoneCold > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 02:49

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acces…

Reaming is sticking that thing ^ into each cylinder to scrape away at a ridge that's formed from the cylinder walls wearing away as the piston and piston rings scrape against the cylinder wall.

Kinja'd!!!

Looks like that ^ Where the blackish part starts is the ridge. If the differences between the worn down part and the ridge are more than about .007 of an inch, every machinist is going to tell you to bore over, and boring isn't cheap when you multiply it by 8. Then you have to get new .030 over pistons, so that's another $100+. Yeah, you'll make sliiiightly more power, but not much.

StoneCold > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 02:50

What's your zip code? I shall find at least one you can ask.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 03:02

48076. I think I found one I could maybe ask, not sure though.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 03:03

Roller lifters will do just fine on my 5-6 year budget plan.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 03:04

I remember the owner mentioning something of reaming, can't remember ATM. I could always shoot him an email or text and ask though.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > StoneCold
09/17/2014 at 03:07

Also, I can take some pictures with light tomorrow and maybe that'll help some.

Jobjoris > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 04:50

Awesome! Don't forget to register your FOX BOSS to the oppoprojects and make an entry about with the oppoproject-tag !

JGrabowMSt > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 08:40

Building the motor is relatively simple. Getting it to run right is the hard part.

Sweet Trav > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 09:43

I'm local. let me know if need a hand wrenching.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Sweet Trav
09/17/2014 at 09:51

Thank you, Travis. :)

Yimmy_D_Yo > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
09/17/2014 at 10:26

Done the same as you with an old F150 block into my 85 GT. Dart Heads with 58 cc chambers, and an edelbrock intake, DSS forged aluminum pistons, F150 rods and crank. About 10:1 compression. 125 shot of nitrous. I'd say maybe a little under 500 at the crank..? I recommend getting new pistons and having that block bored .030". And the block decked to be straight cause the head sealing surfaces aren't very thick on old 5.0s. If you're using old rods you should get new rod studs and since you're getting new studs then they would have to be reconditioned since the caps line up off the studs. Also get studs everywhereeeee. There's a lot of things you can do to make it stronger like de-burring, peening and smoothing the rods, block and crank that cost no money at all. If you're doing all this yourself I recommend getting some books. Books that say things like clearances, tolerances, and bolt torques. Also get a few measuring tools like a caliper and a micrometer and a bore gauge to measure all those clearances. I know a good machine shop in your are (depending where you live in that zip code) where I took my block to get decked and bored as well as my rods to be reconditioned and rotating assembly balanced. Dynamic Speed and Marine is the place. I know the guy personally and he's a pretty cool dude. Just some advice so you don't get it all done and then realize you need to do it all over again...