"Drew" (midnightdori) 09/13/2014 at 01:19 • Filed to: 911, Porsche, IactuallyIMDB'dthatHomeAlonekid, BuzzYourGirlfriend, Woof

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Okay, sports fans. We live in a world of $30k 1983 911SCs. 997s are just now crossing the $35k barrier. 993s are off in their own Hunter S. Thompson ether binge of a market. New Caymans and Boxsters are where 911 Turbo prices were 5 years ago.

I recently took a trip up to our local Porsche dealership since my girlfriend was looking at a Passat they had, and took every opportunity to turn right back into that obnoxious neighbor kid from Home Alone asking all kinds of questions because Porsche.

General consensus was that even the '09-'10 Caymans (even the 2.7s) are a mighty hot commodity, and correctly optioned, won't crack $35k for some time. Used Porsches are silly expensive, even now. Bummer.

However, in dark, hushed tones in a bar in Zuffenhausen, there is word of hope in the used market. The bastard of the litter: the 996 911. Unloved due to a headlight treatment that only a widebody could save, a minor engine issue that would cause them to go critical mass and generally drop everything they were previously doing just because, and following up the most beloved of modern 911s, the 993. But wait a minute: you can snag these fellows for under $20k on eBay all day and night. And not the convertibles that really slash the prices of the other generations, but the real deal coupes. That's right, a 911 coupe for under $20k. Play your cards right, and you're looking at a $17k out the door 911 coupe with a manual transmission.

Insurance, repairs, blah blah blah money is just an integer and will power is for AA meetings. So the question I pose to you lovely Opponauts: what number does the 996 make your spidey sense tingle? I was a little surprised that the 996 had taken such a magnificent hit over the years, but what number does the 996 enter your short list of "Next to Own". Here's a few to refresh your memory:

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My lucky stars indeed, $22k for a C4S:

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Here's one with a very late 90's Smashmouth, Christopher Lloyd doing 10-10-220 commercials, Starr report factory aero kit:

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Granted - they may be the least loved of the 911s. But we're not talking about a Beetle-engined 912 going for $30k here - this is a 300-ish HP, N/A 911, with a manual gearbox, and that magnificent mechanical exhaust note. So: am I a terrible person for thinking this could be a viable option until the 911 bubble pops? And what Bill of Sale number does it for you?

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Drew 09/13/2014 at 01:24

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I like the 996, headlight and all, so $17k with under about 70k miles sounds good to me.

Doug DeMuro > Drew 09/13/2014 at 01:26

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The 996 is one of my favorite ones — but before you get serious, you might want to Google "intermediate shaft" or "IMS". There's a reason these are so cheap.

Conan > Drew 09/13/2014 at 01:28

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I drove one the other day in Richmond. Too automatic and too many miles for me, but I feel like a 996 could be in my future once I stop my current invest in my second job spree.

brjklein > Drew 09/13/2014 at 01:42

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When 2000-03 C4S's drop below $17K (with IMS receipt), I'll start thinking. Turbos are far too expensive, but the 4S is really the only cool model near the bottom of the price barrel.

I'm not saying $22K for a C4S isn't worth it performance-wise, but I've already driven a 90s German sports car or 5, so I know that it'll need a shit-ton of plastics replaced, soon.

FlimFlamMan > Drew 09/13/2014 at 01:43

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I've been eyeing the 996 for about a year now and they look like great deals to me (provided the IMS is good to go). I don't like the earlier version headlights though. I prefer the 2001+ that are all clear (as opposed to the ones with amber turn signals).

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Drew 09/13/2014 at 01:50

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I've had a hankering for a 996 lately. If I had 20k hanging around I'd be hunting for one ferociously right now. The headlights do not look that bad to me to be honest.

Arben72 > Doug DeMuro 09/13/2014 at 03:23

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But then you find out a magical dealer called carmax that can solve all those worries for a fee. But then you look at the e60 m5, which is the same price, and realise why the hell am I looking at 300hp fashion acessories. So you buy the m5 and realize gas prices are too high to afford so you become a politician to declare war on the #1 country that sells us oil. So we then annex canada, but realize America no longer has a hat and everyone is getting a cold. So we give back Canada but it's too late and Quebec controls it all. So now we have a Beret instead of a Toque and become the laughing stock of the world and must surrender to everyone and Isis claims America. All due to someone trying to buy a 996.

Tl;dr 996s are cheap due to them being a terrorist weapon, and I drank a bit much.

total_spaz > Drew 09/13/2014 at 04:18

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let me start by admitting that i'd make all types of compromises to get into a 993. i'd take a cab, maybe even (gasp) a tip. probably not a tip actually. a 996 would have to be both the right spec, and the right price, and... yeah, under $20k is fairly compelling. I was down at my local recently and they had a 997.1 c4s that was pushing my buttons, albeit in the $40s... no 993s at all. didnt even look at 996s.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > Doug DeMuro 09/13/2014 at 04:24

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LS2?

BKRM3 > Drew 09/13/2014 at 07:19

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IF you could find one with a fresh clutch, RMS and IMS upgrade it would be reasonable to own one for under $20k. They've got to be fully depreciated and I doubt you'd ever lose significant money on it. The problem with the 996 isn't the headlights as much as it is the interior - that rounded, plasticky crapcenter that you have to endure while driving the thing. Well, that and the engine. You see, the mere existence of the 3.6 and 3.8 997s is pretty much sufficient to keep me from owning a 996 at any price. At some point it's not about the money as much as it is about knowing that you bought the most awful 911 ever made.

Drew > Doug DeMuro 09/13/2014 at 09:07

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No doubt - but how much of a premium are those IMS cars commanding? I can't justify pulling the trigger on a $17k timebomb, but if I can snag a IMS-upgraded C2 for under $25k? A good C4S for $30k? Suddenly, my girlfriend is wondering why I'm catcalling eBay listings.

Doug DeMuro > Drew 09/13/2014 at 10:09

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The price difference is actually very small. The main problem is that the guys who have done IMS are usually the savvy, love-your-car types who won't sell often. It's very tricky to find a 996 with IMS done — much easier to buy one and do it yourself or have it done, though the cost is prohibitive; $3k plus some 'while-you're-in-theres'.

DrScientist > Drew 09/14/2014 at 00:45

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the 2002+ 996 is the one to get.

it has the teardrop headlight treatment, first seen on the '01 996 turbo. rather than the headlights shared with the boxter used on the 99-01 MY cars.

it also has the larger 3.6 engine, which adds 15 (or is it 20? i forget) hp over the 3.4 used 99-01.

the C4S is by far the best looking, with the wide-body rear end, the front bumper from the turbo. but its also among the slowest. the AWD adds weight. the big rear tires add rolling resistance. also, the C4's (S or not) also lose significant trunk space with the front differential, which is important to some of us who like going on trips with ours. unfortunately, there was no C2S produced, any year.

i bought my 2002 C2 back in 2010, for something around $29k. it had 21k miles on it at the time, seal grey, 6speed, and all the right options. i've driven it ~12k miles/year, and i walk to work. its been to new orleans, maine, toronto, vermont, and even newfoundland for the targa in 2012. a set of blizzaks and the factory roof rack plus a yakima attachment allows it as new england ski-trip transport. and its been incredible for all of it.

its about to go in for 75k mile maintenance. and probably new clutch/throw out/RMS/IMS/AOS. check rennlist.org for more details. the debate over the upgrade and what to do when and for how much has been beaten to death. just like other older 911's and other porsches in general with their required updates to check at the time of purchase, the IMS thing will soon just become another question in the buying process. maybe warranting a $2k discount, maybe not.

its going to be nearly impossible to put a hard number on these things, because you do have to consider some of the options. the full leather is much nicer than not. the HID xenons are much nicer than not. and you'll also be able to find 996s with 150k+ miles and more than a few similar cars with <50k miles.

so... if youre interested... check one out by all means. but do your research. read over at rennlist. took me about a year to find the one i finally pulled the trigger on. but when you do, you won't look back.

DrScientist > Doug DeMuro 09/14/2014 at 00:52

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3k plus?

3k will include the other 'while youre in theres.'

don't feed the hysteria.

clutch job on its own is 1800-2500 depending on your shop. few more bills for the ims. maybe more at a dealer. and its not a bad idea to change the clutch anyhow on a 12 year old car with 50-100k miles.

TheFlatSixer > Drew 09/14/2014 at 22:09

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A little writeup I did not long ago that'll address your questions.

http://www.theflatsix.com/2014/06/10/in-…

Also, an anecdotal poll on Rennlist suggests many people have done the fix, but they didn't have any problems prior to doing it:

http://bit.ly/1qPiQIv

Just buy one.

TheFlatSixer > Drew 09/14/2014 at 22:09

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A little writeup I did not long ago that'll address your questions.

http://www.theflatsix.com/2014/06/10/in-…

Also, an anecdotal poll on Rennlist suggests many of people have done the fix, but they didn't have any problems prior to doing it:

http://bit.ly/1qPiQIv

Just buy one.

Andrew's Ennui > Doug DeMuro 09/15/2014 at 00:55

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Which isn't too bad of a hit if you've picked up a ~$22k 911 in otherwise good shape.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > Drew 09/16/2014 at 17:45

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Ugh. I really dislike these. Not even because of the exterior...but that godawful interior which literally looks like a nightmare from hell and contains more cheap plastic than Walmart. I just can't do it.

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > DrScientist 09/16/2014 at 20:42

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That sounds a lot more inline with what the shop I took my porsches to told me.

And as the owner of two 986s, not sure I'd buy a 996 due to the interior, its absolutely terrible. MIGHT be vintage-weird charming in 10 years but right now it still sucks. Lot of other cars I'd rather get for that price...

Drew > TheFlatSixer 09/16/2014 at 20:57

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This is quite good - excellent write-up. And you've got the one I want. I've got a truck first on the list of cars to add to the fleet, but a 911 of some variant follows that. You make a good case for a 996 for sure.

Manuél Ferrari > Doug DeMuro 09/17/2014 at 01:33

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Doesn't affect the turbo or GT3

996 GT3 already too expensive

Everyone should be a 996 Turbo

Manuél Ferrari > Drew 09/17/2014 at 01:34

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996 Turbo FTW

It's the only generation where I like the Turbo more

colorfulyawn > Drew 09/17/2014 at 02:05

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I'm not a 911 guy at all, but I saw this Moodyesque Cabrio at the shop today when I dropped off my car, and even I was tempted. If I owned it, I would never wash it.

Preeth Kumar > Drew 09/17/2014 at 07:46

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too bad the 996 chassis is pure dog shit.

southernyooper > Arben72 09/17/2014 at 08:36

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Holy fuck, that was awesome.

melikecars > Drew 09/17/2014 at 12:14

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I wonder if I can convince the wife that our 4 year old and upcoming newborn will fit just fine in the back of a 911 for a while?

n54 & s38 > Drew 09/17/2014 at 12:18

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Yeah, the main things that turn me off about the 996 are the potential IMS failures and the fact that the interiors are pretty damn 90's plastic fantastic looking.

n54 & s38 > itranthelasttimeiparkedit 09/17/2014 at 12:26

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Yeah, agreed. The interiors on those cars are garbage. They look worse than the 993s.

CraiginAustin > brjklein 09/17/2014 at 12:38

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I got a 04 C4S a couple of weeks ago without IMS receipt. While the risk exists, its lower than people think. The car is a total blast to drive and at $22k is a tremendous bargain. Would I like a 997.2? Sure, but it would cost $20K. You can buy a lot of tires and maintenance for $20k. I don't really care much about the interior anyways.

RallyWrench > Doug DeMuro 09/17/2014 at 13:14

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I actually have a few clients who have had us replace the IMS bearing prior to sale because of the perceived value hit, or because potential buyers have asked about it & lowballed them. But these are generally PCA types who are selling within that circle. That job is between $2-3k depending on if you do the clutch at the same time.

I've also seen two cars towed in after losing them, and it's amazing how much carnage it creates. One Boxster blew its cam chain tensioners right through the cam covers, and the other, an early 996, had pieces of valves in the exhaust. But it should be said that it's not nearly as problematic as the internet makes it seem, and I have several clients with over 100k on their Boxsters, having never done the IMS bearing.

Marioshi > Doug DeMuro 09/17/2014 at 13:40

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For under 20k it is less of a concern though. Just drive the piss out of it and hope for the best. We aren't talking about a FERRARI here Doug DeMurrari ..

RyanFrew > RallyWrench 09/17/2014 at 14:25

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Pieces of valves in the exhaust. I would actually cry.

TheInfamousMisterLicious > Drew 09/17/2014 at 14:28

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Buy a 996 with an LS swap, problem solved : http://bringatrailer.com/2013/10/18/a-s…

LloydChiro > DrScientist 09/17/2014 at 15:55

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To the first point, the first generation Boxster headlamps actually look better. They look better integrated in to the front of the car, and they look less like an apology for changing the styling of an icon.

LloydChiro > melikecars 09/17/2014 at 15:58

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Not a problem. They are the perfect ages for sitting in the back of a 911 with their car seats in place.

melikecars > LloydChiro 09/17/2014 at 16:45

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Premature mid-life crisis, here I come! :)

Thanks.

Color-Commentary > Drew 09/17/2014 at 18:19

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The 911 bubble won't pop for quite some time, so why not a 996? The thing is that you can get the whole darn engine replaced for less than the price delta between a 2001-2002 996 and an early 997. Personally I think it gets interesting somewhere below $17,500 - it's neck and neck with an E46 M3 at that price, and either is a totally understandable choice. Anything north of $20k would be interesting (to me, at least!) only if it's a unicorn with unusual and desirable colors / options and good service records.

And 996 Twin Turbos are just stupid, stupid cheap for what they offer.

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > n54 & s38 09/17/2014 at 20:14

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to me the 993 has vintage charm at this point

Eddie Brannan > Drew 09/17/2014 at 20:48

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The skyrocketing price or aircooled 911s makes me so sad. My dream car since I was a boy, and no matter how much older I get and how much more money I make they stay just as tantalizingly far out of reach.

PardonMyFlemish16 > Drew 09/17/2014 at 21:37

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My dream is to buy one with a blown engine and swap in another engine bored out to 4.0L

And swap the face and ass to a 997

The interior is still horrible and melty though.

TheBucketOfTruth > Doug DeMuro 09/18/2014 at 03:07

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He made mention of the issue (though not by name) in the article. I'm also now laughing at "Everyone should be a 996 Turbo." If that were true, who would be left to drive them?

HiredDriver > Drew 09/18/2014 at 10:50

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My current daily driver is an E46 M3 but I've been eye-balling the hell out of 996s and 997s for the past year. Personally I'm a bigger fan of the 996.1 headlight design than the 996.2 and if the 996.1 had the larger 3.6 engine and updated interior bits I'd probably own one. The problem I have with the 996 is that it looks great until parked next to a 997. Only the 996 4S comes close in the looks department but I don't want AWD. *sigh*

FlimFlamMan > Drew 09/19/2014 at 18:34

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I'd be happy with a 996 coupe 6 speed that has an upgraded IMS.