"dr861" (dr861)
09/09/2014 at 11:30 • Filed to: None
0
34|
"dr861" (dr861)
09/09/2014 at 11:30 • Filed to: None | 0
| 34 |
With all the cars out there with 600+ hp these days, and some with really affordable prices, have horsepower numbers lost their wow effect? My friend is looking to buy a beast of some sort, either zl1, gt500, or hellcat, and we were discussing some alternatives to those options, and there are also plenty available with 500+ hp. While I was talking to him, I realized how run of the mill the conversation was. 10 years ago, if I heard that a car even had 550 hp, I was sure that that much power would tear a hole in space and time.
I love horsepower, I REALLY do, and all I want is more of it, but have we become so power focused that we no longer are shocked by big hp numbers? Isn't being shocked by the power of a car part of the whole reason you get more hp?
macanamera
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 11:34 |
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My daily has 550hp. It's excessive. I think 400 is the sweet spot for a daily driver. 700 would be kind of pointless, other than being awesome.
Big Bubba Ray
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 11:36 |
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You just beat me to a write up about this. The article about the Hennessy Supercharger on the GM 6.2 got me thinking about this. There were multiple commenting on how "545 hp isn't very impressive for a V8 of that size." How much fucking horsepower are they expecting?
I bet half those FP commenters who are complaining are driving 1995 Camrys.
Milky
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 11:37 |
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WAT?! Can you speak up, I can't hear you.
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dr861
> Big Bubba Ray
09/09/2014 at 11:38 |
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Totally agree. Before I ever had a chance to drive anything with over 400 hp I was always wanting more, but after driving many powerful cars, the numbers really don't make a difference, it's about how it's delivered.
CAcoalminer
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 11:38 |
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Currently, I'm thinking 616 hp is the sweet spot for a DD.
quarterlifecrisis
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 11:44 |
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Mine is 400, and even that seems a bit absurd at times.
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Big Bubba Ray
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 11:44 |
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Nailed it. I think most of those people are equating horsepower to fun or overall performance. There's SO much more to cars than horsepower. I've driven cars ranging from 70 hp (my old 1973 Baja Bug) to a 2013 Supercharged Range Rover with over 500 horsepower. Both my cars now have under 170 hp but I manage to have plenty of fun in both of them!
Cars are pushing the envelop more and more ever year with big gains in horsepower, but when will we reach a point when this power is unusable? For example, the new Ford Taurus SHO pushes 365 hp. Do I love that a big ass sedan like that has that much power? Absolutely, but how much of it is utilized on a daily basis?
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Big Bubba Ray
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 11:45 |
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550?? What in god's name do you drive? haha
V8 Rustler
> CAcoalminer
09/09/2014 at 11:46 |
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And RWD.
crowmolly
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 11:47 |
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Absolutely.
I think 400-450 is all you need.
These days you can get whatever power you want if you are willing to spend the $$$. And if it's in a car you daily, how frequently are you up at your horsepower peak? I daily'd a 405 hp car for a few years and didn't use 50% of the power probably 80% of the time.
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CAcoalminer
> V8 Rustler
09/09/2014 at 11:48 |
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Without a doubt.
PatBateman
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 11:48 |
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Higher horsepower cars might get you to 60 a little faster than something with 500, but the REAL power of the Hellcat comes into play at higher speeds. When traction isn't a problem, and the main force prohibiting the car from going faster is air resistance.
Good for hauling ass to 60, great for hauling ass from 60 to 200.
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CAcoalminer
> Big Bubba Ray
09/09/2014 at 11:48 |
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He has a CLS63.
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macanamera
> CAcoalminer
09/09/2014 at 11:50 |
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Haha. Let me explain my reasoning...
My AMG has a big lovely V8 that makes lovely V8 noises. Unfortunately, given how much power it has (550hp/600tq), I can hit the throttle for about one single second before I am breaking a few laws.
I used to have a 2011 M3 ZCP (414hp) and with that, I could let it sing a bit on the road and get higher into the revs without making the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list.
There is no such thing as too much power, but there is such a thing as too much to enjoy on the road.
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dr861
> Big Bubba Ray
09/09/2014 at 11:50 |
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I actually won't lie, I'm lucky enough to be a member at cccmanhattan, and have driven everything from the 68 charger to the Merc SLS. Don't get me wrong, the SLS was entertaining as hell, but also fucking terrifying trying to push on back roads. The car that was the most fun by far, was a 2014 Subaru wrx sti by cobb that was pushing like 400 hp. I've never had more fun driving.
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macanamera
> crowmolly
09/09/2014 at 11:54 |
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Ya, but I have like 600tq at 1750 rpm, lol.
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CAcoalminer
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 11:54 |
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I know. I'm just messing with you.
Very well explained by the way. I especially enjoyed your final sentence.
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macanamera
> Big Bubba Ray
09/09/2014 at 11:55 |
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theuserformerlyknownasaluminumfoil
> quarterlifecrisis
09/09/2014 at 11:58 |
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I was going to say mine's a lowly 348 and at times it's far too much (85% of the time it's too much)
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crowmolly
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 12:02 |
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Ha! You are really nailing this though.
It is certainly diminishing returns.
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macanamera
> CAcoalminer
09/09/2014 at 12:04 |
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Thanks! I wanted to add one more thing:
While power can be excessive on the road, torque is just fine. I love me some torque. That's why most modern diesels are so gratifying to drive. Same goes for Tesla Model S's. I used to drive a modified Cummins Dodge Ram with 400-500 hp, but something like 1000lb/ft, and it was so, so fun...my daily now has 600 at less than 2000rpm, and it's absolutely intoxicating. This motor has the best pull from 2000rpm to 3500rpm of probably anything I've ever driven, and I can do it without committing a felony!
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macanamera
> crowmolly
09/09/2014 at 12:06 |
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My buddy has a BRZ he lets me drive, and I have to say, being able to redline every gear all the time is arguably just as fun as having lots of power.
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quarterlifecrisis
> theuserformerlyknownasaluminumfoil
09/09/2014 at 12:06 |
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Hell, mine is too much at the track at times for my current lack of skill level.
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quarterlifecrisis
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 12:09 |
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I've got to say that's a fair statement. I remember the first time I drove a Miata or a GTI; such a change from what I'm used to, and suddenly it made a lot of sense.
DoYouEvenShift
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 12:09 |
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IMO, its a 50/50 thing. Good handling and good power. The ZL1 mentioned sounds good there. For example, youll have a blast hauling ass and burning tires in the Hellcat. But when that corner comes, maybe not so much fun. In a Miata or FRS, youll have a blast in the turns and corners, but when that straight opens up. Youll look at Camrys in envy.
Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
> Big Bubba Ray
09/09/2014 at 12:14 |
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In the truck world, that isn't that impressive. In 2008 when Ford came out with the 6.4 Powerstroke, people discovered with just a tune, you could get 500whp. So basically what I am saying is, if you want a fast truck, by a used diesel with no warranty. For the money you would spend on that Hennessy, you could have a 1000hp diesel truck.
NaturallyAspirated
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 12:17 |
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I know what you mean. When I was in college, I bought myself a really nice '95 Taurus SHO, and it's 215 HP felt incredible compared to the POS late '80s Cavalier that I had been driving.
My current DD is a Subaru 4-banger wagon that shipped with 178HP and now almost certainly has considerably less. It doesn't feel slow; I can get up to highway speed on most short onramps without issue.
When I see the horsepower "war" going on now, it makes me a little sad, because, as you postulated, horsepower is no longer special. When everybody has 300HP, 300HP is no longer special.
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dr861
> DoYouEvenShift
09/09/2014 at 12:20 |
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I know right? They're so grounded to the ground.
Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 12:31 |
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Yup. For a daily, anything more than "fast enough for any halfway sane overtaking manoevre" is a waste. More than that's just for giggles, which get stale fast on a daily. Different story for an occasional-use toy though.
How much hp it takes for "fast enough" varies by car size. I'd say 400's plenty for a decent sized car, my XJR had 370 and that was fine. But 200-odd does the job in a small hatch - I've never really felt my Golf GTI needs more. Bottom end's more important than absolute power in a daily anyway - in the real world it's more useful to have enough grunt RIGHT NOW than too much too late.
As to the original question, I think it's that the benchmark keeps moving up. Nowadays "shocking" is probably 1000HP or so. 600's lots but not a big surprise.
OTOH 25 years supercars were puttign out 300, and I was driving a hot hatch with 120HP which was one of the fastest things on the road.
Mikeado
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 12:36 |
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The thing is that high power is easy now. Production engines throwing out 500 or 600 horsepower have often been detuned for reliability or even just so it's not as ridiculous (the California T's new engine is officially putting out 560HP and 557lb/ft, but was apparently tested up to well over 600 before being pegged back to avoid the 458... and is rumored to be capable of up to 750!). People often tune GM smallblocks to over 1000 horsepower with little issue when they know what they're doing.
The more important thing now is finding the right amount of power and then combining it with light weight and an ability to put that power down as effectively as possible, while being at least as entertaining and more efficient at the same time.
Tripper
> dr861
09/09/2014 at 12:49 |
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Horsepower is always worth mentioning, but has never been that important to me. My fiance's 05' Cooper S is one of the most fun cars I have ever driven and its under 200hp. Miata's are another perfect example. I love my M3 but the cooper is much more usable on public roads.
DrScientist
> Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen
09/09/2014 at 16:39 |
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it may also depend on what your daily drive is actually like. if you commute across texas interstates everyday, 550hp might seem necessary. if you tool around boston or new orleans (thinking cities with small, disconnected, shitty roads) every day, you might feel 300 is more than necessary.
i rented a camaro ss in san francisco a few years back, and i can remember thinking, any random 4 cylinder rental wouldve been coughing up those hills.
it also depends how you like to drive. everyone says turning the brz out is super fun, but are you really going to do that every day? sounds like it might get tedious (and loud) in a standard commute.
DanZman
> Big Bubba Ray
09/09/2014 at 17:05 |
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I think he has one of the high end AMG cars.
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CAcoalminer
> macanamera
09/09/2014 at 18:12 |
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Torque definitely is quite helpful. Haha