Not-So-Good Vibrations: The Contest!

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/30/2014 at 09:07 • Filed to: None

Let's play a game. I'll give you the facts and you see if you can diagnose my client's car. My client bought a brand new four-wheel-drive vehicle. He knew nothing about cars and probably never planned to take it !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! like in the picture above. (The ones in traffic did not look as fun as this.) After a few weeks of city driving, he noticed a vibration. It was slight at first but it got worse. The vibration was present when he was moving, and got worse as the car sped up. He took it to the dealer.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

A mechanic looked at it and quickly offered a diagnosis: a bad universal joint. He slapped in a new one and off my client went. The vibration was gone, at first. But then it came back. Again, it was slight at first but got worse. It took some time but pretty soon it was back and as bad as the first time. He took the car back to the dealer.

The mechanic looked at it and said he knew what the problem was: a bad u-joint. We do not know if this was the same u-joint as the other one or not, but one was replaced. The car was returned and the vibration was gone.

To save valuable internet space for things like cat videos and Facebook photos of lunch, I'll speed this story up. My client brought his vehicle in for service four times for the same vibration. Each time they replaced a u-joint. Each time the symptom disappeared for a few thousand miles and then returned. Each time they did the repairs under warranty and they never accused my client of doing anything wrong. After the 4th replacement, the vibration returned and the client hired me to sue them under the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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And, since I know that many of you are now yelling at the screen that you know what the problem REALLY was, let's do it this way. We know the problem with my client's car was not the u-joints. What was it? Fill in the blanks:

THE _______________ WAS ______________.

For this exercise, the first blank is a noun, the second is an adjective. "THE Gonkulator WAS Frozen ." [<-not a correct answer; simply an illustration of format.]

No prizes (Would I be allowed to do that?) but please, also chime in on what was really going on here besides the incompetent diagnosis. So, lead with the correct diagnosis and comment if you feel inspired. Enjoy.

Photo: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Follow him on Twitter if you liked this post. Twitter : !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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DISCUSSION (100)

Nibby > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 09:15

THE CAKE WAS A LIE

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 09:19

The idiot was leaving it in 4WD all the time.

SteveLehto > Nibby
08/30/2014 at 09:23

Interesting, but not quite. Good formatting though!

SteveLehto > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
08/30/2014 at 09:26

Nope. Dealership never even tried that one.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 09:26

Do we know if the vibration was coming from the front or the back? If he felt it in the steering wheel or underneath him? That would at least point to what was causing it.

My guess: An unbalance drive shaft or bad transmission mounts.

Jcarr > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
08/30/2014 at 09:26

Doubtful, even the most oblivious would notice the driveline binding that occurs when cornering on dry pavement in 4WD.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 09:51

Is it possible that something could be causing the u joint to fail prematurely (as opposed to normal wear), such as a unbalanced tires, bent axle, bent rim?

That it goes away to me says that they are trying to fix the problem. The fact that it comes back to me, indicates that replacement may only be addressing the symptom.

Not to be condescending, does it have knobby tires and did he ever drive a similar make/model on the highway. My cousin, bro'd out his truck and as as he doesn't do that much highway driving, never thought what it would feel like, till he went on a long trip.

Nibbles > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 09:51

The DRIVESHAFT was OUT OF BALANCE

SteveLehto > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
08/30/2014 at 09:56

Yes, the u joints were a symptom. Not tires or wheels. It was a defect covered by warranty.

SteveLehto > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 09:58

Hmmmm. Would that cause these symptoms?

Nibbles > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:01

It could've been dented, a rock could've been taped to it, manufacturing defect, worn yoke, carrier bearing damage, transmission or differential not in correct position causing driveshaft to slip/wobble...

SteveLehto > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 10:05

Narrow it to the simplest, most logical one and you have . . .

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:07

The problem was the tie rods. In my idiotic opinion anyways.

Nibbles > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:08

A dent

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss
08/30/2014 at 10:08

Are you overlooking those shapely McPherson struts?

SteveLehto > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 10:09

in the . . . ?

Nibbles > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:13

Driveshaft. Small enough to be fairly unnoticeable, likely causing very little vibration by itself, but put the shaft itself out of balance just enough to eat u-joints.

SteveLehto > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 10:15

Yes, and that is exactly what it was. Thanks for commenting.

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:16

I don't think so. I read on and realized I was wrong, but loose tie rods would still cause the car to be unstable at speed I think, even with Macpherson struts.

Nibbles > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:18

I had a good feeling about that. When I was a young'n, we used to tape rocks to the driveshafts of our enemies causing confusion, infuration, and mom+pop buying new parts :)

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss
08/30/2014 at 10:20

I was joking. It has nothing to do with any of that.

thebigbossyboss > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:22

...well that's why I am not a mechanic.

SteveLehto > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 10:22

Thats funny.

SteveLehto > thebigbossyboss
08/30/2014 at 10:23

Neither am I but I can fake it really well sometimes!

CAR_IS_MI > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:26

So were they replacing u-joints on the driveshaft or the front axle? Either way, If the driveshaft, then bent or out of balance driveshaft. If the axle, then bent axle shaft.

SteveLehto > CAR_IS_MI
08/30/2014 at 10:28

Driveshaft. And yes, you are correct. Why do you suppose they missed it? Any thoughts?

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Jcarr
08/30/2014 at 10:35

I think you underestimate the obliviousness of the average american driver...

CAR_IS_MI > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:38

In my line of work, I deal with shop employees all day long (to clarify; high performance and aftermarket shops). Everyone from the little mom and pop shop to NASCAR teams. I must say, it is truly sad, the number of people calling themselves technicians or mechanics who have no idea how to go about diagnosing any issues that can not be solved by plugging a code reader into the vehicle. Hell I've spent time walking so called engine builders through "how an engine works".

So long answer short, lack of proper education and knowledge on how to properly diagnose an issue. Sure, I might have said u-joint at first, but if it came back in with the same bad u-joint a short time later, well what else could be causing this issue?

SteveLehto > CAR_IS_MI
08/30/2014 at 10:43

Exactly. What are the odds of all those bad u joints in a row?

webmonkees > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 10:56

How was the "true" cause discovered?

Did it affect the outcome of the suit, aka

'who won?'

SteveLehto > webmonkees
08/30/2014 at 11:16

Besides being painfully obvious, our expert confirmed. Manufacturer settled.

Dake > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:21

I think we need to step back and revisit the Gonkulator. Saying it was in fact not the problem might have just been a red herring.

On the other end - this was a neat little article. The interweb is magic.

SteveLehto > Dake
08/30/2014 at 11:23

You figured it out. It was not frozen; it was miscalibrated.

Thanks for the comment.

ClassicDatsunDebate > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:26

The 4X4 was engaged.

Edit: I see the true cause has been found

SteveLehto > ClassicDatsunDebate
08/30/2014 at 11:28

No. That would have been operator error, which was never an issue.

DerekHJohnson > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:32

Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail

———————————> www.jobs700.com

ClassicDatsunDebate > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:37

We own a JK and I find it strange that your client noticed the driveshaft vibration what with all the squeaking,rattling, steering column juttering and plastic interior parts flying apart.

Richard > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:39

The angle of the dangle!!! If anything causes the angel of the driveshaft to vary, that can cause that exact symptom. Most commonly seen on improperly lifted 4wd vehicles the angle of the driveshaft will end up past it's limits, above 3 degrees but below 15, as a general rule. Anything from a badly welded subframe, to a badly positioned differntial can cause that.

sklooner > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:47

The vehicle was domestic

Mercwri > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:47

Not going to fit in that format.

But if it has been lifted the driveshaft angle can be wrong, this can cause a vibration on its own, or it can eat U-Joints.

If it is a TJ as pictured, he has a few options for correcting it.

1. Remove the lift and fit smaller tires.

2. Install a Transfer-case drop.

3. (The Correct Way) Convert to an NP241 or install a Slip Yoke Eliminator and Double Cardan Joint Drive Shaft.

HugePanic > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:51

The steering end stop WAS wrong aligned.

If the steering installed wrong, it allowed too much angle on one side. So every time you park your car, you drive the u-joint above it's limit. —> cracking the u-joint..

There is my price??

SteveLehto > Mercwri
08/30/2014 at 11:58

not jeep pictured. Stock jeep.

TheDon > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 11:59

if it's a jeep JK model then I suspect death wobble.

CarlitoBenito > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:00

The track bar was worn out.

pintowgn73 > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:09

since we know what the problem was, I'll tell you what the most likely reason for the repeated misdiagnosis was, the same person never worked on the vehicle twice. Probably a different service advisor wrote him up each time and the vehicle was given to a different tech. No one ever bothered to look at the history, so they just figured the u-joint was bad and changed it. Since the problem went away, there was no further diag performed. What should have happened is that when the customer came back for the second time, the Jeep should have been given back to the same tech who then should have dug a little deeper, since something like a u-joint rarely goes out on its own.

It happens more often than you think, though usually by the third time back, the service manager is involved and pissed off. I had one last year that is still fresh in my memory, a 2009 Sonata comes in because intermittently the key will not turn.

Our Shop foreman looked at it, decided the lock cyl needed to be lubricated, so he did that and sent them on their way. They come back a few days later and the car is given to another tech. He decides that the lock cyl housing is the cause, so he replaces it and sends them on their way. Third time back, the car is given to the shop foreman again. No one says anything about it being its third time back, he doesn't check history, lubricates the lock cyl and sends them on their way.

The forth time back and now the service manager is involved. It's given to me because, well, I really have no idea. I go out to get in the car and I verify the problem immediately. Now there are only three parts to this system, the lock cyl, the housing and the actual ign switch. The lock cyl housing is nothing more than a chunk of aluminum with a shaft in the middle that connects the lock cyl to the ign switch, so the chances that it's bad are pretty slim, especially a second time. I could feel the key binding in the lock cyl, much in the same way as if you got a bad cut on a replacement key. I popped the lock cyl out of the housing, which took all of 5 minutes, and verified that the cyl was binding with it in my hand. I ordered a new lock set and the customer never complained again.

It really just came down to laziness that no one spent any time to actually diagnose the customers problem. It happens all the time, it just usually doesn't get to lemon law territory.

torrie > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:13

my money's on the drive shaft. But don't complain; we'll end up with another reason to only sell fwd vehicles.

Wave Motion Gun > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 12:18

We always got a kick out of putting a couple of long cable ties like the ones cops use for temporary handcuffs on driveshafts. They make quite a racket...

Filmlandgrab > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:27

TIRES, FUCKED. Also, MECHANIC, SHITTY.

CobraJoe > Nibbles
08/30/2014 at 12:29

Also

Coalman > CAR_IS_MI
08/30/2014 at 12:34

YES! I don't have nearly the education or experience you do but do have some Electrical Engineering background and my response to Steve's questions was going to be "THE technician WAS improperly troubleshooting". Once of the first things my teacher taught us about troubleshooting is that when something breaks, and keeps breaking, you figure out WHY it broke. Not to just keep replacing it. He used the example of a circuit fuse continually blowing out, but the same principle applies.

CACressida > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:35

You give us no information about the vehicle because that helps tremendously. What make and model, does it have modifications such as bigger wheels, tires and a suspension lift? This information can be factored into the diagnosis.

The Burner Kept Rubbin > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:54

The MECHANIC was REALLY A PLUMBER.

r8ofdintrwebz > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 12:56

unbalanced shaft

QetWzPJKV6IFGCe > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 13:12

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Micro-dosing Gawker's Tears > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 13:19

it's a V6 mustang.

Kinja'd!!!

bdc20313@toiea.com > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 13:32

———————————> http://www.jobs700.com

Have Jeep, will travel. > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 13:56

lots of things can keep a u-joint failing. I'm a Jeep owner, so I know. Bad driveshaft angle, misaligned parts, bent driveshaft, out of balance shaft, shit replacement joints. Depending on the jeep it could have several joints. my K5 had two in the rear shaft, THREE in the front, one at each front axle shaft....... so if they replaced the same one..... yeah, thats a bandaid over a knife wound.

SteveLehto > r8ofdintrwebz
08/30/2014 at 13:57

Bingo!

DetroitMuscle > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 14:07

u-joints, Made in China

SteveLehto > The Burner Kept Rubbin
08/30/2014 at 14:18

Probably true.

laurs_ospabr > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 14:18

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

SteveLehto > CACressida
08/30/2014 at 14:19

And still, we have quite a few correct answers.

SteveLehto > torrie
08/30/2014 at 14:19

The driveshaft . . . what?

SteveLehto > pintowgn73
08/30/2014 at 14:21

YES!

CACressida > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 14:28

I can tell you that if the vehicle was lifted, the angle of the pinion was altered and the driveshaft is binding causing the u-joints to wear out. Assuming if the differential was relocated.

SteveLehto > DetroitMuscle
08/30/2014 at 14:31

Except, not the u joints.

SteveLehto > CACressida
08/30/2014 at 14:32

Not lifted. Totally stock.

SteveLehto > Have Jeep, will travel.
08/30/2014 at 14:54

And one of your choices is correct.

SteveLehto > Filmlandgrab
08/30/2014 at 14:56

Not tires. Maybe on the mechanic.

SteveLehto > CarlitoBenito
08/30/2014 at 14:58

No.

SteveLehto > Richard
08/30/2014 at 14:59

All true, but not in this instance.

SteveLehto > ClassicDatsunDebate
08/30/2014 at 15:00

I had one too. Handled and sounded like a shopping cart.

SteveLehto > sklooner
08/30/2014 at 15:01

True. But there is a better answer.

ToastedTires > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 16:00

it would help to know which u-joint...I'm guessing he always had it in 4-hi part time?

SteveLehto > ToastedTires
08/30/2014 at 16:22

No. It was not operator error. Quite a few people have gotten it right from these facts.

ToastedTires > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 16:48

I'm on pain killers... It made sense later that it was repeatedly getting worn out due to a driveshaft defect.

SteveLehto > ToastedTires
08/30/2014 at 16:52

Understood. Thanks for commenting.

Have Jeep, will travel. > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 17:16

When it came back needing another u-joint, that should have been their first clue. I do this for a living and let me tell you, there are guys in my own shop I wouldn't let work on my own car. Terrible huh? However its not as easy to fire people anymore. I can't just go "you're a piece of shit and a crook that does shitty work, get your shit and get out" which is unfortunate. Rest assured no car leaves with shitty work, or gets sold stuff that it doesn't need. We have safety valves in place that keep these guys in check best we can and they do get canned at the nearest opportunity that won't involve us getting sued for wrongful termination. I hate them. They give the rest of us a bad name that respect our customers and their cars and try hard to maintain a good reputation. Like lawyers, cops and contractors, a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

SteveLehto > Have Jeep, will travel.
08/30/2014 at 17:27

Great description. This case was very unusual. Even I couldn't believe these facts when I first heard them.

mshefler > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 18:15

I would think a bad transfer case or drive shaft

SteveLehto > mshefler
08/30/2014 at 18:17

pick one. Which is more likely?

mshefler > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 18:20

transfer case. A bad drive shaft would be a lot easier to diagnose

SteveLehto > mshefler
08/30/2014 at 18:25

That's the irony. It was the driveshaft. Painfully obvious to us but not them.

Rainbow > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 18:29

I'm actually pretty certain that the gonkulator really WAS frozen.

SteveLehto > Rainbow
08/30/2014 at 18:36

Normally I would agree with you but the Jeep gonkulator is metric. Rookie mistake.

Doug Radcliffe > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 18:57

The STEREO was PUMPIN' OUT SOME PHAT BASS, YO

SteveLehto > Doug Radcliffe
08/30/2014 at 19:03

Hadn't considered that. Just as plausible as the other answers.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 19:21

Entertaining, but it could be a number of things... Honestly, I doubt the driveshaft has anything to do with it (though, short wheelbase jeeps do have such problems).

Have the tires been balanced? are there any separated cords? a vibration that gets increasingly worse but doesn't change in frequency as the vehicle shifts gears eliminates a great number of things.

Story, before I went to law school - I bought a Toyota Tacoma truck, it had 18,000 miles on it. I bought it because I wanted something reliable for the aforementioned school. It had the same kind of vibration, yet they'd take the tires off do whatever they thought was the problem, put them back on and the vibration would go away for a bit. Eventually, I gave up (still won't own a Toyota because of this) - I found out later that the car had been bought back by Toyota for the problems the former owner had.

So... to fill in the blanks - the TIRES were OUT-OF-BALANCE

or... the car is a POS and the vibration is coming from something other than the tires/wheels - rather coming from bad bearing in an axle. You do need to, however, tell us what the vehicle is... IFS vehicles have more ways to get vibrations

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 19:22

the car couldn't leave the factory and survive the roller test if the weights were knocked off... it could, however, occur if the weights were knocked off during unloading.

SteveLehto > Prophet of hoon
08/30/2014 at 19:25

Quite a few people got it. Bent driveshaft. Where did you go to law school?

SteveLehto > Prophet of hoon
08/30/2014 at 19:27

The driveshaft was bent. I suspect it got dinged in transport.

pktzygt > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 20:18

The 4wd was on.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 20:33

Seattle U - about 50% of what I do is car stuff.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 20:34

Or they unloaded the (brand new) car with a forklift... true story.

SteveLehto > pktzygt
08/30/2014 at 21:50

No. That would have been operator error.

SteveLehto > Prophet of hoon
08/30/2014 at 21:52

Cool. I went to Southwestern U in Los Angeles.

SteveLehto > Prophet of hoon
08/30/2014 at 21:53

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Notafancypants > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 22:59

Did it have manual or self locking hubs? Locking diffs?

It could be anything from a broken motor/transmission/transfer case mount putting the drive shafts at a weird angles.

U joints have already been "Replaced"(I saw that because I can only assume.)

bent axle inside the housing?

Bent trans tailshaft?

Was he leaving it in 4WD and always driving around on pavement?

Did he leave his vibrator on and in the seat pocket?

EDIT:

And it was a dent in the driveshaft...

imprezanoturbo > SteveLehto
08/30/2014 at 23:10

The RIM was BENT. One of the wheel rims is bent. My car was hit on the side of the road. No visible damage to the rim but it would make the car vibrate at 40+ mph.

theonetruetom > SteveLehto
08/31/2014 at 00:07

Offhand, I'd say they never even bothered to turn and examine the driveshaft after the second U-joint. Or it was dented in such a way as to be unnoticeable to the unobservant eye. I might have replaced the first U-joint, but when it came in for the second one I definitely would have been examining the straightness of the driveshaft with a laser pointer.