"Kailand09" (kailand09)
08/20/2014 at 22:51 • Filed to: None
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"Kailand09" (kailand09)
08/20/2014 at 22:51 • Filed to: None | 0
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I am thinking of, as a learning exercise, designing and building my own vehicle. Now, you may be thinking, "DUDE! Awesome, but you're WAY in over your head". Well, I've heard that on previous projects, so I'll prove the naysayers wrong! So here's the details...
This is, first and foremost, a learning exercise for me. As an engineer, I desire to have my own project for enjoyment, and to use said projects to continue my education and knowledge base. I do NOT expect to have a championship-level race car that can beat already engineered cars. I desire only to learn, and to end up with something fun and useable from it.
My current idea for the order in which I do this (at a very simple level) is-
1) Decide on the car's direction, general engine size, etc **Edit** I will be using a 600cc motorcycle engine or similar, I believe. Cost, weight, and power are pretty good on these.
2) Gather a few books and other resources to study over a period of 6+ months
3) Begin designing alongside continued study
4) Complete major components selection
5) Complete frame design with these components in mind
6) Begin building of the car, while still continuing design and ongoing studies
7) Finish build and move to physical testing (I include simulations in the word "design")
So before I really delve deeper into learning, I'd like a general ballpark idea of where I'd like to go, so that I know which key concepts will be a bigger focus. While I will do my best to take it all in, I'd like a somewhat clear concept of what I want in the end.
So I call upon your help, Oppo! I'm thinking something close to a DSR car, but not so hopped-up. I'm not going to be able to match DSR level performance, and if I ever want to track it with SCCA I'd be nowhere near competitive. I'm looking to go closer to a 100HP power figure, as I need to learn to drive a quick car outside of iRacing.
So there are two major things which I desire to shoot for, of which I may not achieve both.
1) Trackability. I'd like to design it to be able to race it in a series that is accessible to me. If not a series, I'd at least like to hit a point where I may be allowed to just race it for fun every once in a blue moon, like time trials at an autox. Any insight on classes in which a car similar to my description could do so?
2) Street Legality. I think having a car to tool around in would be super fun. I've seen some ridiculous stuff driving on the road, and figure I should be able to make this car road legal. I've read things about wind shields and wipers, which to me is the most difficult. Suspension height may also be an issue, I'm not sure. I'd probably just lower it down after registration if I wanted to track it? Either way, this could take care of some of my massive desires for a sport car without necessarily paying a massive amount.
Think I could get away with a motorcycle windshield as it is a custom built car? Having read through most of the required equipment and grounds for road legality, the rest doesn't seem difficult given this will be a ground up build. Can you guys think of anything I'm missing?
Yes, I know this is a huge project undertaking and will take massive amounts of time, but I really want to go for it, and have too much free time anyway. Why not be super productive and learn something??
Also, I will likely try to make up a blog somewheres (possibly thru kinja here?) that follows my progress. It will certainly show up on Oppo once any reasonable progress is seen.
TLDR: I want to build a DSR-like race car, possibly make it street legal. I'm curious about motorcycle windshields on a car for road legality, and what racing series a 100hp DSR like car could be in?
pedal-force
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:00 |
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I don't think it's a ridiculous proposition. I assume you plan to use running gear and components that are already made? You can't exactly build an engine from scratch, or build springs, or make a shock, or tires.
I'm guessing something like "get metal, build tube frame, attach components to tube frame, make bodywork and attach to frame" sort of deal? So like a kit car, but you design the frame and bodywork? You may fuck it up royally and it won't be great to drive, but it will certainly be a fun learning experience.
I'd caution you against thinking it will be cheap though. Doing things one-off, especially without a prior knowledge of car prototyping and a huge parts bin to pull from, will likely be very expensive.
Good luck!
Arben72
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:01 |
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100 hp is slow even in something that weighs 500kg. You'll want at least double that. Are you considering a kit-car, or are you building something completely custom? How good of a mechanic are you? It might be easier to buy some cheap car at rebuild it for practice so you can more comfortably work on this. Gl and seems like your going to have a lot of fun, you better keep us updated.
Dusty Ventures
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:03 |
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There are others who can provide more info than me, but street legality will depend on what state you live in. For example, Arizona allows damn near anything (you can even license and drive around in one of those side-by-side UTV's). Massachusetts, where I live, is far more stringent, with a laundry list of requirements that includes height limits, fender requirements (namely that the tire width isn't allowed to go beyond the fender width, though I see trucks in violation of that one from time to time), and mandatory windshield defrosters, even in open cars like a Manx buggy.
vdub_nut: scooter snob
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:07 |
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1) Decide on the car's direction, general engine size, etc
Something reliable as fuck and decently powered, but never put in a fast vehicle.
Truth be told, if you're going this nutso, get a kit car, something with bodywork and running gear pre-engineered, but lacking, say...... an assembled nature.
tromoly
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:12 |
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www.kimini.com , www.dpcars.net , www.midlana.com. Read the entirety of each of those sites.
As for books, basically get everything from the book list on the Kimini site. And when it says "spend a year researching before doing anything", spend a year researching before doing anything.
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Kailand09
> Dusty Ventures
08/20/2014 at 23:17 |
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Wow that is crazy how stringent that is. In WI, I believe it isn't bad at all, I'll have to call in. Just thought I'd hear about others' experience.
Thanks for the input! The state's website didn't go into that much detail, so that's why I'm still wondering.
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Kailand09
> tromoly
08/20/2014 at 23:19 |
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Thanks! I definitely plan on spending a shit ton of time researching, might not be a year before I touch anything at all as I know I'm impatient, but I get married next summer. So there won't be much time to do physical touching anyway.
I have already read completely through the D1 blog, and man that was cool. I don't plan anything quite that elaborate, however. He spent a MASSIVE amount of cash. Also, I should have access to the machinery to make a lot of the parts myself that he had to have made for him.
Great response! Thanks!
KylesPerGallon
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:20 |
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I'm studying mechanical engineering currently. Theres a lot of material on the subject especially locost builds like what you're trying to do. It's by no means an easy project but it is feasible
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Kailand09
> Arben72
08/20/2014 at 23:25 |
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Completely custom, and I expect to be closer to 320-350kg range. Yea, 100hp is slow, but I want a powerplant that is stock near that where I can choose to get up closer to 120hp with simple upgrades, and possible closer to 150-175 with a turbo if I want to go that route if not change the motor out.
The reason I say 100hp is because I have zero experience getting to drive a car that can truly corner and accelerate fairly quickly. Before putting myself into a massively quick car, I'd like to start easy. Maybe this is misled, I'll have to think about it.
In terms of my mechanical abilities, I'm OK. I do have friends who are much better, however, who are willing to help out where I need it. Design wise I should be able to achieve something decent, actually building I will certainly need help!
Updates will be plentiful once they become interesting. Not much interesting updates until I'm done studying and researching though.
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Kailand09
> vdub_nut: scooter snob
08/20/2014 at 23:31 |
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I thought about this... however it wouldn't allow me to do a few things. That being
1) learn the intricacies of design and be able to have engineered the thing ground up. A kit car requires only knowledge of (for lack of better phrasing) screwing on some bolts. It's more complicated than that, but the dynamics, calculations, etc are all things I want to learn from and believe I can do.
2) The initial investment will be much greater, since most kits start without a drive line at like $40k. Cheap ones maybe down to $20k, but that is still without a lot of things. With some of the resources I will have access to, I don't expect to be putting down quite that much. A much lighter car powered by a lightweight, $500 used 600cc motorcycle motor with a custom welded frame will end up a bit cheaper. Not that cost is the main factor here, but it is something.
The frame itself will end up very reasonable, given the $.5-.7 per inch 4130 chromaly tube steel pricing. Buying one already made will be WAY more than just the 4130 material price.
It is a good idea to go pre-made, but I really want to be able to stretch my wings and learn some very in depth engineering concepts through the build.
Racing Archivist
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:31 |
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I believe Radical does have a version which is street legal.
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Kailand09
> KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 23:32 |
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Yup! Definitely looked into the locost a bit. This will be quite similar in the end I'm sure, but I may do the layout a bit different than they do.
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Kailand09
> Racing Archivist
08/20/2014 at 23:37 |
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Very interesting! Didn't know that
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Racing Archivist
> Kailand09
08/20/2014 at 23:43 |
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I believe I read that sometime when I was browsing their website one night when I wanted to go racing in either P1 or P2 in SCCA.
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tromoly
> Kailand09
08/21/2014 at 00:13 |
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Were you involved in FSAE in college?
sdwarf36
> Kailand09
08/21/2014 at 00:33 |
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You don't want a 600-the power range is small at all at the top. For the exact same space, you can use a Suzuki 1000. Depending on the year, you're looking at 150-170 hp.
Figure out what to do about reverse.
If you plan on copying a D/SR, you got some things that will hinder you. For one-no ground clearance. And two-very little shock travel. And three-they are set up very stiff-to get around one + two.
Zibodiz
> Kailand09
08/21/2014 at 00:40 |
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You might be interested in checking out MAX; Mother Earth News' entry into the Automotive X-Prize. It was a gar engineered from scratch with a bit of the running gear from (I think) an old Toyota station wagon and a diesel engine from a tractor. He covers a lot about the legality of windshields, etc (he doesn't have one at all now, he just engineered the wind out of his face), and he has autocrossed it. I believe it's about a 60hp engine, but of course he was trying to focus more on the mileage than the track performance. Since he started, he's gone back and redone it in significant ways, and the chassis is basically just a locust now, but even still, he's got a lot of useful information for those looking to start from scratch. He has a website and youtube videos about it: http://www.kineticvehicles.com/MAX.html
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Kailand09
> Zibodiz
08/21/2014 at 06:09 |
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Wow looks pretty awesome, I'll definitely be reading further into that after work today. thanks!
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Kailand09
> sdwarf36
08/21/2014 at 06:15 |
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Hm, I'll have to think about engine choice more that is for sure. Are you saying the power range is "all at the top"? Just making sure I read correctly. The GSXR1000 engines seem pretty darn light, but are a bit pricey. I may just have to go that route. I don't know if I want something quite that powerful yet either though. Trying to be careful with where I go with this.
In terms of DSR, I don't plan to be exactly like one. It was more of a generic idea of size and some idea of design direction. It would end up quite different should I want to shoot for street legality!
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Kailand09
> tromoly
08/21/2014 at 06:17 |
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Unfortunately no, our school banned our team before I got there. I wish! But now is my opportunity to make up for it.
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Kailand09
> Racing Archivist
08/21/2014 at 06:17 |
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Yeah I actually looked at it after you mentioned that and saw a bunch of stories about it. If only I had the cash right?
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sdwarf36
> Kailand09
08/21/2014 at 07:19 |
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A gsxr 1000 weighs 152 lbs-and in stock trim 01-05's make about 150 hp + upper 60's for torque-and you can find them all day for $1500. www.dwarfcarracing.com is a good place. A gsxr 600 maybe be a couple lbs lighter but is only 100hp + 40 ft lbs of torque. Both use the same mount bolts. Max torque comes in at around 7500 for the 1000—-closer to 10k for the 600.
48 Spoons
> Kailand09
08/21/2014 at 08:00 |
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If you are looking at auto-x rules, it should fall somewhere in the A to F Mod categories.
Also I think it s a really good idea to start it as something slower that you can later upgrade. Starting in a slower car will usually lets you learn how to be a fast driver better since there will be less to hide behind than with a faster car.
twochevrons
> Kailand09
08/21/2014 at 09:11 |
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The Locost 7 might be worth looking into as well. Even if you don't want a Lotus 7 replica, it's a design that can be DIY fabricated, and I'm sure there's a wealth of information available from those who have done it.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
It is designed around British-market donor cars (the original design used the running gear from a Mk1 or 2 Ford Escort, a more recent version suggests the Ford Sierra), but I came across the website of somebody who has built one in the US: http://www.locostusa.com .
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
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Kailand09
> twochevrons
08/21/2014 at 17:03 |
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Thanks for the USA link. I have read about the issues and such of using US-based cars for it.
I will definitely use inspiration from the Locost, though my design will be entirely custom, as I want to learn the more technical aspects of the design instead of following instructions pre-made.
The locost is a great resource though. Especially looking at a US one.
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Kailand09
> 48 Spoons
08/21/2014 at 17:13 |
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Thanks! I'll look into those classes. I have been confused with the class system and where this would go.
Also, finally some support on the smaller motor! I've been racked all day thinking if I really want to bump up to a 1000cc motor, it just seems too much for a start. I can always try to sell the car if I REALLY needed to in order to make funds for one with a bigger engine. Though designing in the option to upgrade shouldn't be difficult at all.
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Kailand09
> sdwarf36
08/21/2014 at 17:14 |
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See, I don't know that I'd mind going for the 600 since I'm going to be very novice to a rear drive car, let alone one that will be capable of what I intend to design. With the option to move up to a 1000, I'm not sure I will start off that powerful. You definitely have me thinking though lol.
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Kailand09
> sdwarf36
08/21/2014 at 21:54 |
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Maybe I'll cut in the middle and grab a 750 instead of the full 1000 and I hear it is significantly better than the 600. Thoughts?
