Question for Oppo Engineers

"Kailand09" (kailand09)
08/14/2014 at 18:26 • Filed to: None

Hey guys, I have a lot of free time currently. I don't know that I can afford the resources right now to pay for software and such to do freelance Mechanical engineering (though I'd really love to freelance). I still want to keep my mind busy instead of just playing video games etc after work.

I have a huge interest in cars, though I do not work in the automotive engineering industry. I want to learn about automotive design, mostly just for the fun of it while also enhancing my knowledge base and abilities in my own workplace. Concepts across industries can help solve real problems, so why not?

That said, I don't know how to go about doing this. Are there books I should read? What resources should I go for that aren't overly excessive that will take 10 years to learn from? While this could be a 10 year hobby, I don't know where to start.

In addition to all this, I was hoping to apply this knowledge after researching some, and try to make something . I have access to NC's, laser cutters, you name it. I thought a good way may to be making a go-kart. Maybe I could design a simple frame, suspension, steering, etc over a few years. Does this sound reasonable? Is this not worth my time?

I know "don't reinvent the wheel", but if you never build one you won't understand how it works. This would purely be a learning exercise that I'd like to use for fun.

Comments? Opinions? Interesting resources I may seek out?

Thanks!

DISCUSSION (47)

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 18:28

try to download the free student version of Inventor

webmonkees > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 18:40

K'Nex sets, the ones with a bazillion pieces.

[ image of clever construction made out a extraordinary number of K'nex. ]

It'd take me 10 minutes to reproduce that drawing, albeit with a rubber band motor. I didn't get the deluxe set.

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 18:51

Student version of autodesk inventor or ptc's creo parametric.

Kailand09 > Phyrxes once again has a wagon!
08/14/2014 at 19:20

That is for design, but do you have any suggestions on learning the why to the design? Or does that explain the how too?

Kailand09 > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/14/2014 at 19:21

Does this also explain the why of design, or is it just a design tool?

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 19:24

I will look up some sheetmetal and tube resources when I get back to my PC. Its all stuff I have used for students when coaching competitive robotics.

Kailand09 > Phyrxes once again has a wagon!
08/14/2014 at 19:30

Thanks! I'm really looking to get into suspension damping ratios, all that. I kind of would like to get in depth with automotive engineering to a degree where I at least have a pretty sound idea of the technical aspects of vehicles.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 19:35

I was curious about similar things a while back. I did get a few book recommendations:

- Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken (Apparently this is THE book on the subject)

- Fundamentals of Vechile Dynamics (by Tom Gillespie)

- Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals by John Hey wood (apparently THE book on internal combustion engines)

Kailand09 > BaconSandwich is tasty.
08/14/2014 at 19:39

Very nice. How did they work out for you? I'd love to have a vehicle to work on and design, and a cheap go-kart might be my way to go... work my way up eventually to some weird Atom-like object in 30 years lol.

I can build a go-kart no problem, and may take some further research and help if I want to design my own suspension etc, but it means nothing if I don't know the engineering behind it and just build it.

That's Engineering? > BaconSandwich is tasty.
08/14/2014 at 19:43

Good selections. TheHeywood book is good; We used it in my class, and it is the standard. Also, the Gillespie book is a good basis, but it really is just that - a basis. Haven't finished RCVD yet. Sitting on my floor...

VC240 > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 19:44

Building an FSAE car like in your picture? Those things are FUN!

As for resources, someone mentioned RCVD by Milliken, which is an excellent suggestion! I would also say take a look at any of Carroll Smith's "...To Win" books, namely "Tune to Win" and "Prepare to Win". Haven't had a chance to look at "Engineer To Win" yet, but I'd imagine it's just as helpful. Keep in mind these books more relate to racecar design, but the basic concepts can be used for regular 4-wheel vehicles.

Lastly, apparently Bosch has THE definitive Automotive engineering book that covers pretty much everything you'd want to know and more. As for what it is or what it looks like, I don't know. I've never seen it and forgot the title. Also, not cheap. It's like $100 from what I remember.

Hope that helps! And good luck in your endeavors!

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 19:51

I am an Industrial Design Student at the Art Institute Of Colorado. My Observational drawing teacher (also an industrial designer (he worked with graco and kitchen aid)) recommended this book to me:

http://www.designsketching.com/learningcurves…

jesuschrysler-geo-cpt-planet > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 19:51

My friend. I am in the same boat as you. I have been reading until I have enough money to start a project. Tons of math, great ideas and stuff to get your brain turning. I suggest:

Welding/Composites:

http://www.amazon.com/How-To-Weld-Mo…

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http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca…

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Engine math/practice:

http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Au…

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http://www.amazon.com/David-Vizards-…

Suspension:

http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Aero:

http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Ca…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Turbo:

http://www.amazon.com/Turbocharging-…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

General Principles:

http://www.amazon.com/Tune-Win-scien…

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http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-Win-C…

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Everything:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XEA3E2/…

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 19:52

Honestly, I haven't had time to check any of them out. I'm just in the process of finishing a Master's in Computer Science (my oral thesis defense is tomorrow), and I'm also starting to work full-time, as well as am trying to get my own programming projects off the ground. Time is at a premium.

I've been thinking pretty much the same thing - make something small, then go bigger. Ideally, I'd like to take a classic (1940-1950's) truck and drop in a crazy plug-in hybrid drive train. Like a 3 cylinder ecoboost and a ton of batteries. Unfortunately I don't have the skills, time, or space to take on such a project.

I'd recommend just reading as much as possible. There does seem to be a lot of interesting books out there.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > That's Engineering?
08/14/2014 at 19:53

I've also been wanting to check out:

- Build Your Own Sports Car for as Little as 250 pounds!

- How to Build a Cheap Sports Car by Kieth Tanner

I love the idea of building my own Lotus Super 7, then working up to something like a homemade BAC Mono.

Kailand09 > BaconSandwich is tasty.
08/14/2014 at 19:54

I know how you feel. Luckily, I'm not doing a masters just yet, working full time but nothing to do after work. I had a personal project, but it became clear it is too big for me to handle alone, and resources are too scarce to continue :(

I'll let you know if I get one of those books and if I like it!

Kailand09 > jesuschrysler-geo-cpt-planet
08/14/2014 at 19:55

Holy hot damn. You own all of these? Perfect response, what order are you taking all those books in?

Kailand09 > VC240
08/14/2014 at 19:57

Thanks, great suggestions! Perfectly what I'm looking for. Do you do any auto design?

Also, likely not close to an FSAE car right away, as those cost anywhere from $10k-30k. Think more go-kart with 8 horse motor, and move up from there. Given I have some resources at my disposal (bending machines, NC, welding, other power tools, etc) I should only be looking at paying for the cost of materials. But obviously it can get expensive still, so FSAE style may be out of the question for now.

Kailand09 > That's Engineering?
08/14/2014 at 20:01

Would you say it is necessary that I go through Heywood? I am a mechanical engineer by trade, but haven't ever looked into any automotive topics unfortunately. I understand many basic concepts of how things work, so I'm not sure if I need it or not?

I'm not implying I'm "too good" for it or anything, just don't want to waste my money/time either.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 20:12

It's CAD, but you can also use it to model forces.

You could always get an Associates degree, if you really want to learn.

Kailand09 > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/14/2014 at 20:15

Yeah I know that is CAD, but I just wasn't sure if there were aspects to it that teach you.

I work with Solidworks daily so nothing new really. In terms of an associates, a bit expensive since I'm still paying off student loans. And honestly, if I get told which books to read I can learn it all on my own.

Kailand09 > That's Engineering?
08/14/2014 at 20:17

oops I meant is the Gillespie worth it.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 20:22

Please do!

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 20:35

These are some of the resources that I have my students use. This was put together by a Canadian team that won the world championship for FRC (First Robotics Challenge) in 2013.

Library of files (they use solid works)

http://www.team610.com/portfolio_page…

Design Tutorials Includes gearboxes and such items, heavy focus on sheetmetal.

http://www.team610.com/wp-content/upl…

Kailand09 > Phyrxes once again has a wagon!
08/14/2014 at 20:54

very awesome thanks! I will definitely be checking that out.

jesuschrysler-geo-cpt-planet > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 21:36

Yep, and my library is still growing. (pro tip: give your amazon wishlist out for Christmas/birthday)

I would start with the general principles books, then go into a more specific book (suspension, engine tuning, etc), then I would get the "everything book" RVCD. That will build up a good knowledge base and then give you equations to conceptualize and plan what you want to do. Then I would get into the fabrication books once you have some stuff to practice on.

tc_corty > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 21:59

Have you thought of doing the degree through distance education. One subject per semester. They've got pretty much online only Uni's here in aus so I'd guess they would where you are. That way you're learning with some sort of structure, getting tested on what you know and end up with a nice bit of paper to hang on your wall. Whilst doing my apprenticeship I was doing a BEng by distance so I didn't have to work work for the rest of my life. Just a thought.

Once you've found a collection of books or whatever make a post with all that you've found. I've previously looked around for in depth automotive books as well.

On the other hand, jumping in and building something and learning as you go, will teach you lots. Pretty much how I've taught myself about cars and there pretty much isn't a job I haven't done to my car, except rebuild a slush box. But that's coming soon haha

Kailand09 > tc_corty
08/14/2014 at 22:18

haha, yeah I do still plan to build something. That's the go-kart eque idea. But I'm thinking more like 250cc dirt bike motor instead, a bit more power than a 7 or 8 horse little thing.

Degree is a great idea, but honestly I'm paying off my current Eng degree still. If I go for a masters maybe I'll think about focusing that way. For now, I am pretty good at teaching myself.

I will 100% come back with feedback on what I find.

tc_corty > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 22:39

Yeah, a mate and I have always wanted to build something like that. I remember in the the back of the old stick mags (servo girl book), there were ads for instructions on how to build one. http://www.eziplans.com pretty sure that was the company, same lame colour schemes on the buggy's pictured. But I suppose it defeats the purpose of learning all these things if you've go plans..

Kailand09 > tc_corty
08/14/2014 at 22:43

sure does! lol.

finding a cheap 250cc seems difficult though...

Kailand09 > tc_corty
08/14/2014 at 23:07

after looking a bit, fuck it. It's cheaper and more accessible to find engines and parts for a 600cc sport bike engine. YOLO

That's Engineering? > Kailand09
08/14/2014 at 23:08

Eh, hard to tell. It has some decent examples; it's not math intensive, but there is a lot of emphasis on locating mathematically the CG for a vehicle, suspensions systems, etc., damping and frequencies, and things kind of like that. A lot of the the stuff I already knew, but it also had a lot of subtleties and details that I hadn't considered. It's really just how much you think you know, I suppose.

That's Engineering? > BaconSandwich is tasty.
08/14/2014 at 23:09

Yeah that would be pretty cool. I'd love to do something like that, but as I'm currently in grad school, I don't exactly have the money or time right now.

BJohnson11 > Kailand09
08/15/2014 at 00:25

Thats an FSAE car you posted. If you're in school, best bet is to join a Formula SAE team. Lots to learn there.

VC240 > Kailand09
08/15/2014 at 02:26

I'm actually studying Mechanical Engineering right, trying to get my BS. I've been on my school's FSAE Team for 5 years now, going on 6. I've mostly done frame design, but I've learned a lot from hanging around and helping out the other systems. I plan to make a FSAE car with a Hayabusa motor when I'm in the workforce, but that's later in life.

Go-kart=racecar as far as I'm concerned, and it sounds like a fun little project! Also, must be nice to have all those tools at your disposal. Too cool!

Kailand09 > VC240
08/15/2014 at 06:16

Very cool, I wish my school had a team but our admin banned it. Didn't realize we had a baja team until it was way too late.

The Smith books get great reviews btw, very good suggestion.

Also yeah, I am fortunate to work somewhere that does a lot of their own manufacturing.

Kailand09 > BJohnson11
08/15/2014 at 06:17

Unfortunately, I am no longer in school. Also unfortunately, my school's admin had banned fsae, and I didn't find out we had a baja team until it was way too late. :(

Kailand09 > That's Engineering?
08/15/2014 at 06:20

Thanks, I'll probably start with something a bit less in depth and work up.

Kailand09 > BaconSandwich is tasty.
08/15/2014 at 06:20

This does sound like an insanely fun project... lol

BJohnson11 > Kailand09
08/15/2014 at 09:51

Brutal. With that knowledge, if suspension knowledge/design is what you're after, OptimumKinetics is the go to program in the FSAE world for suspension modeling/design. Probably not free, but I guess that's what I'll throw in.

And I'll throw in another recommendation for Milliken's book.

uofime > Kailand09
08/15/2014 at 10:01

As mentioned RVCD is a good reference book. It is difficult to read, but covers vehicle dynamics well.

If you have intelligent questions you can search or ask them on the FSAE forum, there is a lot of information there. Just be warned there are more than a few assholes there who will jump down your throat if you ask stupid questions

tc_corty > Kailand09
08/15/2014 at 12:30

YUUUUSS! That'll be insane

Kailand09 > uofime
08/15/2014 at 19:28

thanks! solid advice, definitely will keep it to intelligent questions

Itsmemupos > Kailand09
08/22/2014 at 17:29

As far as the go-kart is concerned, the guy who ran our metal shop while I at Texas Tech built up a go-kart in his spare time. The cool part is that is machined/fabbed a 2:3ish scale 3-rotor wankel for the go bits. It was pretty damn cool. On the plus side you would get a lot of great modeling/design experience out of it.

Kailand09 > Itsmemupos
08/22/2014 at 18:22

that sounds like a fun build! Yeah that is my main motivation, to learn and improve

knheidtrider > webmonkees
08/28/2014 at 12:25

I fully support this comment. While I'm more of a Lego guy myself, growing up I found that I can much more easily and effectively understand a design that I can interact with physically and modify before pulling the trigger and fabricating it full-size.

Also, CAD software and a 3D printer are great for this as well, but the entry cost is a fair bit steeper.

webmonkees > knheidtrider
08/28/2014 at 13:42

If you have Tuesday Morning discount retailer nearby, kits show up occasionally.