WRC vs Production Car Rant

"Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire" (arch-duke-maxyenko)
08/08/2014 at 19:59 • Filed to: None

Let me start by saying that modern WRC cars are friggin sweet. All wheel drive turbo four cylinder monsters capable of amazing speed and damn near achieving flight off of jumps. But, I have an issue.

You can't buy a Fiesta with bulging fender flares and AWD. You can't even get either of those two things individually. So, while the WRC cars are production based, they're not production cars. Shit, even in the Group B days you could buy an RS200 or a Renault Turbo 5 or a MG 6R4 or any of the others because they were required to build and sell homologation cars. Then even after Group B was banned, you could still buy a Lancia Delta Integrale Evo II with crazy power and AWD. Then the Lancet Evo's and Subaru WRX STi's were born and you could go down to your dealer and buy one.

Why doesn't the WRC return to homologation cars? Don't say it's a budget thing, because you can recoup costs after you sell enough cars to the public. And it's not like paying companies to develop and build full blown rally cars is cheap.

DISCUSSION (29)

Brian Silvestro > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:01

Exactly. They can't build 200 examples of an AWD fender-flared homologation Fiesta?? Bullshit.

Conan > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:05

It would make everybody love WRC more and hearken to the Group B era.

aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:08

the FIA should make it that all WRC cars have to have the same body lines of their street brethren that way EVERYONE WILL GET WIDEBODY FORDS

or the WRC cars will look the street models

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Conan
08/08/2014 at 20:08

You can't tell me that seeing a small hatch embarrass a Ferrari wouldn't make more rally fans

T5Killer > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:13

I would love if most racing series had to do homologation cars.

Formula4speed > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:16

Whether you like it or not, it is a budget thing. Creating even the simplest additional production variant costs at least 10 million (that's the cheapest I've seen, at least)—and that's talking about just a body mod. Additional drivetrain configurations are going to be orders of magnitude more expensive. You quickly get into having to charge six figures for a fiesta.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:18

why don't any supercar makers make superhatchbacks? I don't really think the Local Motors thing counts for what I mean.

But I think I saw an Evo video a while ago about this with a fiesta. I'll look it up when I get to a computer

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Formula4speed
08/08/2014 at 20:35

You don't have to make them on the production lines, which is where a majority of the tooling costs come from, unless you intend to make thousands of them. If you make a small amount of them with an off line, subcontracted manufacturer and use the parts that have already been developed and made for the cars, your expenditures will drop because you're not paying to change an existing line.

One offs are expensive, but the price only goes down with the more you make until it eventually plateaus.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
08/08/2014 at 20:39

Because the market wouldn't exist. But the market does exist for a super hatch from a mainstream brand due to shock factor.

chaozbandit > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:42

It's not just that the top brass dont want homologation specials, its the lack of factory support in general for the top tier open class cars. Ever since Subaru pulled out, other manufacturers started to follow (mostly, if not completely). Yes, there is still strong aftermarket support for the most popular platforms (mainly evo and sti) but most of the factory effort has been limited to supplying the chassis and some R&D. Most of the work now falls on third party race teams; although Subaru is not in WRC, they still give Vermont Sports Car the majority of their RA-GRC programs; M-Sport runs most of the Ford team; Prodrive toyed around with Mini for a while.

The only full factory teams therefore are VW (who have way too many entities in the VAG profile to take care of, let alone worry about providing the masses anything beyond a Polo R), Citroen (arguably less potent after Loeb left, and having not much presence outside of the EU), and Hyundai (who, although debuting with some reliability issues, took a step in the right direction by jumping back into rally when everyone else pulled out). Unlike more mainstream motorsports like TUSCC, DTM, WEC where tech is transferred both up and down the chain and there is a strong manufacturer participation (Mercedes AMG and Audi Sport both supply FIA spec cars and team support, Porsche basically owns their top team, Manthey Racing), rallying in contrast just doesn't have that much to offer (their broadcasting is still worlds behind the other disciplines).

So short of homologation cars, the next best alternative would be to acquire the same base platform and pour your own money into parts from said affiliated third party race shops, who have put R&D into the competition cars that we all fantasize over. Of course, you can always make a push with the respective manufacturer forums to act as a think tank and help speed up the process (looking at you, NASIOC).

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > chaozbandit
08/08/2014 at 20:47

Toyota is coming back to WRC. If it had better media coverage in larger markets, like USA and China, more teams might get back into it.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:52

I would buy a stripped Fiesta with 4WD, a massively overpowered engine, and an amazing sequential box.

and perhaps some of the rest of us would.

But I do agree, the market isn't there unfortunately.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Tim (Fractal Footwork)
08/08/2014 at 20:55

but, the market could be there, just look at the Juke R

chaozbandit > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 20:57

I just feel like in order for homologation specials to be a thing again, we need Audi and Porsche to come back to play for a while, ergo VAG needs to write its motorsport divisions a bigger annual cheque. On a side note, the steaming via app is a good start but freemium isn't for everyone and similar to other media outlets, going straight to the internet seems to be the way to go (assuming you find a way to stay in the black)

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > chaozbandit
08/08/2014 at 20:59

I would be willing to put up with a small amount off ads to get a good stream.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 21:02

Found it!

Dusty Ventures > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 22:09

It's a budget/government/market/fanbase thing. To bring an 80's/90's style homologation special to market in today's environment would be millions in safety/government regulations development and testing alone. A homologation special Fiesta would be north of $40k and they'd still be losing money on the car. And the Group B/Group A cars existed in a day when race car drivers were heroes and everyone (well, everyone in Europe) followed the WRC. Now motorsports lives in a world of debate and protest, and rallies the world over are under constant threat of losing stages or being shut down completely due to their "destructive effect on the environment and danger to civilians/spectators." (This is why STPR lost it's night stages and water crossings, why Colorado lost it's events, etc).

TL;DR: The WRC doesn't do homologation like in the days of old because they know every single manufacturer would leave immediately.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Dusty Ventures
08/08/2014 at 22:19

Which sucks, especially with Ford making record profits. Environmentalists can eat a dick, I want a balls out crazy capable fiesta rs.

Dusty Ventures > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 22:27

Not just the environmentalists, also the governments with their higher regulatory standards.

Here's an example of what testing and regulations are like these days. I have a friend who developed a waste vegetable oil fuel system. He's allowed to get away with selling a certain number of kits/conversions per year, but to go larger he'd have to get the fuel system tested and approved by the government. To have it tested would cost him $750k. For each model year and vehicle model he wants the system approved for. All that, just to get used cooking oil officially approved for mass market.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Dusty Ventures
08/08/2014 at 22:40

Kinja'd!!!

Dusty Ventures > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 22:43

...I'm not sure how to interpret that

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Dusty Ventures
08/08/2014 at 22:45

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ on a cracker.

Dusty Ventures > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 22:50

Ah, there we go. Yeah, it's pretty insane. Also keep in mind that to sell it as a production car they'd have to figure out how to fit the car with traction control, air bags (including side curtain), child safety seat latches, tire pressure monitoring systems, etc etc etc.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Dusty Ventures
08/08/2014 at 22:56

keep the interior of the stock car. TPS systems are easy. Modify the tc system from the Taurus SHO. Emissions will be the biggest issue, but even that shouldn't be too hard if they use a motor that's already passed.

Dusty Ventures > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/08/2014 at 23:15

Can't keep the interior of standard Fiesta. Driveline to the rear and rear dif/axles will mean tweaking floor pan, which will in turn adjust design of center console/carpets/seats/possibly gas tank and spare tire/trunk design. Thanks to redesigned seat and trunk some of the original side interior trim may not fit and location of side curtain bags for the rear passenger may have to be adjusted. Difs and brakes in the rally cars are purely mechanical, not electrical, so the SHO TC won't be compatible without a major redesign somewhere. As for emissions, the motor has passed but not with the internals and turbo of the rally car. The only common ground between the rally engine and the street engine is the block. Hell, my engine in the Ranger has factory block and heads, but it's now a fire-spitting (literally), 350+ horse madhouse that runs on pure race gas and under casual conditions has an mpg of around 10.

Conan > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/09/2014 at 00:24

Honestly I think I feel the same way about the Dakar and NASCAR too.

Fred (FreddsterExprs) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/09/2014 at 10:16

They wouldn't be able to save much money if they were to build close-to-WRC Fiestas. There's a very limited market for such a car, and it's just too small to justify a full street WRC car. I think something like the Polo R WRC should be mandatory though, at least it's somewhat similar.

And speaking of Fiestas and Ford, Ford isn't paying M-Sport anymore, and therefore hasn't a full works team presence in WRC anymore. All of that despite record profits. What a bunch of dickbags.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Dusty Ventures
08/09/2014 at 11:51

Oh well, I'm just going to dunk my head in the toilet

Dusty Ventures > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/09/2014 at 15:48

Now you're sounding like a true automotive engineer ;)