What If Your Recently-Bought Used Car Explodes?

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/12/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

You just bought a used car and the engine blew up on the drive home from the dealership. What can you do? The answer depends primarily on one question: Did you buy it "as-is"? Judging by the phone calls I get at my office where I deal with automobile warranty law !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! the answer is usually, "Yes." Followed by, "What does 'as-is' mean?" If you're asking the question now – while the car with the blown engine drips its last ounce of oil in your driveway – it is too late. So, follow along as I explain what all of this means so you can protect yourself in the future.

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The notion of what a "warranty" is, in general, would take far too much space to explain here so we'll jump ahead to the one which is important in this context: the Implied Warranty of Merchantability. Most states have adopted the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! where all of this is laid out. It says that if you buy goods from a merchant who deals with goods of that kind, you can expect that they will perform as one might expect without the merchant having to actually say it for it to be enforceable. (It says the goods will be !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) A refrigerator you buy from an appliance store will keep your food cold. A lawn mower from the Toro dealer will cut your grass. The car battery from the auto parts store will provide and store electricity for your car. You can expect these things to happen even if the salesperson was silent on what the products will do. It is implied by operation of law.

So, we start from the point that an automobile will provide safe and reliable transportation if you are buying it from a merchant who sells goods of the kind (a car dealer).

Note that this does not apply to a private sale. A private seller is not a merchant so the implied warranty never comes into existence. This protects you if you are a private seller but it means you must be more careful when buying from a private seller.

But, there is a loophole that swallows the rule: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , so long as they do it conspicuously. Once they do that, it is no longer implied and does not exist. And, in the states where it is allowed, most used car dealers disclaim the Implied Warranty of Merchantability. A while back, there was so much confusion in this area, the Federal Trade Commission came up with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . It is a single sheet of paper which specifies "WARRANTIES FOR THIS VEHICLE." It give two options: AS-IS NO WARRANTY and WARRANTY. There are boxes in front of those two choices and the dealer is told to check one. Federal law requires the sticker to be visible to a car shopper who is looking at the vehicle. Hence, it is often in one of the windows.

A great majority of used cars sold in America are sold with the "As-Is" box checked. (There are several states that do not allow the disclaimer and for them, there is a modified Buyers Guide.)

And "as-is" means with all faults. Repairs are the responsibility of the buyer. There are no guarantees. That car is yours. It could explode as you drive it off the lot. The smoldering remains are still yours. It even says so: "YOU WILL PAY ALL COSTS FOR ANY REPAIRS. I do wish the Feds would cool it with that cap-lock though.

As I noted above, some states do not allow the implied warranty of merchantability to be disclaimed. I have seen conflicting lists of which states those are but here is the easy way to figure this out. Those states use Buyers Guides that look like this:

If you bought your car in a state with the "Implied Warranties Only" box and it was checked, consult with a local attorney.

For everyone else, we will assume the "As Is - No Warranty" box is checked. And, as an attorney, I must point out that there are some possible lifelines here. For example, the "as-is" disclaimer does not disclaim everything – it just disclaims the implied warranty of merchantability. So, when a consumer contacts me and says they bought an as-is car with a rolled back odometer, guess what? An odometer rollback is a separate problem. Besides being a felony for the person who rolled the clock back, it creates a separate cause of action which cannot be disclaimed. And don't get me wrong; I have opposed attorneys who came into court and tried to tell judges that their clients "disclaimed" that too. One attorney yelled, "We disclaimed everything!" His argument didn't fly.

As a car shopper, here is what you need to do. When looking at a car being sold 'as-is," you have to do one of two things. Have it inspected by someone who knows cars. If you are a mechanic, you can inspect it yourself. If you are not a mechanic, pay one to check the car out for you. It won't cost much but the peace of mind will be worth it. If you cannot afford a mechanic or do not feel the cost is justified (even though it is), then price the car as if you expect a catastrophic breakdown immediately. That way, when the transmission scatters on the drive home you will already have budgeted for it. If the car stays intact and gives you years of trouble-free service then you will have gotten a good deal.

And of course, if your recently-purchased car came with a warranty (the other box was checked) take it back to the selling dealer and seek repairs under warranty if appropriate.

To sum up: If you buy a used car from a dealer "as-is," you bear the risk that the car could go kablooey the second you take delivery of it and there most likely will be nothing you can do about it. If you are car shopping, be aware of this and have the car inspected before you buy. If not inspected, then negotiate a price appropriate for a car which might not outlive the drive home. (And no, there is no "law" that says you have to get it "off the lot" before it "becomes" yours. We've !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that . . .)

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Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! both published by Chicago Review Press. Follow him on Twitter : !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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DISCUSSION (100)

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 13:14

When buying a used car I insist that they let me have an independent tech take a look and verify what is and isn't good. If they refuse then I can safely assume it's a shit pile and I walk away.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 13:17

What about states which have an exemption for odometer disclosure based on age? In GA, if a car is over 10 years since first registration, then the odometer reading can be entered on the title as EXEMPT.

This is optional, though. If you supply exempt, you are simply claiming that the vehicle is not covered under odometer disclosure. However, if you give the reading, it must be accurate.

So in that case, would there even be cause for a civil action if the title reads exempt odometer disclosure? Or would other evidence be likely needed?

(I know you are in MI, and may not know all the particulars of GA law. This is just intended as a general question.)

Schep9d > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 13:17

You need your own section Steve! Another good article.

SteveLehto > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
08/12/2014 at 13:20

Great question. Under MI law you can also do exempt and/or if the vehicle is over 10 years old, just say that and nothing else. BUT, it is still a crime to roll the odometer! In other words, in MICH, you cannot roll the odo and them claim it is exempt to protect yourself.

SteveLehto > Schep9d
08/12/2014 at 13:21

Thanks. I'll keep writing them so long as people keep reading them!

SteveLehto > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts.
08/12/2014 at 13:22

One of my favorite points: You can figure out a lot sometimes by simply asking something like that. I've seen litigants OFFER to take a polygraph. Guess what? Polygraphs cost money. So, someone looks at that and says, "I guess they're telling the truth."

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 13:39

Just to clarify: the 10 year exemption is found at 49 CFR §580.17 (a)(3).

Clearly one cannot roll an odometer back, even if exempt (49 USC §32709), but it just seems that it would require a bit more digging to find the history of the vehicle to prove a rollback on an exempt vehicle (if it could even be proven).

So I suppose it really points at "Do your due diligence when purchasing something". Or what's that Latin phrase?

Caveat Emptor

SteveLehto > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
08/12/2014 at 13:45

And the trivia question: What's the opposite? (Caveat Venditor - Let the seller beware).

Yes, and most states have adopted statutes which mirror those Federal rules. That's one fun thing, at least in Michigan. There is a state law on odo tampering which is quite good. Treble damages, attorney's fees, costs etc. Been a while since I even looked at the Fed since our state one works so well.

DConsorti > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 17:11

Another great article Steve!

Now, for the mandatory comparison beetween US/BR

Over here, our law is much, much more protective than yours.

In our consumer code, there are defitions of what is a consumer and what is a supplier:

What matter to us: "Supplier is any individual or legal entity, public or private, national or foreign, as well as depersonalized entities that develop production, assembly, creation, construction, processing, import, export, distribution or marketing activity of products or services."

With that in mind, over here, when you buy a car from a person that do not earn it's life from selling cars, the "as-is" clause is implicit. In other words, do your due dilligence. But, even with this in mind, is possible to go to court and see your money back!

But, when we're talking about a supplier transaction, the "as-is" clause DO NOT EXIST!

Any clause of the purchase contract that in any way diminish or make the warranty void (unless is proven that the buyer caused the problem) is NULL!

By the law, any car purchase have a MANDATORY warranty of 90 days. But there's many catches. For instance, there are the possibility of the warranty only be valid for engine/transmission (the rule over here), even if the 90 day is over, you can still try to prove that the defect is pre existing, and make the suppliers pay the repair.

I remember a case that I saw, where a friend of mine bought a car from a rental car store, and 4 months later, the clutch disc was so worn that the car was unusable. The odometer shows only 45k KM.

He sued the store, claiming the clutch were suposed to be replaced every 70-100k KM, according to some mechanics he consulted.

Long story short, the store had to pay for the repair, and a R$3K compensation for moral damages.

SteveLehto > DConsorti
08/12/2014 at 17:21

Thanks for the information. I love hearing about how the laws are in other countries.

Conan > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 19:20

Glad you wrote this.

MosquitoXR13 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 19:23

Some one in my apt complex bought an AMG S65. It's been sitting like this for 3 months now. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/73…

Wave Motion Gun > MosquitoXR13
08/12/2014 at 19:31

I was honestly concerned that this would be a poopdick pic.

Don't worry, he will gather enough cash to slam the rear soon enough.

SirRaoulDuke > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 19:33

Another informative article. Thanks!

SteveLehto > SirRaoulDuke
08/12/2014 at 19:42

thanks!

J. Drew Silvers > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 19:52

You said everything my attorney said to me when I was sued by the buyer of my as-is car. As well as the same thing the buyer was told by more than one attorney who wouldn't represent him. Great info and maybe you'll prevent someone from doing to someone else what that guy did to me.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/how-an-explore…

SteveLehto > J. Drew Silvers
08/12/2014 at 19:54

Yes. And I read your story a few days ago. What a waste of time and resources that frivolous lawsuit was. At least you won!

jdb > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 19:54

Well if you have good credit and had a loan, just say fuck em and let them repo it, take the slight hit to your credit.

SteveLehto > jdb
08/12/2014 at 19:56

And they sue you for the balance and debt collectors chase you. Voluntary repos are usually not a good way to go.

lonestranger > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 19:56

Did you buy it "as-is"? Judging by the phone calls I get at my office where I deal with automobile warranty law ("Lemon Law") the answer is usually, "Yes." Followed by, " What does 'as-is' mean? "

/facepalm

While I think it's great that you've been sharing your informative, interesting legal knowledge with us, I think it's ridiculous that there is a need for this particular article.

The fact that there's enough morons that can't figure it out that the feds had to make a window sticker? Ridiculous.

Strange Noises Alou > DConsorti
08/12/2014 at 19:58

how would an "AS IS" private party sale be nullified in court if the car explodes? what does the law provide for the buyer in Brazil?

SteveLehto > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 19:59

You know, I would have thought so but it turns out most people don't know what As Is means and - I agree this is a problem - don't read all the papers they see at the dealer. That's why I'm hoping more people read posts like this - so they know going in.

RichardNixon72 > jdb
08/12/2014 at 20:01

A reposession and subsequent charge-off never results in a "slight hit." Sorry, but you're speaking like someone who has zero information about how credit functions.

lonestranger > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:11

I agree, and I hope you continue to write these.

Still, it's not as if "as is" is some obscure legal term in latin. Perhaps we also need articles from an elementary school teacher.

RichardNixon72 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:11

Thank you for explaining that AS-IS does indeed mean AS-IS if that's what the buyer's guide allows you to state. As a used car dealer in Florida, residents from other states always seem to think there's a cooling off period or 3-day right of recension or that the lemon law applies to used cars. It doesn't, pure and simple.

Since you mentioned odometers, I recently had a case where we purchased a 2005 Element through an auction from a new car dealer that had its odometer rolled back by its original owner. We didn't know this until the customer who bought it from us found out from a Honda dealer he had it serviced at noticed more wear and tear on certain internal parts than a 60k-mile car should've had; turns out the car had more like 160k miles. The auction - believe it or not - tried to hide behind the fact that "10 year-old cars and older are exempt, and this one is pretty close to 10" and we were outside NAAA arbitration time periods. We actually had to get state DMV involved to nudge them into buying the vehicle back from us (we had bought it back from the customer we sold it to after finding out).

Also a note - in Florida, at least - if you fix an AS-IS car as good will towards a customer, it CAN open you up to having an implied warranty on that vehicle, which is why some dealers are very hard and fast about AS-IS meaning AS-IS. Yes, Virginia, some buyers are scumbags, too.

I tend to err on the side of goodwill myself and - as long as the customer is rational and reasonable - fix a lot of things after the fact on certain cars we sell AS-IS, but I always make them sign a repair order stating this was done on a one-time basis and does not constitute a warranty.

SteveLehto > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 20:14

I'm just one guy and I'm typing as fast as I can!

Atl_boiler > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:17

so here is another interesting thing I came across in Georgia while buying my wife's gmc Acadia. It was certified pre owned by gmc but the box was checked as is. I checked and double checked the cpo paperwork which was in writing. The sales person explained that reason for the as is was because the individual dealership was not warranting the vehicle but rather the manufacturer through the cpo program...

End of the day I had the exact details of the warranty in writing it was just a strange arrangement.

SteveLehto > RichardNixon72
08/12/2014 at 20:18

You raise several interesting points. I think the primary confusion comes from the fact that most people only go car shopping every few years so they are not as familiar with these documents as they ought to be. I admit the Buyer's Guide is pretty IN YOUR FACE but there is usually a bit of paperwork flying about. As I tell my clients though, that's no excuse to ignore it.

The goodwill repair coming back to bite you is true in many states. In Mich (and I suspect elsewhere) a buyer can CLAIM that the post-purchase repairs are evidence that there was no adequate disclaimer (a hard argument to make in the face of the Buyer's Guide). You are correct that if you want to make the goodwill repair, do something which documents it (which you do). I have also seen dealers ask the buyers to sign the Buyer's Guide. That makes it a little harder to claim it wasn't shown to the buyer at the time of the sale.

Bongo > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:21

Another thing you can do with used car deals is negotiate a three-month drivetrain warranty into the deal. It costs the dealer very little, and they are usually willing to do it as a throw-in right at the end.

This gives you a chance to shake the car down and put it through it's paces. You know — in case somebody over-revved it at a track day and dumped it before she blew.

SteveLehto > Atl_boiler
08/12/2014 at 20:22

This confuses a LOT of people. The Implied Warranty of Merchantability (if it exists) is between the BUYER and the SELLER. The warranty most people think of when they buy a new car is between the BUYER and the MANUFACTURER (even if it is administered by the SELLER). Most CPO cars that come with warranties come with a warranty from the MANUFACTURER. So, in theory, the SELLER could still disclaim in some states. It would have made more sense if the BUYER'S GUIDE had a space on it for other warranties (such as those) but you can only expect the Feds to do so much.

SteveLehto > Bongo
08/12/2014 at 20:23

You can always ask. That's the kind of thing which would make you wonder - if they WON'T do that for you wouldn't that raise some flags? I suppose it boils down to what the dealer's cost would be for such a warranty.

RichardNixon72 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:28

Absolutely. In Florida, you are REQUIRED to have the customer sign the Federal Buyer's Guide. Florida also requires an air pollution certification document to be signed even though we haven't smogged cars in over a decade - figure that one out.

Also, not posting one clearly and conspicuously in a car can result in a $2500 fine per occurance. Add that up on a big franchise lot. I always have customers sign a Federal Buyer's Guide and one of our own from our dealer management system. Even on cars sold with a balance of factory warranty, I have an as-is signed stating the car is NOT warrantied by US.

Dusdaddy > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:29

Great article.

I remember years ago when I lived in San Diego, there was a mechanic shop that did nothing but pre-purchase inspections on used cars. He would come to you or if possible, you could bring it to him where he could do a thorough check. Being an uninterested third party, his shop did zero repairs for money, you received an honest assessment of the vehicle. Kinda like a home inspector. I guess it never caught on because I've never see one since. Or maybe everybody just thinks they are "good enough" to tell good from bad.

Bongo > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:29

A 90 day warranty on most cars only costs a couple hundred dollars. And they're usually game for it because if anything does fail on the car, not only do they as a dealer get to enjoy the good will of having "taken care of the customer", but they get to charge the warranty company $95/hr for the repairs.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:30

my first car that I bought off of craigslist today hasn't died, yet.

Pearson Hurst > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:31

Wow, small world Steve. I remember you from DFX Only :)

SteveLehto > Dusdaddy
08/12/2014 at 20:31

Most people don't understand how important this is. At least that's what I think.

SteveLehto > Pearson Hurst
08/12/2014 at 20:33

that's me. Check out the Facebook page I have for it. (Dfxonly).

ME 4-12 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:41

"That way, when the transmission scatters on the drive home you will already have budgeted for it. "

My wife and I bought an AS-IS used car around 3 years ago and this happened to us on the way home. The car only had 100k on it and the dealer was the 2nd largest dealer in the greater St Louis area so we thought since we were going through a really large reputable dealer that they wouldn't hide anything. On the way home the transmission starts missing shifts. We bought it on a Saturday and couldn't go back till Monday. We take it back and our sales person basically gives me a big F-U, deal with it and won't go get a manager for me. I immediately go home and write a letter to not only the manager of the store, but the owner of all the dealerships. They still didn't do 100% right in my mind, but they gave us a rebuilt transmission at cost and payed all labor. We were only getting a newer car because my wifes car's transmission had kicked the bucket and I had specifically told the sales person this. The rebuilt transmission ended up costing us an additional $750 on top of the car cost. Rebuilding her old cars transmission would have just cost us $900 and she liked that car more. We definitely learned our lesson to either always demand at least a week or so warranty to make sure nothing is being hidden, or to plan on paying for repairs.

ME 4-12 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:41

"That way, when the transmission scatters on the drive home you will already have budgeted for it. "

shop-teacher > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:42

If you bought from a reputable dealer, they MIGHT be willing to repair the vehicle for you. It can't hurt to ask, just make sure you ask nicely. Maybe you'll get lucky.

My sister and her husband bought a low mileage '04 Escalade this summer, and the check engine light went on the next day. Her husband called the dealer and told them the light was on and, "I think the guy who traded this in may have cleared the codes before he brought it to you." They told him to bring it right in, and the dealership owner was waiting for him when he arrived.

The owner asked, "What makes you think we didn't clear the codes?"

"You guys have been here forever, and you've got a reputation to uphold. You're not going to clear the codes to make a couple grand on a used car."

"That was the right answer."

I don't remember what all was wrong, but they did a couple grand worth of work for free, that they were under no legal obligation to do. And this was on a $14k used car, sold to a young couple who won't have the cash to buy a new car from them for a very long time.

SteveLehto > ME 4-12
08/12/2014 at 20:44

And that's a good lesson. Even if you bought it As Is, you can always go back and ASK them to help you out. They may not have to legally but they MIGHT help you as a matter of goodwill.

SteveLehto > shop-teacher
08/12/2014 at 20:46

I was just discussing this with someone else. By all means. You can always ask even if they are not legally obligated to you.

MosquitoXR13 > Wave Motion Gun
08/12/2014 at 20:49

Hahaha, sorry. I just haven't figured out how to post pictures in comments properly yet, lol.

jdb > RichardNixon72
08/12/2014 at 20:49

you're right, it'd probably be a 100 point drop or more, but my credit score is over 800, so i have a pretty good idea how it works and how to build a good credit profile. I also know it wouldn't hurt me that bad, because i wouldn't need to use my credit for years, possibly long enough for it to fall off, for any major purchase, and i'd close on another loan at a favorable rate on another vehicle before i stopped paying(i realize not everyone would have the means to get approved on another loan). I also understand i'm going to make it hard on them, and give them every opportunity to screw up possible. Granted you have to weigh this vs. the repair cost, but if the engine exploded i'm assuming there is catastrophic damage, depends on one's definition of "explode."

Dusdaddy > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:52

Yeah that seems more like the truth.

Steve, next you'll have to discuss Titles. I bought a truck in MI with an accident on the carfax, minor front end repair found by my mechanic backed it up. No ownership change. Go to trade it in 4 years later and the carfax now says it was totaled in MI when the accident happened. Even though my title from my state was clear the dealer didn't want to give me anything for it. Thought I was doing everything right but I missed something somewhere. I thought every state had a law that says the title must be "salvage" if it was ever totaled by the insurance company and ownership changed on the title to the insurance company?

ME 4-12 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 20:53

Or as in my case, I just informed them that I was going to write reviews of my experience on multiple car review sites. While they legally had a right to refuse to do anything about it, no dealership wants a story like that getting out. Specially if they are an extremely large dealership that has a big name in the area. Since then I have told multiple people about my experience and I refuse to shop at the dealership, but I have only disclosed what dealership it was with a select few friends since they did at least do something for me.

SteveLehto > Dusdaddy
08/12/2014 at 20:57

This is an area where the law varies wildly from state to state. Some states make it easy to "wash" a title. I encounter this (in Mich) where a car is wrecked in one state and retitked in Michigan. It's a booming, but scummy, business.

SteveLehto > ME 4-12
08/12/2014 at 20:59

Some dealers care, some do not. Obviously the key is to find the ones that do. My attorney friends and I joke about the ones that don't. We know who they are and are amazed by the things they do to customers.

VashVashVashVash > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:00

I recently bought a very new (less than 3k miles) used car from a far away dealer. Manufacturers warranty still applies, and I bought and extended manufacturers warranty as well. There was still the form with the "AS IS" box checked, which was explained to me that the warranty is on the part of the manufacturer, not the dealer. Did I just get ripped off?

Maxaxle > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:01

Kinja'd!!!

The phrase "all costs" just got a lot more morbid.

SteveLehto > VashVashVashVash
08/12/2014 at 21:04

That is the case in most states. As is means no implied warranty from the seller. You should be fine.

Dusdaddy > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:07

Don't I know it. Didn't State Farm get hammered for this years ago in Iowa?

SteveLehto > Dusdaddy
08/12/2014 at 21:11

Not sure about that. But once every couple months I hear from someone who bought a car with a clean MICH title that was salvage in another state. People also think Carfax catches everything. Not true. They miss all kinds of stuff . . .another story for another day.

gkwilly > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:12

This seems to fall under the 'oh, duh!' category. I've bought plenty of cars with no warranty (often private sellers) and priced them accordingly. If you buy 'as is' you know you are taking a risk.

If you are unwilling to take the risk, pony up and buy a warranty.

SteveLehto > gkwilly
08/12/2014 at 21:16

You'd think so but so few people understand this. I got THREE of these phone calls TODAY.

SRTPT > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:22

I can attest to that.. My old car was wrecked x3 two of them pretty decent front end accidents. 3 & 5 thousand dollars. Nothing on the Carfax. The guy who owns it now, bought it from me cause I had a two inch thick binder of paperwork on it. He knew exactly what he was buying.. When I buy used at least from a private party the more paperwork I see the better.. Dealerships, you really have to research the car you are looking for and know what leaks should and should not be there, where they rust out and other whatnot..

emjayay > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:45

I bought a used car in Connecticut ten years ago at a typical used car lot in Windsor, a smaller suburban type town. It was cheap and I didn't get anything checked. I had to pick it up in a couple of days because the guy said they were required to put new front brakes on it (probably just pads, maybe rear shoes, I don't remember). Anyway, I guess they were required to make it pass whatever safety checks Connecticut has. I assume a private sale wouldn't be responsible for that. Some states don't have safety checks for registration (NE states tend to), and each one has different smog check rules as well.

DConsorti > Strange Noises Alou
08/12/2014 at 21:45

It`s not easy, but, if the buyer proves that the seller never informed of a major defect in the vehicle, it can be nullified in court. Is what we call "vicio redibitorio".

The law over here prizes the "fair play" in the contracts. So if the object of the contract has a issue, the seller has the obligation to inform the buyer. (to be honest, I`m strugling to translate my thoughts to english...LOL) Imagine that the seller did not inform the buyer, and it is discovered after the purchase. The buyer has, by law, the right to make the contract null, if he proves that he would not do the purchase if he knew the existance of such vice BEFORE the purchase.

(kinda tricky, but I saw this happens a few times.)

Atomic > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:46

Wow! this article is EXACTLY FOR ME
I bought a car and the trans grenaded on the way home. It was weird as the car had only "40k miles on it. "The dealer was "nice" and split the bill with me.

Turns out the mileage was manipulated. Car might have 140k on it for all I know. What can I do about this?

emjayay > emjayay
08/12/2014 at 21:51

In general (just speculation) it makes sense that a new or used car dealer in a smaller market will be more honest and responsible than in a larger market, as their reputation is much more likely to be known to most customers. Have a couple of transmissions tank the next day and not do something and word will spread. In very populated Long Island near the huge NYC metro area there is a huge used car dealer that advertises much better deals than anyone, and according to multiple Yelp comments they routinely bait and switch everyone and never have what they advertise etc. They never run the usual photos and info in listings either. Completely bogus and really huge.

SteveLehto > Atomic
08/12/2014 at 21:52

You bought it as is? What state are you in?

Annie D. Davidson > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 21:58

Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to tech tab for work detail

> www.jobs700.com

jalop1991 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 22:05

Did you really just waste an hour explaining to morons that water is wet?

SteveLehto > jalop1991
08/12/2014 at 22:13

I can see why you ask, but if you saw how much confusion there is on this . . .either way, if this article helps one person understand the transaction a little better, I'll have done my job.

listlast > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 22:45

I'm always amazed when people lament how stupid people are because they don't know some seemingly obvious information.

Here's the deal, not everyone knows everything at the same time. Learning is a continuous process that has to be repeated incessantly to reach people who may not have had similar opportunities in life.

Impatience in such matters is a hallmark of elitism.

1111111111111111111111 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 22:51

my 2000 passat engine blew up 50 miles out from the dealer. 7000 bucks later it was working again. I could have got it fully reimbursed, but they didn't issue a recall till I'd scrapped the car because the train died. Fuck VW, and Sheppard motors.

SteveLehto > 1111111111111111111111
08/12/2014 at 22:53

Wow. How much did the car cost? I always tell people that cars do sometimes blow up right after purchase and people think I'm being dramatic.

1111111111111111111111 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 23:03

bought it for 10k, then immediately put 7 into it. Sucked real bad.

1111111111111111111111 > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 23:05

It was a 2000 passat 1.8. All maintenence records intact and 60k miles.

Donna J. Shirey > SteveLehto
08/12/2014 at 23:31

> www.jobs700.com

HemiJKU > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 00:30

When I have to print an "AS-IS" sheet like the one you listed above (in Michigan) it automatically prints up 2 pages, the second of which includes most common problems with any used car and a place for the customer to sign that they understand the risk. I know we have a 3rd party program to print this but I assumed it was taken from the State website. Any idea if that's required or not?

Side note: Here in Michigan we have to have each customer sign an Odometer Disclosure to verify the mileage.

Apoc > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 00:45

What about when a dealer says that "as is" means there is no expressed warranty between you and the dealership, but that one remains between you and the manufacturer? Bought a used saleen mustang once from a Ford dealer and they said that. Then the engine blew and guess what . . . power train warranty was never transferred and thus void. In the end they wrote me a check for $5000 with no lawyers involved on my side, but any advice to people if the dealer states what mine said?

2007mcs > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 00:53

your articles are very interestings, thanks

Tohru > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 00:59

As a private seller, I always write up a bill of sale. Since it's not like it's notarized or anything, I doubt it's worth anything in a court of law though. This is the most recent revision - I had to add clauses about registering the vehicle after I sold my '76 Delta 88 and got a call from a towing company in Milwaukee 5 months later that it had been impounded with plates from a Kia on it and me being the last registered owner.

Image link, since images are disabled: https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/451x642q90/…

dekone > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 01:26

Why would anyone buy virtually anything of significant value that they could not verify durability of themselves if it was "as-is"? The only reason these situations exist is because consumers knowingly make dumb choices. If consumers refused to buy under these circumstances they wouldn't exist. No one would buy a new car "as-is' so what leads people to buy used cars "as-is" unless discounted to but a fraction of market value?? I can tell you I certainly wouldn't.

Atomic > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 01:55

I am in Chicago but the car was purchased in Missouri

Kevin Rhodes > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 02:03

Worse than not catching stuff, is when they catch stuff AFTER a sale has been made. IMHO they should be on the hook for that - if they update a report after one has been used in the purchase of a car, they should be the ones who pay any loss of value. And I have had TWO salvage title cars with clean Carfaxes.

Here is an added state wrinkle for you. In Maine, a car dealer cannot sell a car that is not safety inspected, and there is a mandatory 60-day warranty of inspectability to keep them from just throwing a sticker on any heap. So any inspection items must be fixed by them. Doesn't help you if the engine blows up, but might just get you a new set of brakes or a catalytic converter. No emissions testing here, but the CEL IS an inspection item! It can't be lit. Also, Maine requires that a dealer provide you the contact details of the previous owner if you ask. Doesn't help when the car came from an auction though.

rlk44689@toiea.com > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 02:26

———————————> http://www.jobs700.com

Harold F. Ray > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 05:53

> www.jobs700.com

Sean > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 06:32

good thing in Australia that there's a compulsory, no way to opt out, federally mandated and enforceable, 3 month/1500km warranty that all dealers have to provide.

On one car I bought (a 1979 Nissan Stanza) I got an entire engine swapped out when it started to smoke oil only a week and a half before this dealer warranty ran out. I did over 100 000 km on the replaced engine over the next 9 years... Eventually the body rusted out in the panels so I got rid of it, but the motor was going fine!

For private sales it's always "caveat emptor" - but we do have the basic and generic consumer laws to protect you in that event.

SteveLehto > Kevin Rhodes
08/13/2014 at 06:54

Interesting. I could do a whole thing on Carfaxes but I hate to pick on a single company like that. I love hearing the stories from other states. Michigan has no inspections. We used to have smog checks for the counties surrounding Detroit but got rid of them quite a while ago.

SteveLehto > Atomic
08/13/2014 at 06:56

I'd check with a local attorney about the mileage issue. Rollbacks can be tricky but if you can prove them, then they are worth pursuing. You never know: That might be why they helped you with the trans.

SteveLehto > dekone
08/13/2014 at 06:58

I hate to say it but if the Big Three started selling vehicles with no warranties and the dealers sold them as-is, a good number of people would still buy them. Either because 1) "It's new. What could go wrong with it?" or 2) "What does as-is mean?"

SteveLehto > Tohru
08/13/2014 at 07:00

The Bill of Sale is always helpful, especially if you can get the buyer to sign it. Having dealt with people in arguments for over 20 years I can tell you that people will lie about and deny the simplest things if they can. "I never bought that Delta 88. He LENT it to me." Who knows? The BOS would go a long way.

And the "not re-titling" thing? Happens all the time too. Take them to the DMV if you can.

SteveLehto > 2007mcs
08/13/2014 at 07:01

Thanks! Be sure to read them all!

SteveLehto > Apoc
08/13/2014 at 07:03

Several other people have raised this in this thread. What the dealer SAID was more or less correct. The As-Is addresses the situation between you and them. As for you and the manufacturer, that's a different warranty and dealers can (in some states) disclaim the Implied Warr. of Merch. while still selling a car that has a mfr's warranty on it. As for them not transferring it, that was just stupid but at least you got taken care of.

SteveLehto > HemiJKU
08/13/2014 at 07:10

The link I put above for the Buyer's Guide links right to the PDF of the ones provided by the FTC (both versions). The second page you describe is the reverse (the "back" in non-lawyer speak). The FTC does not have a signature line but does have a couple of blank lines which could be conveniently used for that purpose.

You have a BUYER sign a disclosure for a car they are BUYING? What purpose would that serve? (If so, it would better be titled an Acknowledgement or something.)

Ying T. Love > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 07:34

> www.jobs700.com

Xedicon > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 07:53

Another great article Steve! I gave it a star for use of the word "kablooey"!

SteveLehto > Xedicon
08/13/2014 at 07:57

Thank you! Words are like tools: You have to use the right one for the right job.

Xedicon > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 08:03

There isn't by chance maybe somehow that you might somewhere let that list just happen to fall all over your keyboard is there? I know you likely can't disclose that sort of information but I'll be buggered if it isn't sometimes very difficult to find good solid intel on a dealer.

SteveLehto > Xedicon
08/13/2014 at 08:35

My stuff is state specific to Michigan. Here, there are dealers whose names I won't even say out loud for fear it will conjure Beelzebub into my presence.

timgray > Dusdaddy
08/13/2014 at 09:12

CarFax is not accurate. That is the problem. I am betting that the vehicle's carfax report had an error and carfax does not give a rats about it and will not fix it.

It's why I really dont trust carfax, I have seen cars that were totaled and had a clean carfax.

Tohru > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 09:57

I had a signed BOS for the Delta, but wasn't able to find it when the company called. I told the company that I had sold it and signed over the title, and that as far as I knew under Wis. state law I didn't have any legal right to get the car out of their impound. They basically said "Okay" and that was the last I heard of it. I'm probably quite lucky that it ended up in private impound instead of city impound - Milwaukee wouldn't have given up so easily I think.

Xedicon > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 09:58

I live in Michigan... *wink wink nudge nudge* - I hear ya though, no worries!

SteveLehto > Xedicon
08/13/2014 at 10:01

Email me directly at Lehto@kennon.com and we can discuss this all day long.

1BADSTI > Kevin Rhodes
08/13/2014 at 10:24

You are aware that carfax has a buyback program for if you find that the car has been salvage/totalled/other title brands after purchase?

GreenN_Gold > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 11:08

The "conspicuous" part of that law might explain why management was adamant that all of our used cars had the as-is sticker displayed at all times (which is a good thing IMO). Even if you took it off for a test drive (for visibility) it had to go right back up before the car went back on the lot. There was barely much more on our used car stickers than the as-is part, in fact.

JimmyZZZZZZZ > SteveLehto
08/13/2014 at 11:23

Buying "as-is" does require budgeting for system failure. Did that years ago, when my VW van got totaled (not bad damage, but "too expensive", back then, for insurance to pay for). Found another one nearby, listed as "not running", and priced accordingly. Bought it, got it running, only to have the engine blow half way home (no oil). Putting the two together got me back on the road for what insurance gave me, and no, I didn't even think about going back to the private seller.