When I Defended Hundreds of Woodward Dream Cruisers for Free

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
08/07/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

In honor of next week's !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , I would like to share what was one of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . For those of you unfamiliar, the WWDC is a car event in Michigan where the local communities along Woodward Avenue pretend that they didn't hate it when kids like us spent our evenings racing on Woodward and hanging out in the bank parking lot by the Dairy Queen for hours. On the third Saturday in August each year, countless classic, sport, muscle and other cars show up to tool up and down the Avenue. Estimates suggest that more than a million people show up and the party – which is focused on the Saturday – begins earlier and earlier each year. Cruisers now routinely show up on the Monday morning preceding and clog up the road and the nearby parking lots. If you like classic cars, you love it.

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In one of the earlier years of the Dream Cruise, I was listening to the local classic rock station and a guy called in to complain that he had gotten a ticket for spinning his tires. It was going to cost him. I called the station and told them I would represent him for free. His ticket was in a local court where I spent a lot of time and I figured it would be an easy process. And just for fun, I told the hosts I'd represent anyone who got a ticket at the Cruise for free. Give out my fax number on the air? Sure, why not?!

My secretary spent the next few days filing appearances for the 50 or 60 people who responded. The cases ranged from Pontiac at the north end down through Bloomfield, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale and Berkley. Since the Dream Cruise was policed by the local, county and state law enforcement, I found tickets written by the three agencies. Some were kinder than others. Some people were ticketed – for doing a burnout – with an "unsafe start," a pretty harmless ticket. There were a few careless drivings and speedings thrown into the mix.

I went to each court with a stack of files and stood in the lobby calling out names. Soon, I had a bunch of guys (interestingly, I never had a female defendant in all my years of doing this) standing around me looking a little sheepish. I gave them the lecture about what I would try to do for them – any form of reduction would be good since most of them would have had a hard time fighting the ticket they were given. I then walked into the prosecutor's office and said, "I have these files," and rattled off the names. The prosecutors were happy because we could bulk out a part of his day. Ten files in five minutes. In the various courts I attended I managed to get some kind of break for everyone and everybody was happy. J.J. and the Morning Crew were kind enough to have me on their show a few weeks later to talk about my experience.

The next year, someone called and asked if I'd be doing my "Free" legal service again for the Dream Cruise. It had gone so smoothly, I said Sure. A newspaper or two called to interview me. The local ABC affiliate had me on their evening news. They gave out my fax number too. The Cruise came and went and my fax machine went into !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The years I did this kind of blend together but I'm sure you'll understand. One year I represented 100 people. But the first year was the honeymoon.

The police did not like my little experiment. One police officer told me I was encouraging people to break the law. I guess he thought that there were people out there pulling hole shots, telling themselves, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! An assistant prosecutor told me that his boss had told him "No deals for that Dream Cruise guy." And, the cops – who had kind of turned a blind eye to some of the hijinks in earlier years – had stopped writing marshmallow tickets. Now if you spun your tires you were likely to draw a RECKLESS DRIVING ticket. In Michigan, that's six points, a $500 fine, possible jail time and a variety of other indignities.

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Mixed in with all the cases I handled that year were two reckless driving tickets issued under the purview of the prosecutor who was cutting me no deals. Both would go to trial in front of juries in Royal Oak. The judge called us all to the bench before the first trial and asked why we hadn't worked out a plea deal. I pointed to the prosecutor who told the judge of the "policy" regarding the Dream Cruise. He shook his head and told us to proceed.

I did my best to pack the jury with car guys. I asked if any of them owned classic cars. One hand went up: he and I talked about big block Camaros for a bit. That first trial ended in a NOT GUILTY. The second trial ended in a hung jury. At one point the court clerk had to go into the jury room and tell them to quiet down; court workers in nearby offices were being disturbed by all the yelling coming from the room. They told the judge they could not reach a verdict. Most prosecutors would have agreed to some kind of deal at that point but there was that "policy." So, we had a retrial. Sadly, we lost that one. My guy was found guilty of reckless driving. He was accused of spinning the tires and fishtailing onto Woodward from a side street. The occupants of his car testified the car did not fishtail and the lone cop – the only prosecution witness – said that it did. This, even though he placed the car at the wrong intersection and had written so many tickets that day he clearly could not remember which one was which.

I no longer do the Free Woodward Dream Cruise tickets. I had a blast doing them, talking to the car owners in the hall before court about what kind of car they had and whether they had cruised Woodward back in the day. Had they ever seen a 1969 Dodge Charger like this one, doing endless loops between 12 Mile and Maple?

It just got to the point where it was clear that my involvement wasn't helping the accused. The prosecutors were punishing my clients for having hired me. Now, if you go to the Cruise, don't break the law. And if you get ticketed, hire a good attorney. You may be able to get the ticket reduced but you never know.

Steve Lehto has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years in Michigan. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! both published by Chicago Review Press. Follow him on Twitter : !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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DISCUSSION (100)

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 13:07

You rock. Other people suck. Feel bad for those "offenders."

AM3R > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 13:07

This was an awesome story to read.

Kudos to you for doing it all for free, a lot of car guys owe you a beer!

yamahog > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 13:09

interestingly, I never had a female defendant in all my years of doing this

Why our car insurance is lower, Exh. A ;)

However, if you were still offering your services a year from now, I'd probably end up giving you a call when my dumb ass inevitably gets nailed doing silly things on Woodward in a 2015 Mustang. Nice article and too bad we can't have nice things any more.

Alfalfa > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 13:18

It was inevitable, however still sad, that you had to discontinue this practice due to an increasing influx of jerks. C'est la vie, I guess.

Milky > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 13:34

And now R.O. poise give you a ticket for just being on Woodward in the summer in a enthusiasts car. They seriously have gone power hungry this year.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 13:51

Sorry to see you have to cancel your services. It's silly of the prosecutor to instill that policy giving they could get a public defender for free anyhow for at least the reckless driving couldn't they?

Oh well, I took the Montego to Woodward the first year and I won't be back, you just can't drive despite it being a "cruise". No AC, no Power Brakes, and black vinyl interior make for a rather uncomfortable ride on Woodward in traffic. Oh and the Montego has had overheating issues ever since.

That being said I love Woodward and that the event still exists. The cops do get a little out of hand, I've heard they even give out lots of Jaywalking tickets in RO during the event.

StevenG > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:08

I am sure that cop had a point. For some folks this would encourage them.

StevenG > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
08/07/2014 at 14:09

I can't imagine anyone with the money to have a car at this event could get a public defender. Most states require you to be below the poverty level for that.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > StevenG
08/07/2014 at 14:11

Really?

The more you know I guess. I've never needed one (thankfully) so I wouldn't know.

And you can show up to this show in any car. I drove my Montego which only cost 2500 bucks at the event 2 months after I bought it, and I made it on TV!

Also, you get people that don't get out of your way on their as they putz through the middle of the cruise in their MiniVan

RunningMan > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:11

Those dang unintended consequences...

vinoth_abu > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:12

last pay check was $9500 working 12 hours a week online. My neighbour's sister has been averaging 15k for months now and she works about 20 hours a week. I can't believe how easy it was once I tried it out.

This is what I do,,,,,,,,,,

www.bayspay.com

infinityedge > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:12

The occupants of his car testified the car did not fishtail and the lone cop – the only prosecution witness – said that it did. This, even though he placed the car at the wrong intersection and had written so many tickets that day he clearly could not remember which one was which.

Why do people ever take a cop's word over any random non-cop? They constantly lie and think nothing of it. Unless they have hard evidence backing their assertion, I assume any cop's statement is full of shit. Even with evidence, the default assumption is that they probably falsified their evidence.

No juror should give a cop the benefit of the doubt. Every juror should assume everything a cop says is a self serving lie until proven otherwise by non-cops.

Chaparral2F > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:14

Would to God that there were more Steve Lehtos in the world. Having grown up during the Muscle Car era and having lived through decades of draconian actions by the police , I want to applaud him for his efforts to help out those in the car community. Nice cars are an easy mark for the cops. They love to make stops for a license plate bulb burned out or tint too dark, but little is done about the masses of people who flagrantly speed, never use turn signals, follow too close to the car in front, weave in and out of traffic and are distracted by cell phones, food and makeup. One huge difference between 2014 and 1969 is that there weren't as many cops and most were more tolerant of small infractions than today. Wish we had a time machine and could go back to Woodward Avenue in 1969.

All Motor Is Best Motor > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:16

Steve, you really are an interesting guy and a great writer. I just may have to pick up a few of your books.

SteveLehto > infinityedge
08/07/2014 at 14:17

In some cases it is a generational thing. Older jurors love cops. Younger jurors, not so much.

StevenG > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
08/07/2014 at 14:17

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-right…

In my state they use the federal poverty guidelines.

DetroitMuscle > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:17

Thanks,Steve.

I'm one of the Woodward regulars.Even while carefully obeying traffic laws,there is always that suspicion that the Royal Oak cops are going to come down like the Gestapo. I respect the law enforcement but see no reason for a few of them to having gone overboard by provoking and threatening kids and pensioners who unfortunately may have violated some loitering rule.I don't think there is any need to assume that the crowd will become out of control like a war zone,we're just regular citizens.

SteveLehto > All Motor Is Best Motor
08/07/2014 at 14:17

Thanks for the kind words. I'm older than I look so I have accomplished a few things along the way. If you like cars, check out the turbine car book listed above.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:18

Reading things like this just makes me sad and angry.

But think of the kids, they'll say. Certainly if it wasn't for the good and righteous LEOs doing their job, the WWDC would end in a giant fiery ball of death every year.

Props for trying to do the right thing. Sorry it turned out the way it did.

SteveLehto > Chaparral2F
08/07/2014 at 14:19

Can you imagine what my life was like driving that bright yellow charger when I was 17? I can't even begin to tell you how many times I was pulled over. And half the time they'd let me go after checking my license, registration and Proof of Insurance.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > infinityedge
08/07/2014 at 14:20

Someday hopefully more people will see that. I've suffered once due to a cop lying...it's never going to happen again. Out of probably the 30 or so that I've met in my life...only a couple ever have ever been decent human beings.

TechWeasel > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:20

What a horrible abuse of the system on the part of the prosecutor... "You hired someone who has a track record of providing effective defense, so THERE WILL BE NO MERCY FOR YOU!" The end result is that it makes people less likely to hire a lawyer and actually exercise their rights, lest they be made into an example. That's pretty evil.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > StevenG
08/07/2014 at 14:20

fascinating.

I sincerely had no idea.

SteveLehto > Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment
08/07/2014 at 14:20

The amazing thing - which I always liked to point out - was that of the hundreds of people I represented, NOT A SINGLE one was involved in an accident or a situation where a person or car was hurt. Most of these people love their cars too much to take chances with them.

GasGuzzler > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:22

Thanks for the article, Steve. Also, just got through reading your book on the Chrysler Turbine Car. Excellent piece of work, your book and the car, of course.

SteveLehto > TechWeasel
08/07/2014 at 14:22

Or, they could hire a MORE EXPENSIVE attorney (since I was doing it for free). They were trying to make it harder for everyone involved.

SteveLehto > GasGuzzler
08/07/2014 at 14:23

Thanks. If you like Mopars, you might notice that the top pic in this piece is of the Northwood shopping center, completely taken over by Chrysler. There are several dozen Hemis (old and new) in that pic.

StevenG > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
08/07/2014 at 14:24

I think that is very common. I bet most people think a public defender is something anyone can get. It probably should be that way.

I have seen innocent people plead guilty simply because they could not afford to go to court. They could afford a lawyer at first, but not enough to be able to go to court.

rgt881 > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:24

used to be wild in early 2000s where girls would show their boobs and guys would do massive burnouts and by massive, I mean you could not see anything, smoke would be higher than those high rise apartments in Birmingham. I'm looking forward to hanging in Ferndale with the Ford people!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > StevenG
08/07/2014 at 14:26

I suspect just like me, all those who have that misconception have watched too many episodes of cops (hearing miranda rights read over and over again while not paying attention to the "if you cannot afford one...." part) and never needed a criminal defense lawyer.

OriginalWheelman > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:27

So the government responds to a united people with stiffer fines and penalties than those who did not band together? How is that legal?

bubbajoe123456 > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:30

"I did my best to pack the jury with car guys. I asked if any of them owned classic cars. One hand went up: he and I talked about big block Camaros for a bit. That first trial ended in a NOT GUILTY."

I'm amazed that the prosecutor didn't challenge this juror...

TheCrudMan > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:31

If I ever get busted for reckless driving in Michigan I know who to call (and pay.)

detroitcobra > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:32

As someone who lives in a city along the Woodward corridor, I can tell you that we can all deal with the "third Saturday in August each year". If you aren't into it, you pretty much get the hell out of town.

The problem most people have isn't even the week before. The problem is that at least a month before the actual dream cruise, people think it's okay to come and cruise and hang out. It makes it extremely difficult to go about your daily business when this is going on and generally drives us nuts! While I don't think it's fair to target cruisers on the actual day of, I would love nothing more than seeing people getting tickets for everything they have coming to them prior to the actual day.

It's not a dream for everyone, it's more of a nightmare for a lot of people.

SteveLehto > bubbajoe123456
08/07/2014 at 14:32

For every car guy I slipped through, he got through a senior citizen who hated the racket made by the cruise. Things like that happen all the time in jury selection.

Milky > Milky
08/07/2014 at 14:33

*police

Chaparral2F > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:33

Yellow Charger? Need more information here. Year and engine would be great. See, I have you pictured as driving a 426 Hemi Charger with a high lift cam and headers. We speak the same language.

SteveLehto > detroitcobra
08/07/2014 at 14:34

I have friends who live a block from Woodward and for years my office was at Woodward and Catalpa. I know what you are saying. It is a lot like fireworks: the 4th is okay. But two months later on a weeknight?!

SteveLehto > Chaparral2F
08/07/2014 at 14:35

I was 17 working at a gas station (one minute from Woodward). It had a 383 4bbl. Nothing special in that regard but then again, I WAS 17. (I bought it for $300 - another story for another day.)

SteveLehto > rgt881
08/07/2014 at 14:37

The first few years the police didn't even write tickets for burnouts. Someone drew a line in front of Duggan's and they would pour water so guys could pull up and do massive burnouts. Very orderly, everyone took their turn . . .

StevenG > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
08/07/2014 at 14:37

Yeah, and that is very misleading. Many people do not qualify for public defenders but cannot afford lawyers either. This leads to the situation I described above. Pleading guilty to simply avoid ending up impoverished.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > StevenG
08/07/2014 at 14:39

yea I can see how that would be a better option. Plead guilty and pray for a lenient sentencing or miss your mortgage payment....

Auto Financer > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:41

So woodward has cracked down on cruisers so hard that business gave to the city police certain jurisdictional rights to kick and ticket anyone in ther parking lot. This has ruined the car scene there. This happened last month. Many of these business are now closed. Dont bite the hand that feeds you.

TheExplainer > infinityedge
08/07/2014 at 14:42

In the case mentioned in the story, why would the jury believe the testimony of the defendant's buddies (fellow occupants of the car) either?

SteveLehto > Auto Financer
08/07/2014 at 14:43

I remember getting kicked out of the bank parking lot (next to the ice cream place) because the police told us we needed to move along . . . some things never change.

thesalad > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 14:44

Interestingly females tend to get off / out of tickets easier.. My wife is a worse driver than me, has done way more$ damage to her own vehilce, and has been on the receiving end of a discussion with an officer more than I. The difference is she never actually got a ticket. I did.

biffo > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 14:44

I feel like that insurance thing will slowly change over the next decade as more and more teenage girls/ young women rear-end people because #textingismoreimportant

Auto Financer > Milky
08/07/2014 at 14:44

Why businesses are closing there.

Chaparral2F > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:44

Hey, being 17 and having a 383 was nothing to sneeze at. My dad, now of blessed memory, was an accountant and then an insurance salesman. He was very conservative and drove 10 year old Buick Electras. In 1970, I worked 7 days a week at a factory and saved up enough money to buy a decent used car. In the small town where I worked, there was a 1967 Z/8 Camaro sitting under some canvas at a local gas station. It was a very early model Z/28 and was the first one in that town. The owner wanted to sell it and I had the money. But alas, when my dad saw the VIN#, he went crazy and started yelling about underwriters and all that crap. I was still 17 and would have given my left nut for that car. Orange with black stripes. A Charger with a 383 would have been like heaven on earth for me at the time.

yamahog > biffo
08/07/2014 at 14:46

As the young male Opponauts who admit to sexting while driving can attest to, that's hardly as one-sided as you make it out to be.

Auto Financer > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:46

You guys are just old now. Seriously those people mean money for business on Woodward. Your ignorance is pretty crappy.

smalleyxb122 > StevenG
08/07/2014 at 14:47

I assume that it's that way everywhere.

I find it upsetting that because I pay for the public defender (at least in part), I can't use him/her.

SteveLehto > Chaparral2F
08/07/2014 at 14:48

I agree with you. The funny thing is that right now I am writing a book on Daytonas/Superbirds and am interviewing all these guys with Hemis and 6 figure cars. I always hesitate to mention that I had the Charger since it ONLY had the 383. But, trust me, if you stepped on it - it went.

yamahog > thesalad
08/07/2014 at 14:48

>"females" (sidenote: gahhhh just say women, we're not animals)

>sample size? 1

Generalization, we meet again.

Auto Financer > DetroitMuscle
08/07/2014 at 14:48

The business gave away rights of their property to police for insurance reasons. Said Businesses are now struggling.

StevenG > smalleyxb122
08/07/2014 at 14:50

I doubt all legal systems on earth have that flaw, but I am sure they all have their own flaws. Ours seems to be particularly good at punishing those who have a criminal lack of riches.

SteveLehto > Auto Financer
08/07/2014 at 14:50

I'm not so hard on the cars as I am on the fireworks. But my office was a law office and it could get annoying when I was on the phone and some guy was outside the window doing a brake torque as plumes of smoke floated past my window. But thanks for calling me ignorant, considering I'm the one who defended hundreds of those car owners for free.

infinityedge > TheExplainer
08/07/2014 at 14:51

Tie goes to the defendant.

If we stop acting like cops never ever lie in court and stop taking them at their word, maybe they'll actually show up to court with evidence instead of, "trust me, I'm a cop."

Xedicon > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:52

The 383 was a beast in its own right, at least in the smaller cars. No shame in rocking one!

NeedSSpeed > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:53

As a Royal Oak resident and obvious car enthusiast, on the day of the Dream Cruise, I have no problem with people doing burnouts. Usually Woodward is moving pretty slow the Saturday of the cruise and usually the night before and while it's still maybe a little "reckless" I don't have any problems with it. Any other day of the year I have a problem with it.

It's been crazy how much the ROPD has cracked down on the pre-cruisers. It's been strange seeing the Normandy Plaza completely empty on a Friday and Saturday night with a lone ROPD Exlporer just sitting in there.

SteveLehto > Xedicon
08/07/2014 at 14:55

It and the Torqueflite it was twisting were bulletproof. I assure you it was torture-tested and never once gave me any trouble,

Xedicon > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:55

This exactly. I used to live a block from Woodward in Ferndale. I didn't even mind Friday / Saturday / Sunday of that weekend but man was it a pain otherwise.

Xedicon > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 14:59

Awesome! Also - I really like your articles, keep em coming!

SteveLehto > Xedicon
08/07/2014 at 15:00

Thanks! I write them when the inspiration hits and just hope someone will read them,

thesalad > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 15:24

sorry.. Women,
I can expand my sample size to all of the ones I know that have been told to "Just pay attention to your speed" or "get that registration straightened out"

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 15:28

Oh wow. That is pretty amazing. Of course, that doesn't really matter to those in charge I'm sure.

StndIbnz > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 15:29

Just stay out of Royal Oak. Hooning is for Pontiac only, Birmingham is where you go to stay all night and have a good time.

Royal Oak will kick you out of the city about 9-10PM, unless the parking lot is private and the owner doesn't care (Shell at Normandy and Woodward). Otherwise, just go to Birmingham where the cops don't bother you for parking, cruising and having a good time.

Also, thanks again for a great read Steve! Glad you decided to start writing some posts on here.

SteveLehto > StndIbnz
08/07/2014 at 15:31

There is usually a kind of quiet stretch from 16 or 17 until you get to Pontiac but the loop around the downtown is nothing but endless burnouts and the smell of burning rubber. I can smell it now . . .

yamahog > thesalad
08/07/2014 at 15:33

If anecdotal evidence is admissible, then maybe those officers are just tired of all the men I know who drive like maniacs and act like assholes when pulled over. But that'd be a silly and baseless assumption.

StndIbnz > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 15:34

Yup. 16-18 is all woods, so not much goes on there. I'll be down probably tonight and a few times next week.

StndIbnz > NeedSSpeed
08/07/2014 at 15:36

Good thing Shell there still likes cars.

drdude > biffo
08/07/2014 at 15:46

That insurance thing SHOULD change now, but the system is broken. Think about this.. If guys hoon about everywhere and almost no girls do... then why do the accident rates not reflect a huge amount of accidents by men compared to women?

Simple... because you cant judge driving ability by driver sex... nor by tickets.

Adognamedbash > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 15:49

I'm an attorney as well, but in North Carolina. Awesome job and props for actually going to trial pro bono.

Seems like that policy would be ripe for a selective prosecution/equal protection challenge. After all, short of indigent appointments, if argue that ones sixth amendment right to counsel includes the right to choose a lawyer of your choosing. Punishment for exercising that right doesn't pass the smell test.

SteveLehto > Adognamedbash
08/07/2014 at 15:51

They claimed that the policy applied to all Dream Cruise tickets - at least that's what they said whenever the topic came up. It was off the record that I was told (more than once) that I was the problem.

thesalad > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 15:51

I'm just sayin.. idiots drive like idiots, although insurance have them fancy comptuers to calculate $ for men and $ for ladies paid out and men cost them more moneies..

But Men are more awesomer anyways.. ever see a chick do a burnout? L A M E

yamahog > thesalad
08/07/2014 at 15:56

I'm assuming for your sake that last bit is sarcasm and moving on.

NeedSSpeed > StndIbnz
08/07/2014 at 15:57

Most of the weekend cruisers have moved back up to Birmingham. I noticed most of them are now congregating on both sides of Woodward between 14 mile and Lincoln.

BitzedcTyson > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 15:57

This is what I do,,,,,,,,,,

www.bayspay.com

The Texas Expat > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 16:05

sidenote reply: ...if not animals...then are y'all figments of imagination? Are we all just processes in a computer matrix? lol

yamahog > The Texas Expat
08/07/2014 at 16:07

No, we're effing humans, and referring to us as "females" (noun form, not as an adjective) makes it sound like we're an alien species being described on a Discovery Channel special. Huuuuuge pet peeve.

Sir Culgets the Square > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 16:09

In some years past, Pontiac has been like the wild wild west on Dream Cruise. I feared for my sheet-metal. Lately the police have been making a little more of a showing. We'll see how much their meager budget allows for this year...

RickiSoltl3 > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 16:29

This is what I do,,,,,,,,,,

www.bayspay.com

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 16:29

It just keeps getting worse and worse each year doesn't it.. :(

Glenn Branton > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 16:30

My insurance is going up because my wife ran into a post while driving my vehicle, meanwhile I've never had a claim in 35 years. Exh. B ;-)

davedave1111 > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 16:44

"Why our car insurance is lower"

You're shitting me. That's still legal in the US? WTF?

davedave1111 > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 16:45

"referring to us as "females" (noun form, not as an adjective) makes it sound like we're an alien species"

But not all females are women. One is sex, the other gender.

Oh, and how many alien species get described on the discovery channel? I wasn't aware we'd met any yet ;)

aimawayfromface3 > SteveLehto
08/07/2014 at 17:03

Kinja'd!!!

I miss my Charger so f-ing much....

yamahog > davedave1111
08/07/2014 at 17:05

Until recently (thanks, Affordable Care Act!), it was balanced out by women having higher health insurance premiums, as being a woman was considered a pre-existing condition... Also, domestic abuse victims had their insurance premiums increase for being hospitalized by their partners too many times. USA!

yamahog > davedave1111
08/07/2014 at 17:06

As if the type of people who refer to women as "females" know the difference between sex and gender.

yamahog > Glenn Branton
08/07/2014 at 17:11

My insurance quote for my motorcycle, current Jeep, trailer, and future V8 muscle car combined (I quoted both brand new Mustang GT500s and SRT 392 Challengers thinking those would cost the most to insure) is less than my boyfriend's 2013 Mustang GT and 92 Miata, and we are the same age with the same number of tickets living in the same zip code. Yay anecdotes!

davedave1111 > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 17:11

Well, all of those are unfair discrimination, and ought to be banned. Except the domestic abuse one, which is arguably justifiable discrimination, but ought to be banned anyway because it's in incredibly poor taste and affects such a tiny minority (I very much hope) that the financial impacts would be minimal.

I would also point out that domestic abuse is not restricted to one sex or gender.

yamahog > davedave1111
08/07/2014 at 17:13

That's why I didn't lump it in with the point about women's pre-existing conditions, just a further indictment of our dismal healthcare system.

davedave1111 > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 17:15

Pedants? Rudyard Kipling? Perhaps there's a link you've encountered that I haven't, but I'm really not sure who you're suggesting are 'the type of people'.

davedave1111 > yamahog
08/07/2014 at 17:19

Oh, I see, I didn't realise you were moving on to another topic there :)

It's amazing really, talking of healthcare systems, that both the UK and US manage to have entirely screwed up healthcare, but in two pretty completely different ways. It really pisses me off that we can't sort things out, because it's not like there's actually any doubt about the best way to run a healthcare system, what with many countries already using it and proving that it works.

Go Go Cactus Lady > biffo
08/07/2014 at 17:24

Young people in general are texting behind the wheel. Do you have any evidence to suggest one sex is doing so more often?

Go Go Cactus Lady > drdude
08/07/2014 at 17:27

You're looking at it far too simply. Men and women have roughly the same number of "accidents", however male drivers are more likely to have wrecks which involve multiple cars, higher speeds, higher amounts of property damage, severe injuries, and fatalities (on average) than female drivers. If it seems unfair, you mostly have guys < 25y.o. to blame.

yamahog > davedave1111
08/07/2014 at 17:29

Neckbeards. It sounds like we have more and more of them in the US every day.

TheRealMikeyG > infinityedge
08/07/2014 at 17:31

in my youth i once had a local police officer swear under oath on the witness stand that i spun the rear tires and fishtailed my way around a right hand corner accelerating at a high rate of speed while continuing to spin the rear tires after i made the turn.

funny thing was i was driving a fwd pontiac grand am at the time.

the judge laughed at the officer, told him he probably needed to pay more attention before making up an obvious falsehood, and the prosecutor immediately moved to drop the case.

the best part was i had two witnesses with me that were going to testify on my behalf, one who is now an officer in the same city who was a good friend and in the vehicle.

we still laugh about that story every time we get together.

Go Go Cactus Lady > davedave1111
08/07/2014 at 17:31

Yeah, but driving is a privilege and I don't understand why female drivers should have to subsidize male drivers if we have lower claims on average.

yamahog > davedave1111
08/07/2014 at 17:35

American Exceptionalism strikes again....