Question on crosspost etiquette

"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce) 07/28/2014 at 01:30 • Filed to: da rules

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So last night, shit went down almost solely because of a crosspost by a member of oppo and another kinja blog. Normally this itself wouldn't warrant a blog post but we are currently editing and revising the handbook so now is the time to bring it up - how do we/they handle crossposts? Actual discussion and suggestions after the jump.

So last night we had K-roll being a typical 18-25 y/o. And by that I mean kind of an idiot. I speak from experience as my own series of posts is about hipster cars people forgot about so I know and participate in the dumb-posts that are just kinda harmless and not too meaningful. But last night's post struck a nerve with a particular commenter who shared it with another kinja sub-blog who reacted in a rather extreme fashion against it. Before people grab their pitchforks - Oppo has done the same to other blogs' posts being shared to oppo/jalopnik. And yes, we e-fought in the comments in a similar fashion to what happened last night. Look past the difference in topics for a second and realize that in both cases, the group that the post got shared to was the crowd that has a very definitive stance on those issues.

So my question is this - What is the proper etiquette for dealing with crossposts that may violate oppo posting rules? As far as I can tell, last night's crosspost to a different sub-blog would be filed under "shit stirring" just as other posts shared from pages like gizmodo to Oppo before it. Any of the "autonomous cars" or "a future without cars" posts shared to Oppo/Jalopnik were treated as battle cries despite that being expressly forbidden in the rules This has happened before and will happen again so we should address it now while we have recently experienced both sides and are revising the rulebook.

Have a Bugatti Type 37 to keep us all on the classy track.

Edit: Part of my question was "Who is responsible" when a post gets cross posted to stir shit? The person who made the original post or the shit stirrer? Groupthink JUST posted a guide to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! so I would imagine they expect an apology to avoid further problems. We do not have such a requirement on Oppo but this is why I'm asking - different blogs have different rules and what is josher for one isn't kosher for another.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

YSI-what can brown do for you > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:34

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I think we can file this under "don't be a dick"

If you know it is gonna stir shit, don't do it!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/28/2014 at 01:38

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Okay, cool, but what about someone from another blog stirring shit on their home blog? How do they get in trouble for getting a member of oppo in trouble who only posted their post to Oppo?

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:39

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I think we need to learn to not let our emotions dictate how we post on Oppo. We need to learn to be more rational. There are some of us (not naming names, you know who you are) who take way too many things personally, I know I have done this and I know I will do this again. We just need to be aware of it and take steps to prevent it from happening again.

PowderHound > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:40

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do what you want. It's a free country. I saw a 35 the other day though. I'm also drunkish and realize this can be moderated however in the hell it wants. I also never saw what started this kerfuffle, shout out buffalo right now, so my my point is moot. I guess the take away would be less drama more awesome shit

YSI-what can brown do for you > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:41

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Well we can't control that. What we can do, and it is what I do, is if they do get offended or try and make you look stupid instead of trying to have a nice discussion, you just do asshat things.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 01:44

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But again, that doesn't tackle the issue of crossposts where rules might be different. That's what this is all about. How do we handle those? The post from last night got deleted by the author, but what if it hadn't? Should the crossposter be asked to delete the share? Should the crossposter lose posting privilages in Oppo? Would mods have the right to take it down for shit-stirring because of the crosspost? That's what I'm asking.

Oppo has very free/loose rules for what can and can't be posted. Hell we can post softcore porn so long as we label/hide it as such. I have an odd feeling GT would not approve of the same but then again, it isn't their blog. So our rules allow it, theirs don't. SO if you share a post that is allowed under our rules but not in the sub blog's rules, who is responsible for the fault?

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:45

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Determining intent and foreknowledge for these sorts of things makes it really really hard to figure out if something was malicious. I'm only hearing about this secondhand, as I never saw the original post and the subsequent kerfuffle.

I think that potentially the biggest takeaway from your post that I can think of is that we should be sharing with as much (or as little) forethought as we do when we post something. Every post should be something worth sharing, worth discussing and worth bringing to the attention of others.

I don't know who shared it, or under what circumstances (context could play a huge role if only part of the story was told), so I don't want to say that what happened last night would be shit stirring, but without exact knowledge of the situation, I can see scenarios where it definitely could be, and I could see others where it would absolutely be an innocent act of someone trying to help .

Groupthink have many folks with very level heads and rational approaches to situations. They do self-identify as a feminist space, and anyone posting there should be aware of that going in. However, in order to cross post to GT, they would have been an author there, so I would assume that would be the case. (Also, if they aren't an author here, we can't really do anything as it isn't out place to deal with it... but I will say that our handbook is based upon the same premises as GT's, so in general, they have a very similar set of rules).

TL;DR, if the act was clearly an intentional act of shit stirring, then yes, absolutely it would be a violation of the handbook. However without context and subtext it is very hard to determine intent.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/28/2014 at 01:45

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........

SO if they break Oppo rules, break oppo rules and be an asshat? No offense but that won't make these situations better.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:47

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My comment was more referring to the reason last nights post got shared to GT. If we can change that aspect we can prevent alot of stuff like last night. I think it is possible to have rational discussions with groupthinkers (on different subjects than last night, of course), its just that last nights share was too emotionally charged for that to happen.

Gamecat235 > PowderHound 07/28/2014 at 01:48

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Weird psychic connection high five for simultaneous use of "kerfuffle" whilst drinking. I'm going to ignore the rest, because, well, do what you want, but expect consequences when you know better. =)

Manuél Ferrari > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:48

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I think the cross post was shit-stirring.

But I have no idea how to stop it. The blog it was posted to may not have the same rules. So I guess all the Oppo mods can do is find out who cross posted and remind them of the Oppo handbook and ask them not to do that.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:48

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Now I missed the original post but I think one thing for sure is to CLEARLY MARK EVERY POST. Everything from NSFW to Rants to personal stuff. Make it clearly marked so if you dont care, you dont click. Also even in the teaser paragraph explain "hey this might offend someone" just to try and take a bit of pressure off.

As for cross share... I wish there was a way we could approve it before it happens. Like a warning saying "hey, your article wants to be shared to such and such blog, do you approve? " either that or maybe a way to lock it only to a certain page. When we make a post, it forces us to pick where to share. Maybe let us lock it so it cant happen.

Im glad that the right thing was done though and pulled down.

Remember the internet is scary and not everyone sees the same way you do.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 01:51

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Let's revisit that word - Intent. Maybe the OP did not have misogynistic intent when he posted out of frustration. However, the post was shared with the express intent of sharing to a decidedly gendered crowd that was the gender the OP was effectively ranting against. Was that crosspost done with the intent to stir shit? I don't know. I find it hard to argue that either was done without intent. Obviously OP eventually realized he was making a rant against the gender he was attracted to and the crosspost was done to share to the people h was ranting against. In my mind, both were at fault. But what's the punishment here? As far as I can tell, so long as the post is deleted after a bit I can sic the dogs on people by sharing to Oppo and stir all the shit in the world against someone who is ignorant of cars and there will be no consequence. At least, that's the (admittedly extreme) precedent I see here. Unless the person who shared had a private email by admins or something.

YSI-what can brown do for you > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:51

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Yes. And it totally can make them better! I mean it usually doesn't but whatever.

PowderHound > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 01:51

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kerfuffle! Also I didn't really read anything. Hence drunk. If any one takes whAt I say to heart I take pity on their souls but then again reading something isn't the same as me saying it.

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:52

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Knowing both the poster and the one who shared it to GT, I don't think there was any malice intended when it was crossposted. But yes, it did get taken /way/ out of proportion, because the crosspost allowed a group of people who don't know K-Roll to form a snap judgement.

I don't necessarily think the cross-poster was being a dick, but the GT crew that came over /did/ violate our "don't be a dick" rule. It would be nice to get an apology from them, but a more realistic plan would be to make it clear that we won't tolerate this behavior in the future, and proceed to make sure we back it up with our Hammers of Truthiness (tm).

Gamecat235 > Manuél Ferrari 07/28/2014 at 01:55

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Two things,

1. GT and Oppo share a similar approach to our general rules. For cereal. Check it out: http://groupthink.jezebel.com/guide-to-comme…

2. In order for the person to have shared it to GT, they would have been an author there. Not necessarily one here. I don't know the situation entirely, or the parties involved. But I do know Kinja, and I do know both spaces very well (I've been participating on GT for years).

...with that in mind, the whole thing seems odd. I would try to move on unless there is something which requires addressing.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:55

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I think under normal circumstances (not shared to GT) this would not have been as bad as it was, I think that the OP would have gotten support from his fellow opponauts with out the emotion charged rants of Groupthinkers. When emotion is taken out of the equation, rational discussion occurs.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 01:56

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Beats me... in my opinion, if anyone posts anything to Oppo, said person shouldn't get in trouble in another sublog he might not even be aware of in the first place because of it. I think the members of a community should discuss and solve polemic issues within said community, and not chase people into other communities to tell them how they should think and act. And that's valid for both us and other sublogs. I hope I wasn't too confusing, I'm a bit sleepy :p

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 01:57

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I'd come close to agreeing but by that logic, we need to basically state in the handbook that nothing in your personal life can be shared. Good or bad. Because those psots are heavily based on your emotions. And yes, what is a good emotion for one can be a bad emotion for another. Extreme example - A poster on Oppo follows a "positive experiences only" rule and makes a post about how he ditched a bad date. This is then shared to groupthink who counter that he was basically a massive ass. No one can prove what he did or did not do so it is up to mods to decide how to handle the post. According to oppo, he followed the rules and is happy about what happened. But according to GT's rules, he was being an asshole and should apologize. Hopefully this never happens, and it shouldn't, but people are dumb so it probably will if it hasn't already.

Anyways, I think that gets my point across, I want a judgement call by the kinja admins as to how to handle crosspost rule inequality.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 01:58

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For cereal? Are we getting free breakfast for clicking that link?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 07/28/2014 at 01:58

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I get it, but at the same time the person who made the original post might have some responsibility. I'm not going to say much more as I think the moderators of all of the kinja blogs should figure something out.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 07/28/2014 at 02:01

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I "agree" in the sense that they were violating our own rules HOWEVER, K-roll violated theirs while being unaware he was doing so. So technically he owes THEM an apology as well. I just feel like they're not going to give it if the post was made as a shit-stir-share and not as part of a greater post. To my knowledge, the person who shared did NOT make a post explaining what their opinion was of K-roll, just shared the post without context where he said something misogynistic and let the mob do the rest.

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:01

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By no means am I saying that there is no consequence to be expected. But in some cases reaping what you sow is the full extent of the consequence. In others it can get much worse. I don't have the specifics of the who/what/when and since as far as I know I haven't been contacted by any of the GT moderators (some of whom I count as friends), I don't know that it rose to the level where we need to do something to further act on this.

If there was clear shit stirring behavior, then hopefully the OP, the sharer (if they are separate people) and the participants have learned something from this. Or perhaps I'll hear more on the subject later. I would never say that anyone has a "free pass" to act poorly. Part of the bit in our handbook that was included was to address some of this with the " here or elsewhere that will lead back to Oppo" part on the shit stirring explanation. I think Denver has a point though, once emotion enters into the fray all bets are off.

Gamecat235 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:02

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Yeah, but it's all healthy. =)

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:02

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I don't see any bad intent was behind the cross post. Yes OP could've worded what he said better and not have been so emotional about it, but he's young and made a mistake. I think the main intention of being shared was to try and get another opinion on the situation. Sadly it was taken out of context. Some bad shit happened, and the sharer realized they had made a mistake by cross posting and the OP had made a mistake of posting while still kind of emotional about the situation. Both of them have seemed to made up after both realizing their mistakes. I don't want to see people get hurt. Sometimes youth and emotions get in the way of how we think and stuff like this happens. I feel this time it should just pass and be nothing but a distant memory, but if it happens again then action should be taken. Just my $0.02

Dusty Ventures > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:07

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It depends on the motives of the share. If done to attempt to facilitate discussion, then no harm no foul. If it's shared as a "battle cry," as you put it, then that violates the rules of Oppo, and the standard procedure of warning/banning will be followed.

In the case of last night, it was shared by Kat, who is relatively new to Oppo and not yet familiar with us and our weirdness. She said she did so purely to try and facilitate dialog and get input from a broader scope of contributors, there was no malicious "let's get him" intent there. Furthermore, she unshared it the moment someone raised an objection to it being shared to GT.

As for the GT regulars who commented, I admit I may have missed a few posts but I thought they were, for the most part, very civil. Yes, they chastised K-Roll a bit (and in fairness their point wasn't without merit), but none of the comments I saw were genuinely hostile, and many of those telling K-Roll they disagreed with what he was saying were even trying to explain the issue in what I saw to be a helpful manner, both in regards to how to better success in future romantic endeavors and in why they took issue with what he said and their perspective on the whole "friend zone" thing. In fact the only person I saw call K-Roll a jerk/asshole/etc was K-Roll himself (though again, I may have missed some comments). Frankly, if all discourse on the Jalopnik front page were as civil as what I saw last night I'd be over the moon.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 02:09

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It did not rise that far because OP deleted it, as he has a tendancy to do the second people begin arguing on his posts' comments. I don't know what was said either because of this.

However, you bring up a valid question - Do other blogs have the same rules we do? If not, then I again must ask what protocol is? If another blog does not expressly ban "shit stirring" that might lead back to the sub-blog then are they allowed to take a dump on cars while we have to sit back and smile?

If you are a mod of oppo then have a chat with the mods from other sub blogs and ask if we can get a unified rule book. Because this shit isn't going away. It will only become more common.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 07/28/2014 at 02:11

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It WILL happen again which is why I'm raising the question now. What will we do? I don't think it's fair for either the posters of Oppo nor the people who want to crosspost to have to worry about their actions. We need some clear cut guidelines on this as there are none now other than a "Don't stir shit that leads back to oppo" rule and again, that can be taken both ways. Talking about how great gas thirsty V8s are is perfectly fine and normal on Oppo but on another blog that could be seen as "shit stirring" depending on the audience. So what do we do?

Hopefully this brings some attention to some mods.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:13

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I agree, but I still think that depends on whether the shitstorm was caused by the crosspost or the post itself. I mean, Groupthink can't take offense for every little thing posted on Oppo that they happen to disagree with, for example (a crosspost is just a link after all), because they have no business butting in our discussions. If they want to participate in a crosspost that brings them into Oppo, they should have to follow our rules, just like we would have to follow the rules of any crossposts we chase into other blogs...

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:15

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See, that part about violating their rules while being unaware; that shit is wrong. It was never intended to go over there, so why the hell should he apologize for stirring their shit, when he didn't post it there?

I'm not making excuses for either side, but I think K-roll definitely didn't deserve the vitriol that was directed his way, but I don't think the cross-poster intended for the scorched earth policy that his/her fellow GTers adopted. However, I think we should try, as a group, to reach out and come to a middle ground with them. The relationship between us and them is already somewhat rocky, based on my memories of past spats, as it is. We don't need to make it worse...

I'm leveling a bit more anger toward them, because they nearly chased off one of /our/ own, while we've never, to my knowledge, done that to them. I'm not suggesting we do so, but I do think that of the wrongs, theirs is the more serious one.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:16

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I just think that if you are going to cross post at least try and put some context into what it is so people don't do this. Yet still people have to be responsible for their own actions, both IRL and here on this network of Kinja blogs. There has to be consequences for this stuff too. I don't know what we really can do about it though.

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:17

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I'm less concerned with how other spaces are moderated because we can control what is posted here. If someone from another blog posts or shares things here with the intent or result of specifically causing trouble, then we can remove their authorship here and/or block them from commenting. Each space within Kinja has it's own set of ground rules and assumptions and policing of such. I wouldn't change that.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:18

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Is there a way that the OP could be notified about the crosspost and have to approve it before hand?

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 07/28/2014 at 02:19

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I couldnt have said it better myself

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:21

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Maybe not a 100% unified rule book but some core rules should be universal

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 02:23

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I disagree. I think we might need a unified set of rules or some basic set of rules to avoid cross-shit-stirring and then each sub blog can make their own set of sub-rules.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 07/28/2014 at 02:24

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In my opinion since Kroll did not share it to GT, whoever did should be the one to apologize. yes Kroll violated GT's rules but Hes not the one that brought that post over there.

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:27

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Those would be the kinja/gawker terms of service. Violate those and you're likely to have your account terminated.

I think that in the case of the scenario we have encountered, both communities essentially have the exact same set of rules when it comes to the potentially offending act. Trying to moderate across different spaces with different expectations and suppositions would be an exercise in futility. Especially since anyone can create their own kinja group blog.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 07/28/2014 at 02:27

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Now you and I are on the same page - he violated rules unwillingly and got punished for it. But at the same time, who is responsible for the apology? I posted their own rules for a reason - they expect an apology? I think both OP and crossposter should make a public one if that's part of their rules. Checking both of their profiles came up with no apology to GT and only K-roll apologized to Oppo. Granted, K-roll's apology would need to be crossshared but it wasn't. I like Kat, but that was bullshit IMO. If that crosspost is kosher, then I apparently have free reign to drag in the various gizmodo/gawker/i09 sub blogs where people post about their hate of cars (I have no clue if this happens outside of gawker, just throwing out an example).

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:28

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They should. They have not. And more and more people are getting pissed.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 07/28/2014 at 02:30

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I fully agree. I guess my answer is, when push comes to shove and mods decide that posting rights need to be revoked due to an article, who is to blame? Using what happened as an example, who would be to blame - the OP or the cross poster? Again I want to remind people that anti-car posts have, and could have been, shared to oppo. So we on oppo are far from "innocent" ourselves.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 02:31

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But last I checked, we don't agree to a "kinja/gawker" rule book before psoting in oppo, we just subscribe to the oppo rulebook.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 07/28/2014 at 02:32

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They should, because that would stop the straight shit-stir repost of a comment or post without context.

Manuél Ferrari > Dusty Ventures 07/28/2014 at 02:32

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This is a great comment right here.

I think you're right. I don't think anyone intentionally stirred shit. K Roll was just having some feels and thought he was safely talking within the cocoon that is Oppo. He said some misguided things but I don't think he meant any harm. He's a young guy and any guy who is now past his teens and early 20s knows how confusing that time can be.

After reading your comment I can see how Kat could have cross posted without malice. She's new to Oppo and hasn't seen how common these types of posts are. There are a lot of younger guys on Oppo and when posts like this come up people usually just ignore them or comment to tell their bro to keep his chin up because things will get better. Nobody realized how blown out of proportion things would later get.

And you're right that K Roll probably called himself an asshole way more than anyone else did. He's a nice guy and felt super bad about what happened. The ironic thing is that in reality he's not an asshole, and he would have been better off if he was because he wouldn't have gotten so hurt by what happened. If he was a jerk he would have been laying into anyone that criticized him instead of apologizing and calling himself the jerk.

I think all is well in the Kinja universe again. K Roll learned to cool off from an emotional night before writing something that might offend people. Everyone else learned to be careful when cross posting. Now we can all go back to talking about cars and posting the best Polandball cartoons :)

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:33

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I totally get your frustration, but remember Kat is in japan, she may still be asleep. She may not have seen what happened after she went to bed. I agree with you that she has to be responsible for her actions but be reasonable and realize the time difference. Give her a chance to catch up to the situation. Kat is a generally good person, a good person who can get a little hot-headed at times.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 07/28/2014 at 02:34

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I like this Idea

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:34

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When you created your kinja account, you accepted the terms of service for Kinja / Gawker. Some of the topics are covered here: http://help.gawker.com/ and the direct terms of use are at the bottom of every page. http://legal.kinja.com/kinja-terms-of…

Just like every other End User Agreement, you may not read what you have agreed to, but you still agreed to it.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Dusty Ventures 07/28/2014 at 02:34

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I can neither agree nor disagree with what was posted last night as I missed it all before deletion but what I will bring up is this - context. Context is everything in determining things like intent. So by that logic, neither party was wrong and neither party deserves a reprimanding, which seems to be what happened. 100% fair enough in my eyes as I did not see it but mods did so let's ignore that and focus on preventing crap like this in the future.

I am reminded of Gawker's "gift ideas" blog series where one particular asshat basically took a giant dump all over jalopnik and oppo by suggesting that you get jalopnik readers books and items to free yourself from cars. No other blog had similar treatment from their comments and it was a direct attack on both the main and sub blogs. But guess what? All those posts are still up! So unless shit like that is banned? I take it as a sign that I can bash other blogs at will and it doesn't count as "stirring shit" since apparently it's perfectly kosher to GET PAID to bash other blogs while being a shitty writer. The least the mods can do is let me be a shitty writer to blow off steam.

Manuél Ferrari > Manuél Ferrari 07/28/2014 at 02:35

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Edit no longer available so I'll add a comment.

After reading Dusty Venture's comment I no longer think the cross post was intentional shit stirring. I think it was just a weird confluence of events.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:35

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To be honest they're both kind of at fault. OP made a emotion filled passionate rant that probably could have been worded better or never posted at all and even though the broader opinion from the other side was wanted if it was never shared unless they were Oppo readers it would never have been as big as it was.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:35

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Precisely my point.

Minardi Gras > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:36

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It's 1530 in Japan, she should not be asleep.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:37

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It's a win/win. It won't be shared to shit stir unless OP is a moron, and it would give OP the ability to see if it is appropriate or relevant before it is shared.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 02:38

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Well as I pointed out in another comment, if you can get paid to take a dump on other blogs then you have some serious conflicts of interest here. Or, more likely, an ineffective set of rules. Change them. Use this as the gentle wake up call that things can get much worse.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 07/28/2014 at 02:38

1

I realize the limitations of kinja, as a second best alternative we should at least be notified when our stuff is crossposted. That doesnt always happen.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:40

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It's fucking 3:40 PM in tokyo right now. Fair enough to defend her actions but don't use the time zone as an excuse for her lack of an apology. It's at least noon for her right now so no, she has had a chance to see what came of the posts.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 07/28/2014 at 02:40

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They both are indeed at fault. And if I sound like I'm taking both sides in my comments, I am. I want a decision on what happens here. Personally, I think the double standard is unfair that the share was probably fine for GT but both the post and the share were NOT fair for oppo.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:42

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I'm notified when my stuff is shared by the jalop staff to the FP or to oppo but I'm unaware if I get notified to any other shares.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:43

1

So, in short... Kinja sucks?

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:43

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Well, K-roll doesn't, to my knowledge, have posting rights over at GT, so that would explain that lack of apology.

As for Kat, as long as she's cool with K-roll and vice versa, then they can coordinate the apology to the GT crew, on their own time.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Minardi Gras 07/28/2014 at 02:45

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well its 00:43 here in denver, so I should be in bed that may be why I thouhgt it was night in japan. another explanation: kat is a paid writer, maybe her boss is chewing her out for this kerfuffle and she's afk

Dusty Ventures > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:45

3

First off, pointing at the behavior of other blogs as a guideline for how you can/should be allowed to act definitely isn't the best metric. For the record, you do have permission to be a shitty writer and blow off steam here on Oppo, you just don't have permission to be a dick in the process :)

As for the Gift Guide fiasco, it was in bad taste, it was handled internally, it's over and won't happen again.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:45

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see my reply to minardi

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:47

4

I'm not sure you understand. I'm a volunteer here. I do all of this because this community means something to me (oppo, jalopnik, kinja, the internet) and want Oppo to be represented as best as it can be. The moderators for the other spaces (with only a very few exceptions that I am aware of, which exist for very good and very specific reasons) are also volunteers.

We have spent a great amount of time writing and refining the rules for what is expected here. At the end of the day, we only have so much control, and Kinja will continue to be what Kinja is. We are all guests here (except those on the gawker/kinja payroll) and are expected to play by the rules outlined by our hosts (gawker/kinja). In addition to those rules which everyone is expected to be held to, other subspaces have their own ground rules and social mores. The Gawker / Jalopnik gift guide was created by people who work side by side. In the same offices. And who share a similar boss. Controversy drives pageviews. Pageviews make money. Money makes the world go round. Oppo is not driven by money. We are driven by passion.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:48

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Yup, that's very true... In the end, we can only control what gets crossposted to Oppo and how we behave when chasing another blog's crosspost. I think the two guidelines to keep in mind here are "think before you crosspost" and "mind the locals when posting abroad". The first one covers avoiding crossposting to start shit, and the second one covers not acting like an asshole troll when following a crosspost. If we respect other blogs and members, we'll be in position to ask that they do the same when they come over...

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Dusty Ventures 07/28/2014 at 02:48

1

But it IS a metric because it is STILL UP AND GETTING PAGE VIEWS AND GENERATING REVENUE. And again - I do NOT have permission to be a dick, but the people who get paid do? Because if you switched the roles around a bit, that post would get deleted by the mods. This is part of my cry to the mods to figure this shit out. Especially to the authors and mods who get paid to do this.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:49

1

The reason for the share was to get another perspective of the post. It has kind of gotten kind of blown out of proportion as to the actual magnitude of it but yes things did get pretty heated. I feel that the post was fueled by emotion and that's why it seemed so aggressive. If K-Roll had worded things differently this could've gone differently. A lot of the issue came from the way it was worded. I'm not against people posting personal things here on Oppo, but if they are it'd be nice to keep everything here on Oppo and not sent elsewhere.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Minardi Gras 07/28/2014 at 02:50

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Looking at her kinja profile, it looks like she hasnt posted anything on any kinja site since late last night, she could very well be in trouble with the gawker hq (hypothesis based solely on the fact the she is a paid gawker employee, Im very tired, take what Im saying with a grain of salt)

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:50

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If she got chewed out as a paid writer for a 24/7 blog, she'd fire out a post ASAP to apologize. It doesn't take long.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:51

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see my other reply to minardi

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 07/28/2014 at 02:52

1

I know, which is why I said K-roll would need his apology to be shared. But again, I have only seen an apology to oppo from K-roll. An apology that was rightly deserved as it sounds like he was kind of ignorant (again) but learned his lesson. He should NOT have to coordinate it with the crossposter as they did not coordinate on the crosspost. If K-roll agreed that it should've been shared, then yes they should work together. But they didn't so no, that's on Kat's judgement.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 07/28/2014 at 02:53

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Motion Seconded

Dusty Ventures > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:55

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The number of mods who get paid to do this is precisely zero. And the Gift Guide is still up because, unlike on Oppo/Groupthink/Crosstalk/etc, things posted on the main page of Gawker/Jalopnik/Jezebel/Kotaku don't get deleted. Ever. Period. With almost zero exceptions.

Minardi Gras > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:55

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I don't really want to get involved as I am still hoping to organise a Tokyo/Japan oppo meet later in the summer and there aren't many potential attendees as is without further alienating anyone, but I think I remember (could be wrong) Kat saying she has a day job teaching English as well and that is likely the reason for her absence.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Minardi Gras 07/28/2014 at 02:56

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See what happens when you think while not tired! Thats a good hypothesis, lets go with that one

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Gamecat235 07/28/2014 at 02:57

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The Gawker / Jalopnik gift guide was created by people who work side by side. In the same offices. And who share a similar boss. Controversy drives pageviews. Pageviews make money. Money makes the world go round. Oppo is not driven by money. We are driven by passion.

So basically main page blogs are exempt from the rules that sub blogs must follow. Cool.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 02:57

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Yup

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 02:58

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If only passion made the world go round. I'd like that place

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Dusty Ventures 07/28/2014 at 02:59

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I get that mods who aren;t authors don't get paid. Still doesn't excuse the lack of unified standard for posts.

Gamecat235 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 03:09

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Yes. Emulating the behavior of some of the (paid) authors on some of the primary blogs which exist in the Gawker/Kinja universe will result in untoward results in many of the subblogs.

This is nothing new. And absolutely nothing that can or will change. If you don't agree with it, take it up with Joel Johnson, Nick Denton or the authors whose approach you disagree with. I don't care what others do in other spaces.

Dusty Ventures > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 03:12

4

Jalopnik authors aren't mods here on Oppo. None of the J-nik staff is involved in the operation of Oppo, we are genuinely by the people, for the people. If Matt, Travis, Raph or any of the others have an issue with something on Oppo they contact one of the mods, they don't act on it themselves. As for there not being a unified standard, the front page area of the Gawker network exists to create pageviews and revenue. That is their function, and some of the blogs in that network will sometimes use what we might consider sub-standard methods. Oppo, Groupthink and the other communal blogs aren't about revenue, we're about relationships, discussions, passion, interests, and community. As such we have a different yardstick as to what's allowed and acceptable.

samssun > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 04:30

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How about instead of creating a society of victims, making everyone walk on egg shells, and constantly begging forgiveness from the professional grievance crowd...we just start tuning out people who get up in the morning looking for a reason to be offended?

samssun > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 04:35

1

When anti-car stuff was posted here, which category did the general response fall under?

- we disagree with your opinion, and here's why, or

- how DARE you disagree with us, our view is the only acceptable one, we demand you be silenced and will throw a temper-tantrum until all countering views are removed

samssun > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 05:11

1

I'd think it would be obvious that if you post something that's fine here, you aren't responsible for a second party putting it elsewhere and third parties losing their minds over it. They can do whatever they want with whoever posted to their blog (delete it, remove privileges, etc), and we should do the same if they start shrieking here.

Trying to establish uniform rules means adding every pet group demanding not to be offended, which means applying the most restrictive mindset everywhere. Kind of like pushing authority from local to state to fed to world government, the control freaks win and everyone else loses. Let the sub-blogs be laboratories of democracy.

Kat Callahan > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 06:02

4

I had to prep students for Speech Contest, although I've been responding to notifications for my specific articles via iPhone all day, I haven't had a chance until just now to sit down and read through all of this (or even know it existed until I scrolled through to catch up).

There's a lot that seems to have occurred than I am entirely unfamiliar with while I was asleep, at work, or both. I've specifically reached out by email to the admin of Groupthink and I've asked Gamecat for a way to speak to him as well.

Here's what I'll say, based on what I think the issues are at the moment:

1) I did not violate the shit-stirring or "don't be a dick" rule of either subblog. At least not wilfully.

2) I did make a mistake, and that matters. My expectation of what would occur and the reality of what did occur are quite different. However, outcome matters more than intent, so I owe Oppo an apology. To Oppo as a whole, I am sorry. You have my sincere apology. As Dusty Ventures explained, I corrected my mistake as quickly as I could, and I apologised to K very soon after.

3) K did not violate any of GT's rules, unless I'm unaware of him going over to GT and doing something (that doesn't sound like him at all). He does not owe GT an apology, and I don't believe I do either.

4) Who does owe an apology is the few GT commenters who decided that rather than discuss the issue in way which would build K up, they decided to insult and mock him and tear him down. While there were a few GT commenters who did exactly what I had expected, there were also a few who were downright nasty. In addition, there were additional comments shared to GT after I had already unshared the post and made it clear of what the point of sharing already was. Those commenters owe an apology to K for their behavior, to me for betraying the trust I put in them, and both subblogs for violating the shit-stirring/don't be a dick rule for shares after the point at which sharing was agreed to be completely unacceptable.

Kat Callahan > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 06:12

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No, she did not. But she is seeing them now. She went to sleep and then she went to work—without her laptop.

Kat Callahan > Minardi Gras 07/28/2014 at 06:13

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That would be the correct reason.

Kat Callahan > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 06:19

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K did not violate GT's rules. I shared the post. The post doesn't get up and moved. It remains on Oppo. I don't think I violated any rules either, but K definitely didn't. And if anyone is claiming he did, they are wrong (unless they're a mod/admin, but I would be shocked to hear that).

Kat Callahan > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 07/28/2014 at 06:24

2

Absolutely. I completely agree with this, and this was my intent. It didn't happen, and I was, and remain, pretty shocked by it.

Kat Callahan > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 06:28

1

I'm not hot-headed, just forthright. ^_~

Kat Callahan > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 07/28/2014 at 06:29

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I do not feel an apology to GT is warranted, and certainly not from K. K and I are cool. If GT requires an apology (and I don't think it does, I think the majority of GT isn't even aware of this), then it would come from me.

Kat Callahan > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 07/28/2014 at 06:33

4

Clarification, people are reading emotionalism into my share that was not there. I think the reason for this may have been my joke about being riled up. I wasn't serious, that comment was tongue in cheek. My decision to share was an analytic one.

I had every intent on working with K to correct some of the issues in his thinking, and guess what, we did that . What I got horribly wrong, and apologised for, was thinking that I could draw in like minded individuals from GT to do the same. That did not happen. That's why an apology was owed to K, and also clearly an apology owed to Oppo.

Kat Callahan > Dusty Ventures 07/28/2014 at 06:44

3

In fairness, I did see a few GT commenters go beyond the pale, and I was pretty shocked. Throwing male tears gifs at him (and indeed, I did see one person call him an asshole, and I immediately said to knock that off).

Frankly, I agree, and I apologise, my share did not do what it was intended to do, which as you said, was an attempt to increase discussion on the topic and add more women's voices to share personal anecdotes. While some GT commenters did exactly that, there were a few who were outright nasty. There was absolutely zero grounds for the additional comment shares, too.

Very disappointing all around.

Kat Callahan > Manuél Ferrari 07/28/2014 at 06:45

1

I appreciate this.

Kat Callahan > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 06:54

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Denver, you are implying my reason was emotionalism. It wasn't.

Xyl0c41n3 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 07:54

6

I don't know what kind of shit storm went down between Oppo and GT, and honestly, I'm surprised I missed it, because I'm always on GT, but I just wanted to add something.

The "how to apologize to GT" post you linked to was written by a GT member in response to another GT member (several, lately, actually) deciding to be utter shitheels within GT. It was written with all the snark, and a sense of "stop being an asshole" after our own episodes of internal drama. It wasn't written with any intention of being a guide for members of other sub-blog communities to preemptively apologize to us GTers when we think we've been offended by people outside our community.

In other words, it would be as if an opponaut came in here and started calling all of you idiots on your own forum and insisting that their knowledge of everything automotive is vastly superior to all of y'all, all the time, no matter the topic. That's essentially what happened with a few people on GT that led to that "how to" post being created. It's tongue-in-cheek, with more than a little "shut the fuck up already." But it's meant for us, not anyone else.

Like I said, I don't know what happened between our two communities, but I'm gathering from the comments I've read that some GTers behaved less than admirably. I'm sorry that happened. I lurk sometimes to read y'all's posts and try to learn. I'm sorry a shit storm came a'brewin'.

Xyl0c41n3 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 08:02

5

When emotion is taken out of the equation, rational discussion occurs.

That's a bit of a misogynistic statement, dontcha think?

ETA: I saw below where you mention opponauts try being more rational, too. But still... in the context of the comment above, it kinda seems like you're making a statement regarding gender and emotion. Just wanting clarification of that point.

Kat Callahan > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 07/28/2014 at 08:51

2

I'm on Oppo mostly as a "private citizen." It's true, I do sometimes cross-post relevant articles, and I do put a bio paragraph at the bottom of things which get mainpaged up to Jalopnik, but Oppo is largely my leisure time. Not sure why I'd be chewed out for what amounts to a misunderstanding and a mistake on my private time on a pair of subblogs.

Leadbull > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 07/28/2014 at 09:03

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I'll maintain that K-Roll did nothing wrong or misogynistic. He was simply venting after a cold day of rejection. We've all been there before, and the "Oppo Lonely Hearts Club" has been a thing for years. You vent , you get over it, you move on.

This whole situation was extremely unfortunate for him. GT owes *him* an apology, and he owes them nothing.