Please help me understand this

"zeontestpilot" (zeontestpilot) 07/14/2014 at 10:06 • Filed to: question

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On my never-ending quest for car knowledge, I have developed a few questions about manual transmissions. Now, I do not own a manual, but I have a basic understanding of it.

This is what I know. In first gear, the rpm climbs quickly. With each sequentially numbered gear, the rpm drops, thus easing the stress on the inner parts, right? I have noticed that when this happens, the gears feel like they spin more 'freely'. I'm not really sure why, but it does.

Engine breaking, allows you to downshift from a high gear, to a low gear. When this happens, it feels like the wheels become 'restricted', thus slowing down the car.

I know these two things happen, that's a fact. And I've thought about this a lot, and I want to make sure I understand it correctly (thus why I'm asking you guys). From what I figure, the gears have different circumferences, right? If so, would it be that the lower gears has the larger circumference and the higher gears have a smaller one, and this is why the rpms differ with each gear?

Also, since I do not own a manual car, would there be an appropriate time to not use the highest gear? I know 1st is for getting the car quickly going, 2nd is for a slow start (for winter and such), and the highest gear (usually 4 or 5) is best for good mpg. But what about the other gears? I've wondered this because my automatic has go into 4th (overdrive) and 3rd (drive), and I know 3rd gear 'restricts' movement of the wheels, so if a dirt road has a lot of rocks of it, I tend to go to 3rd just to be safe (if I take my foot off the gas, it naturally slows down); is that ok?

Sorry if I didn't use the proper terms and such. And I'm always eager to learn more about cars, this is the next step in me being a full-fledged gearhead. If there is anything else you think I should know, I'd love to hear that too.

Thanks

Nibby > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:09

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Those are 2 cupholders. You can store bottles or drinks in them.

zeontestpilot > Nibby 07/14/2014 at 10:09

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Aha! My car has 3! You are obviously lying!

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:10

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http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.h…

OPPOsaurus WRX > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:12

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Dude your over thinking it, Its all magic. No1 really understands how it works. I doubt you would ever be able to get a car moving in top gear. When I first had my car, I was on a slight hill and was having a hell of a time getting it to go. I stalled out a couple times and it just wouldn't move as I left the clutch out. Turns out I was in 3rd instead of 1st.

The Ghost of Oppo > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:13

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There isn't really one specific time you use each gear. Sometimes I'm going 10 in 2nd and sometimes I'm going 25 to get up a hill. You don't just get good mpg in the higher gears, it depends on your speed. What gear you need just comes with experience and feel.

Trying reading this, it may help.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.h…

yamahog > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:13

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I've been waiting for a good time to use this gif!

STANDARD6SPEED > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:14

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Have you ridden a multi-speed bicycle before? If so, it works basically the same way as far as operation is concerned.

Very, very simply put, each gear is a combination of what ends up being 2 gears moving together to affect power transfer. The lower gears are going to be a small gear driving a large gear, and the higher gears are going to be a larger gear driving a smaller gear.

Also, engine braking is fine. I use it all the time.

Klaus Schmoll > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:14

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An appropriate time to not use the highest gear is when youu are decending from a larger mountain for example. Selecting a lower gear let's the engine help with the braking. Instead of continuously riding your brakes you can let the car roll along at a constant speed.

thebigbossyboss > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:16

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Gear ratio's depend on the car, but you are right, there are difference circumferences for each gear. Generally shifting upwards it is not advisable to skip gears, I mean you can usually skip a gear without hurting the car, but there really is no reason to. All it does is make it harder for your car to accelerate. Think about trying to start your pedal bike on 8th gear, it's going to be harder get rolling than starting in first.

If I go from stopped to turning onto a highway onramp I will go 1-2-3-4-5. (from 0 to 70 mph).

If I am slowing down, I usually use the pedal brake also and not just the gears so I might just go 5-3-2-N, or just 5-3-N depending on how fast I am slowing down.

If I am going from stopped to 45 mph I will just go 1-2-3-4. I won't use 5, because the revs will drop to almost 1K or below.

All the gears have a range...so if you try to go "too slow" for the gear, the car will buck and it won't be a nice ride.

Mr. FiSTer of Team FiST Fetish > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:16

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The easiest way to understand it is to actually go drive one!

zeontestpilot > yamahog 07/14/2014 at 10:16

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I've been meaning to see if I can create a manual transmission out of legos. Small children is usually what stops me...

thebigbossyboss > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 10:18

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I stalled my car at a stop sign this weekend. First time in a year. Don't know how I managed that.

miadaman? yes please > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:20

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Lower gear rpm climbs "quicker" is because it has more torque and can therefore accelerate faster, as well as the entire range of rpm covers less range of speed (for example, 0-6000rpm in first gear is probably 0-50km/h, whereas in 5th it's 0-200km/h).

Engine braking "allows" downshifting by slowing your car down due to the vacuum forming inside the combustion chamber. This puts resistance on your car when you are off or backing off throttling.

Higher gear seems smoother because at this point the output torque is so low compared to your car speed, it's basically being half driven by the momentum so any change in your throttle position that would otherwise being revealed at lower gear is smoothed out.

zeontestpilot > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 10:22

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Ha, it's my curiosity really. I like to understand what I don't know. I'm the son of a engineer, curiosity is in my blood.

And I figured you couldn't get a car moving in 5th gear, otherwise there wouldn't be multiple gears to choose from, :)

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:24

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This is what I know. In first gear, the rpm climbs quickly. With each sequentially numbered gear, the rpm drops, thus easing the stress on the inner parts, right?

It's not necessarily the case that the RPM will drop in standard operating range for each successive gear, but it's often the case. Remember that in first/second you're supposed to get up to speed quickly, so your engine is allowed to rev high, and the gears are typically low to allow that to happen. Third, fourth, and so on become gears you're supposed to cruise in, so tend to be tall to save gas. Sometimes there's more of a jump from low gears to high ones, sometimes it's in stages.

Remember, also, that as your car goes faster and faster, your engine has less "waste" power that can be used to accelerate from one step to the next. Your engine laughs at going 10 to 20, and maybe 20 to 30, but as your gears get taller, it's harder for the engine to push you additional steps up, because a lot of power is spoken for already. It's possible to have a trans and rear end in which you hit top gear very low *and* hit high revs in it, but it's not practical for driving.

It might be good to cover elementary gear theory here, as well. A given amount of power going in must come out in a proportion of torque and speed. Increased output speed means decreased output torque - unless progressively more power is provided. The higher the gear, the lower the torque at your wheels unless the engine has extra power to feed through to compensate. Double the speed, same torque would be double the power fed in.

This, coincidentally, covers your engine braking question. Shifting to a lower gear to engine brake is exactly backwards - it's like a higher gear *where the wheels are concerned*. To turn over the engine at a gear which is half the size means the wheels have to input twice the torque - because the wheels are trying to turn over the engine twice as fast at that point. It's like a mirror image of accelerating, only the engine is the load and not your car.

STREPITUS > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:25

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Off topic, but did you make it down to Royal Oak over the weekend?

Jayhawk Jake > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:27

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The answer to your first question is 'math, engineering, and gear ratios'. The gearbox itself has a bunch of gears in it that take the speed of the engine and translate it to the speed of the wheels. In lower gears the engine spins really fast and the wheels spin slowly, and in higher gears it gets a lot closer to direct drive, meaning the RPM of the engine gets closer to the RPM of the wheels. Why does it do this? Well, it takes less work to spin really fast and turn the wheels than it does to spin slowly and turn the wheels, so at low speeds (when you are trying to accelerate) the gearing makes it easier for the car to move. Have you ridden a multi-speed bike? It's exactly the same thing, just with more parts. In a low gear you kick your legs really fast and barely move the wheel, in a higher gear it's less revolutions but a heck of a lot more work.

As far as your second question, I'd say it's easier to say when it's appropriate to use the highest gear: you really should only be in top gear when you are at cruising speed. Doesn't even matter what speed, although if you are going really slowly you might not be able to use top gear without stalling the car. There's no real reason for not cruising in the highest gear unless you think you'll need power quickly. A dirt/wet/snowy road might be a case where you would cruise in a lower gear, but honestly that's as much to do with your speed as tit does the road conditions (typically smart people don't drive fast on snowy roads, unless they are hooning which is a different situation altogether)

zeontestpilot > The Ghost of Oppo 07/14/2014 at 10:28

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Hm, curious....I guess its one of those "you need to do it for yourself" type of things.

zeontestpilot > STANDARD6SPEED 07/14/2014 at 10:31

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Interesting. And I have driven a multi-speed bike before, but had no understanding of how to use it, so I kept it in one gear.

McMike > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:31

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Yes, that's how engine braking works. When you take your foot off the throttle, the drag of the engine will slow start to slow you down. The higher the RPMs, the more engine braking you will have.

This is how it works, but I don't suggest doing it. That's what the brakes are for. Use them to stop the car. They are much, much more effective and also cheaper to replace that a clutch.

Brakes are for stopping* - downshifts are for accelerating** Don't let any of your friends tell you anything differently. They are just showing off the little knowledge they have.

*Steep grades are the only exception.

**There are other times it may be appropriate, but let's let zeontestpilot get the hang of it first. Anything other than the will just create bad habits.

zeontestpilot > Klaus Schmoll 07/14/2014 at 10:32

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That makes sense actually. And I imagine it saves the brakes too. Thanks!

OPPOsaurus WRX > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 10:32

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i stalled at the second red light from the dealership when i picked it up. I havn;t stalled in a long time (few months since i've only had the car for 6 months)

OPPOsaurus WRX > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:34

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in theory its like riding a bike. some times my buddy and i will put the bike in top gear just to see how long it will actually take us to get up to speed. I like these posts though. I probably dont know much more than you and I always learn a ton when this comes up. And people like to show off thier knowledge and awesome GIFs

2222222222212 > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:34

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Think like a bicycle. If you started out in top gear from a stop, you need high effort in your legs to get the thing going. Your legs are the connecting rods. High load, high stress. When you start out in first, you barely need to put any effort in to get going quickly. Low stress on the connecting rods. The gears are meant to go in order to keep the effort of the engine low as the speed range increases. Most engine's speed efficient range in a direct-drive circumstance wouldn't allow for a high top speed. So gears are used to keep the engine in its happy zone of making power at low stress as the car accelerates past the 1:1 ratio of one engine cycle per tire cycle.

zeontestpilot > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 10:36

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I noticed that when I read the owner's manual for different cars, there were suggested speeds for each gear. 1st, I think, tends to be the 'shortest' gear (is that the right way to state it?), so it quickly jumps in rpms, causing the driver to shift to 2nd real soon....right?

I'll need to look into gear ratios now, so I can understand them better...

OPPOsaurus WRX > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 10:36

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when i leave for work in the morning i'll skip 3rd. Its just that when I shift out of second i'm already going as fast as i'm allowed to on the road so i go directly into 4th and cruise.

2222222222212 > miadaman? yes please 07/14/2014 at 10:40

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Good description. Important to note that horsepower is torque over time. Torque is the more tangible of the two values. Torque is simply the amount of force exerted by an individual combustion. Thats why BIG engine have high torque. It only takes 1 combustion to equal 4 combustions of an engine 1/4 the size. So the big engine makes an instantanious amount of torque, and the 1/4 scale engine makes that same amount of torque over a time period 4x longer than an instant. So the faster the engine goes, the more times you get a combustion, or power stroke in a given length of time. Thats horsepower. Honda S2000 needs to spin 9,000 rpms to make the same instant torque as an LS1 just off of idle. LOL

OPPOsaurus WRX > McMike 07/14/2014 at 10:41

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Yea when i was coming down Mt Washington I was in 1st and it was revving to 4-5k. I didn;t really like the idea of that but thats what they said to do.

The Ghost of Oppo > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:41

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Yeah, you just need to get a feel for it.

Bandit > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 10:41

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I've done that! I was trying to get off from a stop sign and kept stalling for 5 minutes. Turned out I was in 3rd. It was 3 on the tree and 1st is still really hard to find on that car.

zeontestpilot > Mr. FiSTer of Team FiST Fetish 07/14/2014 at 10:42

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Ha, I've driven like 3 manual cars before, all for under 30 minutes, total I think. Then I moved away and know no-one with a stick.

I would like to purchase one....eventually, but the future doesn't look too bright for that right now. So I just read up on it. I actually read up so much about it, that when a friend let me drive his VW diesel Rabbit Pickup, the only issue I had was getting into first gear. Shifting was ridiculously easy, he was a bit surprised that I did it so well (I guess other people he taught weren't that good). So, I'm just 'gathering knowledge' for now, hoping one day I can buy a stick, :).

thebigbossyboss > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:43

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First is the shortest. I only use it between like 0 and 20 km/h. I don't really understand gear ratios and have successfully a manual over 95,000 kms. It's not really necessary knowledge.

zeontestpilot > miadaman? yes please 07/14/2014 at 10:44

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That's really informative, thanks!

STANDARD6SPEED > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:45

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I have to say, I've never heard of that before. I'm going to guess you didn't major in mechanical engineering haha :P

thebigbossyboss > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 10:45

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yeah, it's not to say "don't ever do it" it's just that it's not usually standard procedure.

Once in a blue moon, I find myself in a situation where I skip a gear up but it's pretty rare for me.

OPPOsaurus WRX > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 10:48

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i just love the boost I get around 3,000 and the sound. If i repeat that in third i'll have a regularly scheduled cop waiting for me every morning

Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 10:52

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This is the same thing I do. I have a 5 speed and the roads I take to get to work only allow 35mph so basically, 1-2-4 is my driving. Unless someone decides to drive just slow enough that I need 3rd.

Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 10:54

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I stall my truck maybe once a year. I have no idea why, it just happens. I think that's the "magic" part of the manual trans that everyone talks about.

thebigbossyboss > Osiris - I can haz Euro spec? 07/14/2014 at 10:55

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Must be.

BJ > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:56

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Sequential transmissions made of Lego, in all shapes and sizes, can be found on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search…

McMike > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 10:56

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4-5K RPM?

That seems excessive. Could you not hold a safe speed in a higher gear, or is Mt Washington that damn steep?

—Edit—

I found this.

Some of it is oddly specific. Do they want motorists to descend in first gear, or do they simply want your cars to have a first gear? I also find it odd that they don't mention anything about manual transmission cars.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Jaguar, Saturn and Sterling autos with automatic transmissions must show a "1 or "L" or "S" on the shifter to be allowed on the Auto Road. Transmissions showing an "S" must demonstrate that this shifter will allow the transmission to be locked into 1st gear. Model year 2009 and earlier Honda and Acura vehicles must meet the same requirements as described above. Model year 2010 and later Honda and Acura vehicles are all allowed regardless of transmission type.

Maximum wheelbase on any vehicle: 161 inches (This excludes many club cab pickups and limousines).

Maximum width on any vehicle: 85 inches including mirrors (mirrors may be folded in to achieve this width).

No Hummers, except H-2 & H-3.

No trailers, RV's, campers or vans converted to RV's.

No mopeds or scooters.

No dual wheeled vehicles.

No pickups with permanent additions that extend wider than the cab (campers, rack bodies, or very wide mirrors).

Some former police cars and taxis have the 1st gear locked out and cannot be allowed on the road.

No Lincoln Continentals 1969 or earlier.

No bicycles.

Klaus Schmoll > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 10:57

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Yep, that and less risk of them overheating.

zeontestpilot > STREPITUS 07/14/2014 at 10:58

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No I didn't it. I am in the process of convincing my wife to come to Birmingham for a much needed date though.

zeontestpilot > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/14/2014 at 10:58

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So let me make sure I understand you here. With each sequential numbered gear, the torque decreases, right? (Unless more power is given to them). The lower gears can rev high so it gets the car moving, while the higher gears are meant for cruising.

So would it be safe to say that when the torque is strong (in the lower gears), it sends that power to the drive wheels, putting them in the same speed as the engine?

Am I close.....how far away am I?

miadaman? yes please > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:00

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You should read up on dyno chart after, it'll be a nice read and you'll come to understand why some cars are fast off the line but struggle in a straight.

zeontestpilot > Jayhawk Jake 07/14/2014 at 11:00

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Thank you!

zeontestpilot > miadaman? yes please 07/14/2014 at 11:02

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Oh, they do? ...now I'm interested... :)

OPPOsaurus WRX > McMike 07/14/2014 at 11:04

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it is that damn steep. and It actually wasn't enough. I was using the brakes a good amount too. I don;t know where you are, but Its worth a trip up there. First the roads through the White mountains are amazing but the trip to the top is a blast. I really wasn;t expecting it to be anything close to what it was.

zeontestpilot > STANDARD6SPEED 07/14/2014 at 11:09

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It's what happens when your parents think a mountain bike is a good bike for you when you're growing up. I played with the different speeds, and I noticed the effects of them, but didn't understand it. I prefer bmx bikes honestly. I still have the one I bought in high school (7+ years ago), a Dyno GT Compe.

I was the kid who tried to jump off of everything with his bike. Ramps, tree roots, you get creative. I mean, how else am I suppose to get a sprained ankle and shatter the back my shoulder? :)

And no, BS in game and simulation production. My dad is the civil engineer, so I get my 'curiosity' on how things work from him.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:10

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The torque at the wheels decreases, yes, as a function of how much torque the engine is giving the transmission.

With each sequential numbered gear, the torque available to the wheels compared to the amount provided by the engine decreases. Oversimplified, a 4-speed car might go from 12x the torque of the engine at the wheels, 1/12 the rotating speed in first to 9x- 1/9, 6x - 1/6, and 3x 1/3 in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. As you can imagine, 12x the torque of the engine pushes a car quite hard forward, 3x not so much.

Your wheels will always be rotating more slowly than the engine (thank your rear axle), but the less the torque is multiplied/speed reduced, the harder it is for the engine to push the car.

If you nail your pedal to the floor in first, the engine doesn't have a lot of resistance, so it spins up very fast, which in turn allows it to make more power. This will be a lot of torque at the wheels, but not necessarily that much speed at the wheels. If you hit the gas in fourth, it's trying to accelerate higher and higher to make more power, but a portion of that power is used in making the wheels go very fast, and the resistance it encounters makes it harder to get up to a high speed where it'll make a lot of power.

A lot of cars actually don't have that sort of 12x/9x/6x/3x sort of progression - they might be more like 12x/8x/4x/3x. The speed difference between the highest gears will be less, because having them tall for cruising makes sense. That's the second part of why when you're shifting you rev over a smaller range shifting 3->4 than 2->3 or 1->2.

Clown Shoe Pilot > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:13

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If you want to cheat a little, look up a set from the 90's - 8880 Super Car. It's got 4 wheel drive, 4 wheel steering, and a working manual transmission. It doesn't have a clutch, but the shift lever does work like a real one and it's got different ratios.

zeontestpilot > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 11:15

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Well, the inner-workings of the manual have been on my mind for a couple weeks now. I'm a thinker, and this was my most current curiosity. My mind wanders and stops to think, "what about this?", "how does this work?".

This year I've gone through a bit, some examples are "how does a differential work", "how does a awd/4wd work", and "does bigfoot live in my area". I got answers to all of them except the last one...um, still researching....

STANDARD6SPEED > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:15

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Very cool. Yeah, I am a Comm. Major (granted an Automotive Tech. minor), basically all you need is interest and a bit of time and it will make perfect sense.

miadaman? yes please > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:16

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Yeap, dyno chart will show you the engine's output at any specific rpm. Knowing that, you'll be able to tell what's the most efficient range of rpm (whether for acceleration or mileage) that you need to shift at for that car. Gearing ratio just tell you how fast you can go in each gear.

It's especially important for cars with boosts (turbos, vtecs) as they usually kick in at different rpms.

wkiernan > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:21

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Basically you can choose what gear you want to be in by sound and vibration. Choose too low a gear and the engine is revving too high and sounds like it's working too hard; choose too high a gear and the engine lugs (turns too slowly) and sounds and feels like it's straining.

zeontestpilot > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 11:25

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Ha, I figured someone has to ask. And if anything, posting this question documents this into the annals of the internet, for future generations to read.

I mean, that's how I discovered Jalopnik in the first place. I was researching something (probably about manuals) and it led me to an old article. Actually, my interest in cars wouldn't be so great if it wasn't for Jalopnik and Oppo. Reading the posts made me discover that there is a whole world I knew nothing about, on something I use everyday. So naturally I wanted to learn more, understand the basics of what happens inside the car.

But that's me. I enjoy learning something new.

OPPOsaurus WRX > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:28

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yea i don;t think i actually would have taken the dive into buying a manual if it wasn;t for Jalopnik/OPPO. I certainly wouldn;t have gotten a change to drive a rally Subaru, but i think thats a story for another day.

Übel > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 11:32

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Teeny point: in a 6 speed, skipping is pretty normal. It's just a lot of gears! I typically go 1-2-3-4-6 when running up to 60mph.

zeontestpilot > McMike 07/14/2014 at 11:33

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I commuted with one guy to school, and I noticed that when coming up to a red light, he puts the car in neutral and lets it drift. I also was given a ride by another friend, and he downshifted before coming up to a red light. Both of those guys having been driving a stick for a while as well. So I got two different ways to do it. So is the [less expensive in the long run] way that should be done, on a straight, flat road, is to use the brakes and put it in neutral (with the clutch in, of course).

Quick question, the engine braking thing, would that be true for a car with autostick/select shift? I'm curious...

thebigbossyboss > Übel 07/14/2014 at 11:34

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Oh. I knew they skipped often in the big rigs with 18 speeds.

zeontestpilot > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 11:39

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I was curious about manuals before jalop/oppo, now after joining I REALLY want one.

But it's on the back burner now because my wife won't let our main car be a manual. And I'm still trying to figure out if I want to trade in my current car for a better one (with better mpg), or wait a yr and a half to pay it off and get a 2nd car (which would be a manual). There's pros and cons to each.

Übel > thebigbossyboss 07/14/2014 at 11:39

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Yeah. I really only ever use 5th if I'm cruising at around 45 or for going up a long, shallow hill.

zeontestpilot > STANDARD6SPEED 07/14/2014 at 11:44

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Yep, I'm slowly gathering the knowledge. :)

Cé hé sin > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 11:46

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Actually you can start in fifth or indeed sixth if the urge should strike. You just rev furiously and slip the clutch equally furiously. No, this really isn't a good idea.

cazzyodo > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 12:05

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I did the FIRST VEX Challenge in high school and tried to make one for our robot...that was difficult. I wasn't allowed to butcher pieces I needed :(

Would have been awesome to get into a shoving match with another robot, change into a low gear and just plow it out of the way.

McMike > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 12:20

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I commuted with one guy to school, and I noticed that when coming up to a red light, he puts the car in neutral and lets it drift.

When I stop for a stop sign/light, I just brake in whatever gear I'm in and right before the engine stalls, I put the clutch in. I'll put it in neutral for that last 10 feet or so. I never coast in neutral any other time. I think coasting in neutral is a bad habit.

Some will tell you that it's your duty to sit at the light in first gear with the clutch in. I don't think that's necessary, if you pay attention to the light and are able to put it in first and get moving as soon as that light turns green.

I also was given a ride by another friend, and he downshifted before coming up to a red light. Both of those guys having been driving a stick for a while as well. So I got two different ways to do it. So is the [less expensive in the long run] way that should be done, on a straight, flat road, is to use the brakes and put it in neutral (with the clutch in, of course).

Your other friend is wasting his time. Brakes stop the car.

Disclaimer: I have a car or two that has a neat overrun sound, so there are times I will row through the gears while coming to a stop so I can listen to it. It is also believed that the sound of overrun and brappy backfires can help attract a mate and scare off other suitors. These myths, while not likely to be true, have not been proven to be 100% false yet.

If you can heel & toe and match revs to perform these downshifts smoothy, this is an accepted supplement to slowing your car down, as long as you admit that you're doing it for fun, and it serves no other purpose while on the street.**

Quick question, the engine braking thing, would that be true for a car with autostick/select shift? I'm curious...

As long as your auto-stick-flappy-selct-a-shift can hold a specific gear, then yes, this will have the same effect. However, there is nothing smooth about it, and you should be embarrassed thinking about doing it in an auto unless you're holding speed on a steep grade.

**In road racing, you need to be in the correct gear before you start your turn-in to the apex. The only way to make this possible, is if you downshift while in your braking zone. Performance heel and toe shifting with rev matching blip questions should come MUCH MUCH later in your quest for knowledge.

OPPOsaurus WRX > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 12:22

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yea my wife didn;t want me to get a manual but I was able to convince her. It fits the kids seats and the double stroller so she allowed it. Now the kids cry if we have to take her car. Its fun but if you have to deal with a lot of traffic you might want it to be a secondary car. I would not want to have to drive to boston and back every day with it.

zeontestpilot > OPPOsaurus WRX 07/14/2014 at 12:59

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Yeah, I commute 40 mins a day one way, highway travel mostly. But I do go into Lansing, and it changes from day to day what the traffic is like. So its hard to gauge it. But with a avg mpg of 18/24, it tends to suck the gas out quicker than I'd like it too. Especially when I know that other cars [mockingly] get better mpg.

zeontestpilot > McMike 07/14/2014 at 13:18

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I'm glad I mentioned it this then!

Actually, the other friend, was driving a '12 mustang, and we were in Fairfax Virginia. Its quite hilly there, so that might of been why. I asked him about it, but I think he defended his position.

I asked about the "auto-stick-flappy-selct-a-shift" because my next car may very well be an automatic, my wife won't have the main car as a stick. So autostick might be the closest I'd get until we can get a 2nd car.

In the future I may ask about racing and all that goes with it. But I wouldn't feel right about it unless I did some personal research first. I tend to fill my thirst for knowledge online, then come and ask oppo if I have questions or didn't understand something. It wouldn't be fair if I just asked away, :).

feather-throttle-not-hair > Übel 07/14/2014 at 13:34

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yeah, 5th doesn't get a lot of love unless you live in the country, with a lot of 45-50 mph limit 2 lane highways.

McMike > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 14:01

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LOL. There are no steep grades anywhere near us (I'm also in FFXCO) that would overheat brakes to require a lower gear to hold speed.

Anything other than the answer, "It's fun" to the "Why are you downshifting to slow down?" question is just macho boy-racer bullshit*. It's simply not required on the street.

It is fun, though - and I often do it when I'm in one of the fun cars. I do it when I feel racy and driving at 2/10ths while I carve those 25mph apexes in my neighborhood. I heel & toe in the Vanagon if I get a green left arrow while approaching the light. "Smooth, sweet, downshift - barely felt it at all..." I'll say as I go WOT and tear through the intersection at 15mph.

*I'm not saying your friend is trying to pull one over on you, he may actually believe what he's doing is a good habit, and it's "saving the brakes," or something like that because that's what his older brother told him, who heard it from his uncle, who read it in Playboy Magazine interview of Don Prudhomme.

zeontestpilot > McMike 07/14/2014 at 14:09

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I don't know, I heard that Don Prudhomme is a reliable source....

I can't wait til I get a manual car. I already decided I want my daughter (who's 1 yrs old now), to learn to drive stick when shes older.

McMike > zeontestpilot 07/14/2014 at 14:11

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LOL, I picked him because he's a drag racer, and probably wouldn't have much to say about downshifting and braking.

bob and john > zeontestpilot 07/15/2014 at 14:23

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overthinking it.
you get going in the first gear. then you go faster in the second. then even faster in 3rd. etc etc.

there is no "ideal" gear. for best fuel econ, u want to keep ur speed up and ur RPM low. so u try and stay in as high a gear as you can. you want speed? you change gear to keep the engine in the sweet spot (max hp/torque) the engine itself is limited in operating range. when you reach it, change gear.