#GiveAShift

"KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs" (kusabisensei) 06/25/2014 at 10:25 • Filed to: None

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Because if you don't, your Mini Hardtop S with an automatic will lose a drag race by a nose to a Mini Clubman S with a manual.

Milky > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 10:27

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Is this like the one case where a manual is still faster?

/flame suit on.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 06/25/2014 at 10:31

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Just because your SLK with a rubbish badge has an automatic like your old toyota you think all cars should have them, don't you?

/shotsfired

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 06/25/2014 at 10:36

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Nope, I want a manual for my next car. I can just admit DSGs(dual clutches, whatever you call them) are faster in almost every case.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Milky 06/25/2014 at 10:36

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Jimmy, it sounds like you need to become a manual...

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 06/25/2014 at 10:38

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Might want to tell hyundai/kia to get their shit together. The DCT in the veloster is an appalling heap of horse wank. I describe my jetta's shifter as "like someone stuck a dowel rod in a vat of oatmeal" and yet it had no issues shifting faster and more smoothly than the dual clutch in the veloster I drove. The "power shift" in the focus is about as smooth as a crash landing in a 737 too.

Milky > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 10:45

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I only made it through half that video, but either way IMO the point of a manual is fun not faster 0-60 times. See Ferrari, Porsche, M, etc.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Milky 06/25/2014 at 10:47

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It also should mean, according to the marketing department at Mini: "enjoying a lower starting price, better MPG, increased connection with your MINI and more definition in your left calf. "

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 06/25/2014 at 10:49

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That sounds like a Hyandai/ Kia problem. Their last gen of cars seems to be good on paper but missing the final 20%.

Those Porsche stats though ….

Milky > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 10:54

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Damn, how bad are Mini autos? Slower and worse MPGs … thats kind of just appalling. Boxster for comparison.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Milky 06/25/2014 at 11:02

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Their autos are torque converter Aisin automatics. Torque converter autos will almost always have issues being slightly slower and sucking more energy to run them than a manual or a DCT for the same number of gears (i.e. you can't compare a 6 speed manual directly to an 8 speed auto box).

The way BMW is getting around this issue is having manual 6 speeds and automatic 8 speed ZF gearboxes. The extra two speeds allows the gearbox to extract slightly more efficiency (i.e. keep the engine in the efficient RPM range) during acceleration and cruise over the 6 speed manual.

Milky > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 11:25

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Who says you can't compare them? If I have two choices and one happens to be a faster 8spd auto I'm not going to say "oh I can't compare it to a 6spd manual".

I'm not a manual hater, just saying DCTs are generally faster these days.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Milky 06/25/2014 at 11:38

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Notice I said "For the same number of gears". In a comparison between a torque converter six speed auto and a six speed manual, the manual will generally be on top of most metrics. (Mini is a good comparison choice because you could get the same car with the same engine tuning hooked to a 6 speed Aisin auto or a 6 speed manual box. The manuals got better EPA ratings, were slightly faster [until the F56], and were cheaper [the Aisin automatic was an extra $1250])

Also, you need to differentiate between automatics that have torque converters and planetary gearsets and automated manuals (DCTs or otherwise).

So what's happened? Because people won't buy manuals, they've had to resort to dropping more planetary gearsets in the slushboxes. So now we have up to 9 speed auto boxes, in order to get them to be more efficient than a traditional clutch and gearbox.

I don't have anything against DCTs. I do think the planetary autobox is a worse choice than a manual or a DCT. I'd take a DCT over a planetary autobox in a performance car, but depending on the car, it would be hard to decide between a DCT and a manual box.

Milky > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 11:45

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So neither of us hates the other option, were just arguing in the middle for some reason, lol.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Milky 06/25/2014 at 12:07

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The problem is that people tend to conflate all types of automatic transmissions together, like you did with the Porsche statistics.

There is a distinct difference between a planetary gearbox and a DCT, even though a computer is doing the shifting automatically in both setups.

Until recently, the only automatics were planetary gearboxes. When Oppoites whine about autoboxes, they mean planetary gearboxes almost exclusively.

A DCT works like standard constant mesh gearbox, except the dog clutches and two input shaft clutches are controlled by a computer.

This is a standard constant mesh gearbox:

It has one input shaft (so one input clutch), and the selector forks move to engage or disengage the dog clutches on the gearsets.

A DCT looks like this in a schematic:

Each of the two clutches controls a different input shaft, the gearsets of which are interleaved (so when you shift, control passes between the two clutches). The outputs of the two gearpacks are brought together with a planetary gearset (or similar) to provide the output.

So think about the first planetary diagram. In that one, the ring gear is applying power to the set, and the planets are driven. It could also be possible to hold the ring gear still, and drive the sun gear, and still get the same output direction from the planets.

This has been Sensei's Transmissions 101 post. Perhaps I'll share it to the front page of Oppo.

mcseanerson > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 12:15

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Don't forget besides planetary slushboxes we also hate cvts.

Honestly I'll take a slushbox over a cvt anyday.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > mcseanerson 06/25/2014 at 12:27

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If CVTs didn't have issues with slipping under torque, I could maybe see it as an advantage in a small utility vehicle with a 3 or 4 cylinder small turbo diesel engine... but I am not sure a CVT would stand up to that torque. Diesels and CVTs are not great performance options, but could be utilitarian... but only if they would be bullet-proof grade reliable, and I am not so sure about that.

For anything approaching an intent for driving enjoyment... CVT is the wrong choice, and diesels are usually too narrow in terms of power-band, and aren't quick to rev.

gas or natural gas engines, manual gearboxes, or automated-clutch gearboxes with direct mechanical connection from the engine to the ground, without a torque converter fluid coupling between the two. Maybe an engine-generator power plant and electric traction motors in a mild-hybrid setup with a minimum of inefficient and heavy batteries might have some potential... but I would keep the direct mechanical connection at higher and sustained speeds, where even electric drive systems start to run into efficiency, current demand, and heat problems.

mcseanerson > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/25/2014 at 12:30

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Glad to see someone else who recognizes that the Chevy Volt drivetrain was not a betrayal but just good engineering. If they hadn't applied and engine power to the drive wheels they would be just purposely wasting energy.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > mcseanerson 06/25/2014 at 12:33

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Hmm, low power capacity, appliance like characteristics, general malaise...

#WhatsNotToHate

Decay buys too many beaters > mcseanerson 06/25/2014 at 12:36

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Hey, speak for yourself! I love my CVT

Milky > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 06/25/2014 at 12:37

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Ha, I feel all the effort to put that together is wasted on me … because I know the difference. I called the Porsche an auto because you can still leave it in auto mode and it doesn't have a 3rd pedal.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > mcseanerson 06/25/2014 at 15:03

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There is a lot to criticize about the Chevy Volt, most of which centers around the chemical aspects of battery storage of electricity, volatility of lithium substrate batteries, and the corporate, economic, and political issues surrounding taxpayer subsidies for such a car, but direct kinetic drive efficiency at cruising speed is not one of those drawbacks.

Criticism of reverting to kinetic drive for cruising speed is not based on physics or engineering understanding... it is an emotional and political argument based on knee-jerk response, and lack of understanding how a hybrid drive system works, and what it's limitations are.

Converting kinetic energy to electrical energy, and back to kinetic energy again has it's disadvantages, especially at high sustained speeds when electrical current demands, and waste heat production in the entire electrical drive system both rise significantly.

De-coupling engine speed for steady electrical generation from stop and go ground speed propulsion has it's merits, where electric traction motors have efficiency superiority at low speeds... at high sustained speeds for longer periods of time, the energy equation results change, and the double energy conversion becomes more wasteful than beneficial.

Further down the engineering road, efficient diesels, next-generation wankel rotaries, or even micro-turbines, maybe even fueled by abundant natural gas supplies rather than refined gasoline, possibly hold even more power-efficiency and economically affordable gains as electrical generation and high-speed kinetic drive energy sources. Battery capacitance and safety advancements may also help, but batteries still have to be charged from another energy source, either on-board, or somewhere else on the aging electric power grid, without bursting into lithium fueled infernos, if damaged.

mcseanerson > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/25/2014 at 15:11

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Man I just love reading your replies. I love seeing electric drivetrains because that allows for flexibility in energy sources and I feel it allows us to experiment and try new things and see what actually works in the real world.